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Are boys 'broken'?

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posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: Thirty6BelowZero

Keeping the men tame
Ahahahaha

How very sharia of you




posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:12 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: loam

“Toxic masculinity” is PC speak for I have no clue what I’m talking about. But to play that game, remember that toxic masculinity has always been raised by toxic femininity. Mothers, teachers, babysitters are mostly female, and they have influence and access to people during their most important days of learning.


True... If I was looking for a babysitter for my kids, I'd immediately pass up any male without hesitation. Same weirdness would come over me if my child's Kindergarten or 1st grade teacher was a male. I look at women as those who nurture. I don't know, maybe I'm putting too much stock in them as the ones who nurture since I should see both genders as equal. Maybe I shouldn't think so highly of women and should view them like I view a man who complains all the time. That's what it seems like I'm supposed to do anyways.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:13 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: loam

“Toxic masculinity” is PC speak for I have no clue what I’m talking about. But to play that game, remember that toxic masculinity has always been raised by toxic femininity. Mothers, teachers, babysitters are mostly female, and they have influence and access to people during their most important days of learning.


I'm really having trouble parsing this.

Could you expound on 'Toxic Femininity', especially as it relates to raising boys?


Im being a little cheeky, but as I stated, women have access to and influence over boys during their most impressionable years. We live in a matriarchy.


Ah, ok that makes more sense, thanks for the clarification.

Anecdotally my mother and other mothers I've known/know generally combat masculine tropes (like its ok for boys to cry and want to share their feelings, along with doing typically non-masculine things like cleaning/cooking and caring/nurturing for others) whereas usually its fathers (mine included) that pushed prerogatives like 'man-up' and 'stop bitching about your feelings' that from the sound of it supported 'toxic masculinity' as its being used in this case.

Do you or anyone else have contradictory experiences you can share that support mothers contributing to toxic masculinity?
edit on 08am18famTue, 20 Feb 2018 10:14:00 -0600America/ChicagoTue, 20 Feb 2018 10:14:00 -0600 by Wayfarer because: spelling



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: bulwarkz

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: loam


Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity

After 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz was accused of gunning down 17 people at a Florida high school last week, comedian Michael Ian Black started a thread on Twitter that sparked a vitriolic debate about the role of gender in gun violence. It began with the tweet, "Deeper even than the gun problem is this: boys are broken."

Black's tweet has been liked nearly 65,000 times. In an interview with NPR on Sunday, he elaborated.

"I think it means that there is something going on with American men that is giving them the permission and space to commit violence," he said. "And one of the main things we focus on correctly is guns and mental health, but I think deeper than that is a problem, a crisis in masculinity."



As a parent of a young white adolescent male, this kind of thinking makes me want to perpetrate some toxic masculinity of my own on people who subscribe to this perspective.

What could possibly go wrong with making young impressionable boys feel there is something inherently wrong with them? And let's be clear, it's not just restricted to their sex. The cultural message includes race and sexuality too.

I can't imagine what it would have been like to have been raised in today's climate.

I wonder where we will be in 10 to 15 years from now, when the current crop of 8-18 year olds reaches adulthood after an entire childhood of being told that if you are white, straight, and male (actually you only need to be one of the three to be demonized) there is something inherently bad about you.

Spiting nails over this repulsive nonsense.



The whole whoa as me white identy crisis is rediculous.

It's as much propaganda and irrational as safe spaces and ultra leftist propaganda.

It's snowflake syndrome. How about you fight irational behavior with sanity. Not oh i feel so sorry for myself because I am attacked for being white. Which isn't real anyway. It's a media presentation of radical idiology.

How about teaching your kid about resilience instead of feeling sorry for himself. That would be a start.

You mean, destroy public schools and homeschool your children if you want control of indoctri???, I mean, education


No.

I mean stop whining and take control. Get off Facebook and get involved in your public school and policy. Stop creating a wedge between you and someone who may not think the same and create rational compromises.


I've found that "getting involved in your public school" does not in fact create a circumstance where rational compromise is possible. Public schools are indoctrination machines, and the much of the staff, administration and even those on school boards are developmentally stuck at about 15. They highly resent any outside opinions that differ with their own and use the system to shut them down very quickly. And god help you if you try calling them on their juvenile bull$hit. They'll try to take your kids.


I haven't found that. I teach youth wrestling. Literal resilience training.

