Another spate of "Get The Guns!" threads...

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Vroomfondel

In my eyes one of the most glaring changes is the idea that every child is a winner just for participating and all the entitlement garbage that goes along with that viewpoint. All that "We don't believe in spanking, he is just expressing himself" crap. You know what? The real world is a tough place. People are mean. Work sucks. Life isn't always fair. You don't get a participation trophy along with a paycheck at the end of the week just for showing up.

This must be a talking point from some right-wing pundit or ten because it's the third time I've read it today, it makes absolutely no sense and it's clearly derived from the existing "participation trophy" meme.

This kid and his brother were adopted. Their adopted father died when they were young. The adoptive mother died a year ago. He apparently had a history of mental illness/behavioral disorders of some sort. He was reportedly expelled following a fight with another boy over a girl. It's probably not a coincidence that he did this on Valentine's Day.

Now it's being reported that he has some involvement with a white nationalist militia group.

But it's participation trophies?

I think what we're seeing is that conservatives are trying way too hard to have some way of blaming school shootings on something they've already been conditioned to blame everything involving children on. Other countries have done away with corporal punishment in schools. Do you think that they're raising kids much differently in Canada then we do here? The UK? Most Western nations?

Why haven't their "coddling" and participation trophy giving led to similar outcomes in those countries?

My personal theory is that there's something at work similar to suicide clusters or copycat murders. Remember when Natural Born Killers came out? I was in high school at the time and a 15 year-old kid from a neighboring town killed his parents. That murder was part of a small rash of copycat murders. In that case, it didn't take long for the hysteria to die down.

"School shooter" entered the American lexicon shortly after Columbine and with it, like a mental contagion, the archetype of the "school shooter." I think that in some ways, it's a phenomenon that feeds on the attention given to the incidents.

My thread is not a direct response as in cause and effect for this particular incident. It is meant to be a reflection of the various elements that contribute to this phenomenon. However, how do you know that it wasn't a coddled childhood full of participation trophies instead of valuable life lessons on how to lose with dignity and the understanding that life isn't always fair or fun that led directly to this incident? Many believe incidents like this are the result of people being incapable of coping with life that is not as rosy and cheerful as they would like it to be.

As I indicated this is a multi-faceted problem. Each incident most likely has some facets that remain constant and some that are transient specific to that individual. We should identify the ones that are more prevalent and focus our efforts on those first. But we can't do that until they have been accurately and honestly identified - the hopeful goal of this thread.

originally posted by: neo96
I say we start treating the first amendment like the second.

Maybe all the bull snip will stop.

Not betting on it though.

Funny you should draw that comparison. It was almost part of this thread.

Second amendment rights shall not be infringed...but we need some kind of regulation, some common sense limitations, and a means of curtailing that right when necessary. Try that with the first amendment and you get a face full of experts in Constitutional law that demand you stop desecrating our founding father's greatest accomplishment.

Too many snowflakes make you snow-blind. The irony is not lost on me.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Vroomfondel

I think that in some ways, it's a phenomenon that feeds on the attention given to the incidents.

That is an excellent observation.

Before Columbine, we had Jeremy

Not quite the same...but still pretty damned close. Suicide pact, and Pearl Jam saved us the added gore. I remember how that video just stood out.

That is what I had eluded to with the comparison to liberalism: Each has to out do the previous. Without knowledge of the previous these incidents might not have escalated to the degree of severity we are currently witnessing. When you apply a methodology of one-upping each other to so many aspects of daily life it is bound to spill over to the less attractive attributes as well.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

We need to tell the village to mind its own business and put the responsibility back in the hands of parents. We need to make it ok for parents to discipline children who misbehave. It is not fair to the child to reward or ignore unacceptable behavior until the day they become an adult then imprison them for it.

This is a problem that will be solved at home. One child at a time.

The "village" used to be the "old lady Crabtree" and " grumpy old man" who would call your parents or the cops, depending on what was going on and hell was to be paid.

Now the "village" is filled with a bunch of "don't get involved, not my kid, they are only kids, didn't see nuttin", progressives. So they get away with it and the parents would be mortified to even think their kid was involved.

Can't even yell at them anymore without fear of a lawsuit or retaliation from the same kids.

Times have changed and not for the better.

As to the guns, the left says it's possible to take 320 million guns from legal gun owners but not deport 11 million illegal people.

