Challenge to those in favor of more gun control.

It's all about guns. Nothing else.

It's not about how people are treated. It's not that teenagers are assholes who will make pariahs of others because they look different, dress different, talk different, aren't on the football team, pep squad etc ad nauseam. It's not that some are pushed past their breaking point by that. It's not that every damn time we hear about something like this, we also hear "he was on the FBI's radar" or "he slipped through the cracks" or that many around them saw signs of it and did nothing.

It's just guns.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: aethertek
a reply to: network dude

in THIS ONE INSTANCE, the shooter bought a gun legally. He did have a history of mental illness that SHOULD have been enough to restrict his owning any firearms, but somehow, all that was missed.

Really, what about this guy from the NRA, his display of mindless juvenile violence should preclude him from having access to anything beyond a .177 @ 200FPS & even then he'd probably put someones eye out.

NRATV host smashes television with a sledgehammer to defend Trump

www.mediamatters.org...

K~

why are you even here, it that is the mentality you possess? This is a real issue, kids killing kids. Jesus, forget that you hate republicans for one #ing second.

Yes it is a real issue, we have idiots like the one I presented glorifying mindless violence to either solve some perceived problem or deal with his emotional stress.

So you keep whining away about your precious guns & how they're not the problem but people are.

That's right people are the problem, people who want their freedoms but none of the personal responsibility that comes with so called "freedom".

You want your guns fine, prove to me your not a threat then you get your precious guns.

K~

a reply to: aethertek


Why how generous of you, the guy who had that happen was suffering from TBI after having his Humvee blown up while he was in it, the guy was a leader in the army in control of equipment and people in a combat environment who other than balancing a check book was a fully functioning member of society post military service and you want to strip his rights from him.

a reply to: network dude

I’m not sure he legally purchased the firearm because he was a bit dishonest on 11f and 11i. Expulsion for pulling a knife on a guy over a girl would be a legal decision by a local authority and should have been reported.

a reply to: Irishhaf


We have to first figure out the "why".

Why do people want to kill?

What is the motivation?

Is it religious? ISIS and the like.
Is it political? The baseball shooter that tried to kill US republican senators.
Is it emotional? People who have poor coping skills to life's stresses.


Narrow-minded people will focus on the "gun" and ignore the "why".


That's because they are opportunists who don't want to "solve for why" but just want to take the opportunity to grab control, power, and reduce freedoms.


Is there a common factor that could determine the "why people want to kill"?

Even if there was, legislating it would be difficult.

a reply to: Irishhaf

I just heard a guy on the radio tell the truth of this.

The guns and ammo are out there.
The terrorists are out there.
The crazies and the evil are out there.

You want to stop these shootins? Harden the schools! Make them like the Airports, make them like the prisons if you have to. But understand if you want to keep the kids safe in schools your going to have to spend some money to do it properly. Your going to have to grow up and come to grips with the fact that this is a dangerous, violent society of nuts and drug dealers, gangs and terrorists. You cant keep your kids safe in giant fishbowl open campuses. This isn't the 1950's.

a reply to: Irishhaf



Well, lets see, this kid shot up a school, with a gun he bought legelaly. Paddock bought the guns he used in the Vegas shooting, legaly, the Batman CO shooter bought his guns legaly,

There are almost 100 people dead just in those three, instances all killed by legal guns. In fact as of 2015 80% of all mass shootings were done with LEGAL guns.www.nbcnews.com...



Now look, this is just crazy 80% of shootings are done with legaly obtained weapons. Also the weapons used were not the kind that you keep in your home because you want protection. These wepons were meant to KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE......


The way gun controll is now, IS NOT WORKING....a 19 year old should not be able to buy a semi automatic meant to kill humans. 18 school shootings already this year.

I don't care what you people say, unless you have a child that you send to school, you have no idea what something like this is really like. How do you think our children feel? Mine are all grown up now, but I know what its like and I am glad they are.

You make a good point. Since the definition of mental illness is subjective and fluid from year to year becoming more political than science as an art.

I propose we strike now before the climate changes and declare all democrats mentally ill and disarm them all. Gotta act before christians are declared mentally ill, me feels.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I know it really is an impossible question, with all the firearms in the country right now you could never confiscate them all, there is no way to slow down the cartels from bringing in more (once there was a demand) if you did manage to confiscate most.

If we don't address some of the underlying causes no legislation will do anything beyond make you feel good for trying.

a reply to: aethertek

Yes it is a real issue, we have idiots like the one I presented glorifying mindless violence to either solve some perceived problem or deal with his emotional stress.

You mean like BLM, ANTIFA, Bike Lock Boy and all those "peaceful" demonstrations the Left is so fond of?

I've passed local, State and Federal background checks to carry a concealed weapon in the State of Illinois.

Now prove you deserve to be allowed to drive. Any tickets? DUIs? Accidents? How do we know you're not just going to wake up one day and decide to drive through a crowd of gun owners? You sure seem to harbor an awful lot of hate for us.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Irishhaf


We have to first figure out the "why".

Why do people want to kill?

What is the motivation?

Is it religious? ISIS and the like.
Is it political? The baseball shooter that tried to kill US republican senators.
Is it emotional? People who have poor coping skills to life's stresses.


Narrow-minded people will focus on the "gun" and ignore the "why".