I think the point of view you are projecting is a victim mentality.

How about lobby for vouchers where you can put your child in a school with your beliefs?

Or do a better job as a parent having meaningful discussions at night at the dinner table?

Or don't. Blame the left for everything. It's surely a lot easier.


I'm on the left, I'm not blaming the left. I'm not sure where you got that. Weird.

I'm also not sure where you are getting a victim mentality because I am willing to acknowledge why people aren't willing to stand up, or even just get involved. Also weird. If you make too much of a fuss, they will absolutely leverage social services.


As an aside. How on earth do you think that you know what sort of meaningful (or not) conversations I have with my kids?

Do you work for a school? You seem awfully defensive and assumptive. You sound a lot like those folks when I deal with them. Dismissive, condescending, angry and assumptive with even the mildest of criticism.


How do I sound like the people at the schools you deal with?

Could you give an example is or it a reaction to a different opinion to yours? Do you think you would qualify as angry, assumptive, and dismissive?.

Yes I work with kids a public school. I do not work there its for free as a wrestling coach.

I see a whole lot of teachers with a master's degree willing to work for fairly low pay to teach kids. I see teachers as frustrated as parents. I don't see a monolith.

Find your allies. If the school is that bad try a magnet school or something else.

I have moved my children because of safety concerns. It's possible.



I live in a town with 1500 people. The nearest other school is 50 miles away. We do not have a lot of options. I don't know what a "magnet" school is. We have been trying to find a job to relocate for three years. We haven't had issues until she got into high school, where the school is in fact a culture of toxic masculinity. All of senior administration is male, and most of the teachers at male, including one who is in his 50s and dated a 15 year old girl. Administration looks the other way. She has been physically assaulted twice and harassed nearly every day by a group of boys. These boys are all on the football team, and the principal is the football coach. For example, when I went in to complain he was dismissive and condescending, and when I didn't back down he started yelling at me and told me that my "body language" made him angry, even though I didn't actually say anything provocative.

When I still didn't back down and told him that he was modelling bullying behavior and I could see why these boys are behaving this way, he started screaming at me and said that I was no longer allowed into the school because of my "temperament". He had to back down from that because we went to his boss, but here, it is a monolith. There are no allies. Other parents have pulled their girls out of the school and home schooled.

I do think that you are assumptive (regarding my situation and political leanings) condescending (regarding your snide comment about sitting at the dinner table). This is how you sound just like them. Juvenile, dismissive, condescending and assumptive.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: loam

The language itself is a threat. You do not need to follow through with it. I never said that you would either. The language is a threat, it is predictable and understandable that you don't want to see it that way, for many reasons. However, that sort of language does signal that expressing threats is appropriate, and for boys (and these days, often men) who don't quite understand how words can turn to violence it reinforces that expressing violence and threatening people is ok. It's not. It is divisive language at best and modeling aggressive behavior at it's worst.

You made a mistake because you are coming from a fearful place for your son. You expressed this as threatening language. It was wrong. You do not want to admit it. It was wrong, morally and counter productive in the end, I called you on it and it has made you defensive and angry. And at this point, it is only a distraction from your overall point. If you want to continue to fixate on it so that you can convince yourself that you weren't wrong and hypocritical for saying it that's fine, but I'm not going to respond to it. You are derailing your own thread with your defensiveness.



Riddled with so many assumptions, it's hard to even know where to begin.

But I see we will need to agree to disagree on the importance of my expression.




posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

Yes. #MeToo



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:18 AM
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posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: vinifalou

originally posted by: loam

"I think it means that there is something going on with American men that is giving them the permission and space to commit violence," he said.



Yes, it's called Hollywood and lack of empathy.

If only ONE person had extended his arm to that kid when he was going through a rough time... Things could've go differently and these 17 kids could be alive right now.


An entire family opened up their heart and home to him. Then he shat upon their kindness by destroying 17 other lives.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: Thirty6BelowZero
a reply to: Wayfarer

Yes. #MeToo


C'mon man, I'm not calling you out, I asked for examples in a reasonable fashion, the least you can do is formulate your response in a more understandable manner than a hashtag. Please explain.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:21 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
I blame man-spreading.

And skinny jeans, I mean really. Skinny jeans?



What better way to show off how tiny your chicken legs are? The next best thing for that would be tights, and then nothing.