Ok.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

You know your country is #ed, when a school shooting leads to people saying kids should be violently disciplined, rather than ban the guns.

a reply to: Vroomfondel


Ho Hum...........The Commies Keep Tryin' to Disarm the Free Man . NEVER Gonna Happen ....

It's just part of American identity, you value your guns more than your kids. I get why you're pissed off, its too late now to stop, its steeped in your cultural identity to own guns, people think you can change it, but you cant.

a reply to: Shamrock6

The moment I cant legally buy a gun is the moment I finally get one. A fully automatic assault rifle off the black market.

If we cant have weapons to protect ourselves because the government suddenly says we cant, then I will expect the government to do what every other iteration of similar interest in history has shown.

Fantastically written and very thoughtful arguments. I would add one more area that needs fixing and that is the media. The countless hours spent on each of these tragedies is outrageous. If the media would spend less time giving the perpetrator so much attention, maybe this wouldn't be so tempting for someone who's unstable.

a reply to: WilsonWilson
a reply to: WilsonWilson

I find remarks like these glib and myopic. If it was such a simple problem don't you think it would be solved by now?

I think the point of the OP is that the problem is complex, and a simplistic solution like banning guns doesn't address the underlying issue. What makes a kid - or anyone for that matter - want to go on a killing spree of any kind? Maybe if we start answering that question, rather than "What method did the perpetrator use?", we might get somewhere.

I think the health - mental, spiritual, and physical - of Americans is worse than we can possibly imagine. Cancer, obesity, diabetes, autism, depression, and suicide. All on increasing trends. New diseases and syndromes being defined. Why? What has changed in 50 years (arbitrary number, don't take it literally)?

Suicide is particularly telling to me, and IMO may be relevant - these people who go shoot up schools often seem to have depression elements to their history. Suicide in America increased 24% across all demographics during the period 1999-2014, after remaining largely static (with some minor fluctuations) since 1950. Why? What's behind it?

I think Vroom's point is spot on - there's a whole iceberg underneath this horrifying tip sticking out of the water, but all that seems to get talked about each time is the guns. Can we look at the problem objectively, without hyperbole for once?

originally posted by: LogicalGraphitti
Fantastically written and very thoughtful arguments. I would add one more area that needs fixing and that is the media. The countless hours spent on each of these tragedies is outrageous. If the media would spend less time giving the perpetrator so much attention, maybe this wouldn't be so tempting for someone who's unstable.

Thank you.

And yes, another facet to be considered. My wife and i discussed this last night. Its hard to watch the news or scan social media some times because it is just one disaster after another. It beats you down and drains your morale. In our conversation we concluded that there was always something bad happening somewhere when we were kids but tv had 4 stations. If you missed the news and didn't read the paper, you were insulated from those bad events. We went days, even weeks, without ever hearing of the uglier side of life. It was a beautiful time to be young. We weren't ignorant, just not bombarded on a daily basis with the evils of man. Less coverage would be a good thing.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
It's just part of American identity, you value your guns more than your kids. I get why you're pissed off, its too late now to stop, its steeped in your cultural identity to own guns, people think you can change it, but you cant.

I have to disagree.

We do not value guns more than our children. We value freedom. It is unfortunate that the battle for our freedom is often fought in the field of firearms.

Your argument would be better suited to automobiles. Car accidents kill tens of thousands of people every year, far more than firearms, but no one says word one about banning cars. Cars are not guaranteed in the Constitution nor is an easy commute yet we gladly sacrifice these lives every year to keep our garages full.

You won't hear, "What about the children?" in this argument either. The children are in their car seats in the back. And if they die tragically in a car accident we will mourn them and move on with our lives because an easy commute and a heated seat in the winter are something we just can't live without. Never mind that in Asia most people ride bikes or take public transportation to and from work. We won't do that. How can we show off the new BMW if we ride a bike to work? The only people who ride bikes to work are the guys who lost their license to a DUI.

GET THE GUNS!! (as in, buy some new ones and support the gun industry/our excellent gun culture)

(I purchased a new Anderson AR-15 yesterday, in honor of the new anti-gun assholes' call to infringe on our God-given right because they're little yellow-bellied cowards that haven't grown up yet)

If you take away guns, only criminals will have them. Including the millions of well trained/well armed American patriots who would outright refuse to surrender any weapon over any excuse.

