Are boys 'broken'?

When I mention to a friend the same point of this op, that most of the worlds evil and violence is done by men.

He says, but the woman raise the men.

a reply to: sapien82

You are right of course, but I always feel that not correcting such idiocy merely serves to promote it.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: Wayfarer
a reply to: sapien82

You are also letting hyperbolic emotion get the better of you as well. Nobody is saying there aren't disaffected and downtrodden white males. Rather that on the aggregate there are proportionally more non-whites in those criteria than whites.

Nobody is saying to not help ALL the disaffected and downtrodden. But to assume that white males are in fact being persecuted over others is blatantly pandering to a (perceived or actual) persecution complex.

You might not have said it but you belittled the fact into non existence with your previous statement, this is partly why people wonder if they are broken, because of people like you pretending there isn't a problem.

This is a contradiction in terms. How can I 'belittled the fact into non existence' without saying it?

I'm not pretending there isn't a problem, I'm correcting your emotionally driven misconceptions.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Wayfarer

...
I mean most of your reply to me was more pertinent to Sprocket!
I was arguing that yes there is a obvious difference in treatment of ethnic minorities by western society compared to the treatment of white ethnicities
that is obvious! there is no denying it, I even stated that the systems we live in are inherently racist !
however there are also racists who will blatantly disregard that white people can be oppressed simply because they are white and privileged ...

You know, after re-reading your post I believe I was conflating some of what you were saying based off Sproket's previous posts. I apologize.

a reply to: Wayfarer


Stop trying to see emotions and try and understands what the words mean in the order they were written, there's a good chap.
That's assuming of course, you aren't trying to protect your own prejudice by deliberately avoiding engagement with what has been written.

He's talking about socialization not 'wrong because you are born a boy'. The same way we are socialized to think blue is for boy and pink is for girls. I can see how it's easy to either misunderstand or spin this into something it is not.

We do live in a white patriarchy. We do live in a culture that glamorizes violence and hyper masculinity that is constantly trying to reconcile what it used to mean to be manly (Ron Swanson memes come to mind, bearded hipster lumberjack fashion, worshiping our military, yearning for the times of American grit a'la to Make America Great Again) with a changing world that's more inclusive of other people (poc, LGBTQ, women, and immigrants).

If you are raised to believe blue is for boys and pink is for girls but society is telling you it's okay to like pink if you're a boy I can see that as simplified version of a masculinity crisis.

White men are absolutely given the space Black mentions, it's called 'boys will be boys'.

Boys are not inherently, or born, broken; he absolutely did not say that, and if that's what you took away from it then perhaps that says more about your socialization than anything else.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Wayfarer


Stop trying to see emotions and try and understands what the words mean in the order they were written, there's a good chap.
That's assuming of course, you aren't trying to protect your own prejudice by deliberately avoiding engagement with what has been written.

I'm not, I'm keen to engage with you as much as you will allow me. I think we are both mature enough to discuss this reasonably.

I've only asked for facts (statistical data or otherwise) to support assertions. While I appreciate you joining the discussion I've had a difficult time getting facts out of others to support the counter-argument (of which I would be keen to see as I'm not so thick headed as to hold my position in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary).

a reply to: Wayfarer

Hey wayfarer no worries , I often reply to the last person by accident and manage to address the whole subject or op or another person entirely , its easy enough done

originally posted by: loam

Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity

After 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz was accused of gunning down 17 people at a Florida high school last week, comedian Michael Ian Black started a thread on Twitter that sparked a vitriolic debate about the role of gender in gun violence. It began with the tweet, "Deeper even than the gun problem is this: boys are broken."

Black's tweet has been liked nearly 65,000 times. In an interview with NPR on Sunday, he elaborated.

"I think it means that there is something going on with American men that is giving them the permission and space to commit violence," he said. "And one of the main things we focus on correctly is guns and mental health, but I think deeper than that is a problem, a crisis in masculinity."

told that if you are white, straight, and male (actually you only need to be one of the three to be demonized) there is something inherently bad about you.

And yet the author said
"I think it means that there is something going on with American men that is giving them the permission and space to commit violence"

American Men.

Where did he say White or straight or say physical gender was the driver?

It's fair question what we teach our boys, how we raise them and what American Culture shows them about becoming men.

China has 5X the number of boys than the US. How many school shootings have they had in the past decade?

No one should be afraid of asking questions.

a reply to: luthier

Sorry, what you are saying is categorically false. Black panther is no more diverse than Dunkirk. Neither has a diverse cast. To claim diversity in a sea of black or white is to bastardize language.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Apologies if I've missed something obvious, but have there been any mass/school shootings perpetuated by females?

I don't like Mondays. Look it up

And op I don't envy any child or teen that has to navigate today's world. Been thinking about it a lot. My daughter is 5 so she is just starting. Could not imagine dealing with the social bull# of today.

www.statista.com...

I'm just reaffirming that while y'all are getting your panties in a bunch over the article, there seems to be evidence to suggest this is almost entirely a male driven issue. Has anyone actually bothered to understand what the article is saying or did your brains just shut off at the title?

So because 93 males has committed mass shootings, ALL boys are broken?? well, 3 females has also committed mass shootings, so ALL females must be broken too...
Maybe it is just humans that are broken?