Skinny jeans.... *scoff* *sigh*



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:21 AM
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a reply to: redhorse

Juvenile as well now..

Well perception is a funny thing. It's easy to believe things are impossible and get stuck in the mud.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:23 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy
I blame man-spreading.

And skinny jeans, I mean really. Skinny jeans?


Fun story. A while back I got hired to work at some American Eagle subsidiary store in my local mall. One of the requirements was for every employee to wear skinny jeans and sandals at work. I'm 230 lbs and not in the greatest of shape. I'm the type of person that people get concerned about when they wear tight clothing. So yeaaaaa... Long story shot, I didn't take the job.


We might not agree on anything, but you just earned a notch in my book for not wearing skinny jeans.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

I'll say that while I could come up with several real-life examples of women engaging in toxic parenting, I've never seen it as a gender issue. I see it as a parenting issue, regardless of the parent's sex or circumstances.

In that regard, it leaves me wondering whether there is any merit to thinking in terms of toxic male or female behavior? Maybe there is just toxic behavior attributable to a thousand different reasons, the least of which is sex.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: loam
a reply to: Wayfarer

I'll say that while I could come up with several real-life examples of women engaging in toxic parenting, I've never seen it as a gender issue. I see it as a parenting issue, regardless of the parent's sex or circumstances.

In that regard, it leaves me wondering whether there is any merit to thinking in terms of toxic male or female behavior? Maybe there is just toxic behavior attributable to a thousand different reasons, the least of which is sex.



You don't get to form PAC's or get the clout of a lobby if you aren't carving out an identity to represent. "Toxic human" just won't get as much traction as "toxic masculinity".



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: loam
a reply to: luthier

I'm still trying to decide for myself the merit of this point. Does toxic femininity exist? Not sure. But I do agree with the broader point that the absence of a nuclear family tends to make children more susceptible to problems. But included with that notion, I would add the loss of the extended family and community that shares in the responsibility of raising healthy children.

100% agree with your electronic saturation point. The science there is very clear.


When I think of toxic femininity, here's what I think of:

Working to support the family was once seen as the man's job so that the woman didn't have to get out and work. Now that's seen as the man doing it because women were incapable.

Cooking, sewing, cleaning, raising the kids was once seen as the woman's job while the man busted his ass everyday to make money. Anything she couldn't handle, the man handled for her. Now that's seen as men thinking women should only be cleaning and breeding.

Opening the door for a woman used to be seen as gentlemanly. Now it's seen as the man doing it because he doesn't think a woman can do it.

Paying for dinner used to be the man's job. Now it's seen as the man only doing it because he thinks the woman is broke and using him for his money.

I was raised by a gentleman to be a gentleman. When I was 34, my now fiance was 21. She was shocked the first few months we were together because I would open doors for her, pay for our dates, etc. Now she's spoiled to it, but that's another story. The point is, we do those all of those so the woman doesn't have to, all she has to do nurture the children. She don't even have to cook. But that's all been spoiled and tainted because toxic femininity has taught these once strong women who depended on the man that depended on them as they depended on each other and the kids depended on their advice and raising, that they don't need some man doing everything because he's just putting them down and viewing them as property.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Roger that. 100% agree.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:42 AM
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Keep breeding like common beasts of the field & you will always be plagued with the defective 30% who are capable of such atrocities.

K~



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: redhorse

Juvenile as well now..

Well perception is a funny thing. It's easy to believe things are impossible and get stuck in the mud.


I am not stuck in the mud. I am fed up though. I am brawling with the school because if I don't she is in danger. If I don't they will absolutely make me a target as they have done to other people in the community. I can afford an attorney, so they are only willing to go so far.

I was able to identify that you are closely associated with a school based upon your behavioral cues that are in fact, dismissive, condescending, assumptive and yes, juvenile. Not anything else, just those cues, a few sentences that are nasty, rude, and just like nearly every school administrator I have to deal with. Either, your environment is affecting your behavior, or it could just be that certain personalities are drawn to work in and with schools. I don't know. In my experience, which now includes you, these are not reasonable people that are capable of self examination or even self control. That should tell you something, but I don't think that it will. I hope to god that you don't talk to kids the way that you talk to me though.

All of these people see themselves as hero's. I'm sure you do too. They, and you clearly are very invested in that narrative, and anything that threatens that self image is squashed with demeaning or aggressive behavior. Also, they are usually only hero's for some kids. The right ones. The ones that they like for whatever reason. For others they are the villain. I'm sure you are too.