That's because they are opportunists who don't want to "solve for why" but just want to take the opportunity to grab control, power, and reduce freedoms.


Is there a common factor that could determine the "why people want to kill"?

Even if there was, legislating it would be difficult.

or worse of all. Killing americans as a business model.

a reply to: kurthall

I can think of 2 off the top of my head where the guns were obtained illegally, so got a link to support your 80% claim?


I know people that hunt with an AR-15, so do you have any actual suggestions or just going to throw more emotional knee jerk stories at me?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: DBCowboy

I know it really is an impossible question, with all the firearms in the country right now you could never confiscate them all, there is no way to slow down the cartels from bringing in more (once there was a demand) if you did manage to confiscate most.

If we don't address some of the underlying causes no legislation will do anything beyond make you feel good for trying.

If you really want a law, I would start with the Department of Education.


I would make it mandatory, I would make it a "law" that children are taught specifically, coping mechanisms for stresses, be they emotion-based, political-based, religious-based.

I would teach them problem-solving skills. Non-violent mediation tools.

We have to look at our schools as if ANY one of the millions of students could be the next shooter (for whatever reason) and solve the problem before a problem even arises.


That would be my "law" solution.

a reply to: DAVID64

You sure seem to harbor an awful lot of hate for us.

You're right I don't much care for your ideology.


K~

In a country where there are more guns than people and constitutional rights to own them there are no easy answers.

Best solution to help prevent school shootings would be to secure schools in ways that make them like maxim security prisons. Yep, that could work.

Maybe some kind of new federal agency that is kind of like a precrime agency. One that monitors gun owners, and social media, digital communications, surveillance on all levels with massive data collection, storage and analysis, to predict those most likely to kill people with guns, hunt them down and imprison them for life. Yep that too might work.

/sarcasm

a reply to: Irishhaf

It is real simple, what "common sense" gun control laws are going to actually stop a school shooter?

Think about what you're asking for a second. What law is guaranteed to stop a terrorist from committing an act of terror? What law is guaranteed to stop a man from raping or beating a woman? What law is guaranteed to stop organized crime from trafficking humans or illegal items across borders?

It's almost impossible to stop humans from committing crimes, but it's completely possible to reduce the scope and frequency of many crimes. We don't have dirty bomb attacks in America because the materials are simply too hard for most would-be criminals to obtain. And I've never seen a gang or cartel here do a "drive by" in an attack helicopter or with missile launchers. Once again, that's because it's simply too hard for would-be criminals here to obtain them (though paramilitary gangs/cartels/terrorists in some other countries don't have those same roadblocks).

So while it may be impossible to stop any specific shooting, it's definitely possible to reduce the amount of overall shootings and their number of casualties. Increased prices for firearms, permits, and licenses; decreased supplies & availability; frequent mental health checkups in order to maintain ownership; more thorough background checks; drastically increased penalties for irresponsible gun ownership and criminal activity if owning a gun; mandatory anger management courses to keep ownership rights, etc. I'm not saying I'm necessarily in favor of or opposed to these measures, but they can definitely decrease the amount of shootings.

And to decrease the amount of school shootings, we need to secure our schools the same way we secure factories. This can include all kinds of things like an increased number of armed guards at the entrances; separate lobbying areas that are completely sealed off from the rest of the facilities; metal detectors & security checks to enter the different facilities; having to use ID cards or biometric info in order to enter the areas beyond the lobby, etc.

a reply to: DBCowboy

If you really want a law, I would start with the Department of Education.

Then why side with & vote for those that defunded & gutted public education over the past decades.

K~

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Thank you for actually making a suggestion.

we have almost 10 million sq KM in the US and about a million uniformed police, there is no way to stop unregulated gun sales.

I all for banning lobbies from DC all of them, I am especially in favor of banning politicians from becoming lobbyist.

I am ok with figuring out a middle ground for mental health but it has to be a defined mental health problem, not the vague law that can be interpreted a million different ways. Unfortunately that is the way congress writes a law, as vague and all encompassing as possible.

I agree the current system is sub-optimal but I am not certain a law is going to fix the problem as I see it the majority of the issues runs deeper than the tool that was used.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Pretty simple. Restricts guns entirely in a more severe fashion and it stands to reason gun deaths drop.

so restricting weapons will make those who would kill others no longer want to kill others?

Could you explain how that works?

Sure, though I think you're straw manning my statement above (either out of confusion or deliberate misdirection). Reducing/Removing guns has a direct impact in reducing gun deaths (in the most logical and straightforward sense if there are no guns there can be no gun deaths - and extrapolate to whichever level one wishes). You can make the argument that killers will kill however they can, whether they have guns or not (and lord knows I've heard that argument from just about every 2nd amendment fanatic) but the query above was in reference to shootings. If you would like my opinion on how we reduce total violent crime deaths across the entire spectrum, then the approach of course would be much more holistic (and a discussion for a different thread)

Of course there are many factors which could all contribute to lowering violent crime (better access to mental healthcare, etc) but ultimately if you make it harder(or less efficient) for people to kill other people, it stands to reason less people will be killed when a psychopath finally 'snaps'.

originally posted by: aethertek
a reply to: DBCowboy

If you really want a law, I would start with the Department of Education.

Then why side with & vote for those that defunded & gutted public education over the past decades.

K~

Because it can also be done at the state and local level and the federal level need not to be involved at all.