How many incidents like the florida shootings was there if you go 100 years back? or even 50? cause maybe it is our society that is broken...

But yeah, it is so much easier to just generalize and make all out to be the same. Was he a male?, check, must be a male problem then, was he white? check, oh, must be white males then, did he have ears? check, then it most be all white males with ears that is the problem in our society, NOTHING else...

Cant have anything to do with the environment around the people that commits these horrible crimes, cause our society is perfect, right?

ETA: who raises the boys? their mothers you say? hmm, i smell a conspiracy here...

a reply to: soberbacchus

Are we at the most masculine time in our history or the least or somewhere in between?

a reply to: Willtell

Do you take the time to notice that most of the world's achievements and greatness comes from men as well?

originally posted by: IAMNOTYOU

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Apologies if I've missed something obvious, but have there been any mass/school shootings perpetuated by females?

I don't like Mondays. Look it up

And op I don't envy any child or teen that has to navigate today's world. Been thinking about it a lot. My daughter is 5 so she is just starting. Could not imagine dealing with the social bull# of today.

www.statista.com...

I'm just reaffirming that while y'all are getting your panties in a bunch over the article, there seems to be evidence to suggest this is almost entirely a male driven issue. Has anyone actually bothered to understand what the article is saying or did your brains just shut off at the title?

So because 93 males has committed mass shootings, ALL boys are broken?? well, 3 females has also committed mass shootings, so ALL females must be broken too...
Maybe it is just humans that are broken?

How many incidents like the florida shootings was there if you go 100 years back? or even 50? cause maybe it is our society that is broken...

But yeah, it is so much easier to just generalize and make all out to be the same. Was he a male?, check, must be a male problem then, was he white? check, oh, must be white males then, did he have ears? check, then it most be all white males with ears that is the problem in our society, NOTHING else...

Cant have anything to do with the environment around the people that commits these horrible crimes, cause our society is perfect, right?

ETA: who raises the boys? their mothers you say? hmm, i smell a conspiracy here...

Nobody said all boys are broken (except you).

You have listed the statistics but apparently failed to formulate a logical assessment of them. All the numbers show is that roughly 96% of these events are perpetrated by males, which implies that there are factors indicative of gender that are playing a roll...

edit: Lol, i didn't even realize but you have (unbeknownst to yourself) actually affirmed what the article in the OP was saying, that the environment in which boys are raised is likely a contributing factor to what the author labels 'toxic masculinity'.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Are we at the most masculine time in our history or the least or somewhere in between?

The least masculine time in history.

A side effect of technological progression led by the blind.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Really?

That if gender itself were a big problem, then you would expect a significant percentage of all individuals of that gender to be perpetrating school shootings.

Since we do not have anywhere near a significant percentage of half the total US population committing school shootings, then you cannot reasonably conclude that one's gender itself is a real problem, let alone, that anything to do with how society raises or views that gender is also problematic.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Wayfarer

Really?

That if gender itself were a big problem, then you would expect a significant percentage of all individuals of that gender to be perpetrating school shootings.

Since we do not have anywhere near a significant percentage of half the total US population committing school shootings, then you cannot reasonably conclude that one's gender itself is a real problem, let alone, that anything to do with how society raises or views that gender is also problematic.

This is not how statistical analysis works, and furthermore you seem to be misunderstanding the data as well. All the data shows is that 'Of those who commit school shootings' ~96% were male. What you are implying is a correlation between the data and gender as a whole, which is neither reflected in the data (at all to be precise), nor insinuated by my earlier assertions.

You would probably be better served making the claim that there is a correlation between males -> school shootings , and males -> all shootings. I trust you'll take the time to investigate and get back to us with the data to back up an assertion one way or another.

originally posted by: amazing
When we talk about Toxic Masculinity, you're talking about that ideal of the 80s movies. Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Willis, Ford, Norris...things are changing and most of our male rolemodels, at least in movies are becoming more fully formed and realistic and flawed.

I think, if anything, Toxic Maculinity is on the decline...overall. With a few exceptions.

But therein lies the 'crisis' mentioned in the OP. Today's youth are being raised by the kids who grew up with that form of toxic masculinity, and yet, today, society is becoming more fully formed as you put it so well. That's a contradiction to what their parents grew up with, so kids today are left to reconcile those two very different worlds.

a reply to: Wayfarer

What the claim is that there is something about boys that predisposes them to be school shooters so that's why so many school shootings are done by boys.

If that is the case, then there would be more school shootings because there are far more boys.

You would be better served to say that of people who snap in that way, males will be more likely to do it violently and/or murderously perhaps, but even then, that doesn't mean to say that there is a problem with boys only a difference in how genders respond to situations, and that may be no more "broken" than boys being more prone to being physically active.

originally posted by: TinySickTears

originally posted by: Thirty6BelowZero
a reply to: TinySickTears

Hey, I'd be a wild child money blowing party animal if it wasn't for my fiance taming my wild and crazy ass 5 years ago... Same for my dad if he hadn't met my mom back in 1975. Women most definitely keep men tame, and sometimes it's the other way around, just not nearly as often.

Hmmmm.
Not me.
I'm an adult though

Lol, I'm sure you are.