I think at this point we are just sniping at each other and we are being rude with the derail. If you want to continue, pm me.
edit on 20-2-2018 by redhorse because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Thirty6BelowZero

Way to continue to miss my point. It's like you believe all of history is comprised of only your lifetime or something and refuse to understand why certain traditions are the way they are or why certain things considered "disrespectful" are considered so while not considered so for the opposite gender doing the same thing.

To be honest, I didn't expect to even need to explain my point to you. It's not even arguable that women have had a #ty experience throughout history being told there is something wrong with them just because they are women.


Where do you get this from? When were men telling women there was something wrong with them? I'm not saying that there weren't cases of this throughout history, but when has it ever been widespread? Women had their skills, men had theirs. Period. Now we have to view them the as equal even though skill sets are completely different. We're not equal to them, they're not equal to us. Both genders have their own strengths and weaknesses, as has been throughout the history of mankind.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: redhorse

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I myself was in high-school in the late 90's, and the swing was already in full effect. A large part of this I think (and you may not agree with me which is fine), is what some boys are taught from a young age. Boys in particular are taught, and I know for sure every teacher, guidance councilor, and figure in my life aside from my father taught this (I suspect it's the same these days), is that even if you're being bullied you don't stand up for yourself. Rather than stand up for yourself you're supposed to tell an adult and get help resolving the conflict.

Now when I was coming up I followed the rules and went to tell an adult about being bullied, what did that get me? Absolutely nothing. Either outright dismissal or a half-assed attempt at conflict resolution, which not only did nothing to resolve the conflict, but also ticked off the bully even further. So not only did it not stop, it ramped up in intensity and frequency. Something can be said for admonishing the bullies and laying the blame squarely upon them, I think this is wrong.

Should 90% of the blame be on the bullies and their support structure in not attempting to tone down this behavior, absolutely. At the same time, if you continue to play the victim it only compounds the problem. The victim now sees they have no recourse, the adults won't help, and no one has taught you another way of handling the conflict. I would put it upon anyone to undergo years of bullying and being ostracized yet still manage to come out as a functional human being, that's not going to happen. This now leaves you with a kid who one day, maybe tomorrow maybe 20 years from now, who is going to snap and when they do it's going to be ugly.

They may choose suicide, they may choose to be abusive to a partner, they may choose to self medicate with drugs and alcohol, or they may with the nuclear option of taking out as many as they can before offing themselves. None of these are acceptable outcomes, and most, I say most because there is always a certain amount that cannot be helped regardless, yet most of these can be helped by being taught one important life lesson. The life lesson is that it's perfectly okay to stand up for yourself, not only okay but it should be encouraged.

By not standing up for yourself you end up with an outcome like I previously stated, however by standing up for yourself you are empowering yourself against your attackers. Being bullied? Get up in your bullies face, show them you won't be their entertainment. If it comes to a fight, then it comes to a fight, it needs to play out. You also need to show kids that it's okay to lose, because that will happen, you will come across a bully that's just going to pound the tar out of you. This is okay, you pick yourself up and move on. Hopefully you've shown the bully and other bullies you won't take it lying down. If it doesn't, repeat.

Now you may catch some beatings, I know I did for a bit, yet at the same time (all things being equal) you'll go on to win some. When that happens your bully will leave you alone, other bullies will see this and see that it's more trouble than it's worth.

I know a lot of people will say violence doesn't solve anything, I'll respond with you probably haven't been bullied and if you have you didn't stand up for yourself. Because I for one can tell you it actually does solve the bully problem, and not only that, it solves the self esteem problem of the bullied. You can hold your head up high and know that you weren't just some other jacked up kids whipping boy. In experiencing that you'll grow up more well adjusted, more confident in yourself, and less likely to pass bully behaviors on to your kids.

I know some folks will decry this, and totally disagree with me, that's fine. I really can only speak to personal experience with this, and view these events through the eyes of myself growing up. I was also raised middle class, and when I lived with my dad there were guns around that could be accessed. The thought didn't cross my mind once that was an acceptable out to my troubles.

Edit: School did punish me whenever this happened, however dad did not. I won't say I was rewarded, but you could tell that he wasn't upset with me, he was upset that the school allowed the environment to flourish and continue to propagate.
edit on 2/20/18 by Hypntick because: Clarification



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