2A defends all other amendments from the government, who would abuse/exploit/manipulate otherwise. Guns keep them walking a straight line, eyes forward, speak when spoken to. Otherwise, the government gets arrogant and thinking it can do whatever it wants as opposed to be subservient to its masters like a god laptop (aka it is a servant of the sovereign: The People, not the other way around)

BTW, to those who like to argue that "The People" means the state in the Constitution, you're wrong. The founders specifically refer to "The People or the state" in a later amendment. There are no exceptions. It simply says "Shall not be infringed" which means "will not be infringed for any reason"

So why has it already been infringed on, for the first time in 1934 and then in 1986? Why have we permitted these abuses for so long?


Last I heard, the Democrats are OUT OF MONEY. If they want to waste the rest of their funds and blow it on gun control (aka die on that un-electable hill once again) I say we let em.

Keeping Dems out of power (by keeping them focused on distractions like Russia/Guns/etc) will ensure we restore the Constitution by a full repeal of all gun laws, thus restoring the Constitution to its pre 1986/1934 state. AKA a state which was still acceptable.

It doesn't take a special kind of genius to read "Shall not be infringed" and determine we are indeed being infringed upon. Untenable, much like every other mistake that happened over the last century and a half (there are hundreds)

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Another spate of "Get The Guns!" threads...

I know, huh...

As soon as someone uses a gun to kill, the media cries gun man, gun violence, gun deaths.

Guns , Guns, Guns.

But the US military exterminates droves of people by force of arms in the rest of the world and nary a peep comes from the MSM.

a reply to: ClovenSky

well said

I spent more than a decade in the Army in the 82nd Airborne's 1st Brigade Combat Team on top of being ranger qualified. I have handled many weapons over the years and this is the truth of all weapons. They are like remote controls. You can load any gun there is, chamber a round, and sit it on them on the coffee table. Guess what? That gun will never harm anyone. Like a remote, they need to be picked up by an individual, aimed, and used to see any change.

I'm a supporter of the 2nd amendment and a believer in the Constitution but with all that said, we have an issue and while I've always been hesitant to support gun control laws I'm having a change of heart. Kids are screwed up in the head these days. I won't go into blaming video games, internet, hard lives, or medication. These kids committing the shootings are just evil, plain and simple. That's why there are always someone saying they "knew" the kid was a bit off.

My suggestion concerning gun control is a fair compromise that wouldn't be asking too much from anyone and it simply makes sense. Anyone that wishes to purchase a firearm still has the right to do so under the Constitution but it should require a permit earned from an extensive safety course on weapons and a simple mental aptitude test. I wouldn't mind doing this at all if accomplished was saving a single child's life.

Any downsides to an idea like this?

a reply to: Anathros

Licensing is having to ask permission while paying for a privilege.

Thats my issue.

Us out here in the country learn to shoot from our dads, uncles, and grand dads. Having been through the standard Texas Hunters course that is required, i can honestly say that if you grew up around guns, there isn't much else to learn.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Anathros

Licensing is having to ask permission while paying for a privilege.

Thats my issue.

Us out here in the country learn to shoot from our dads, uncles, and grand dads. Having been through the standard Texas Hunters course that is required, i can honestly say that if you grew up around guns, there isn't much else to learn.

Yeah, I grew up on a farm also. I was hunting with my dad and grandpa further back than I can remember. My own daughters including my youngest (9) knows gun safety and is quite the shot with her Ruger 1022. In fact, she got her first buck this year with a 6.5 Creedmoor all by herself whike I slept in the stand.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
It's just part of American identity, you value your guns more than your kids. I get why you're pissed off, its too late now to stop, its steeped in your cultural identity to own guns, people think you can change it, but you cant.

I have to disagree.

We do not value guns more than our children. We value freedom. It is unfortunate that the battle for our freedom is often fought in the field of firearms.

Your argument would be better suited to automobiles. Car accidents kill tens of thousands of people every year, far more than firearms, but no one says word one about banning cars. Cars are not guaranteed in the Constitution nor is an easy commute yet we gladly sacrifice these lives every year to keep our garages full.

You won't hear, "What about the children?" in this argument either. The children are in their car seats in the back. And if they die tragically in a car accident we will mourn them and move on with our lives because an easy commute and a heated seat in the winter are something we just can't live without. Never mind that in Asia most people ride bikes or take public transportation to and from work. We won't do that. How can we show off the new BMW if we ride a bike to work? The only people who ride bikes to work are the guys who lost their license to a DUI.

Please stop the car accident comparison. Everyone who goes out and drives a car should recognize the risk. Going to school should not involve risk, except for the getting there and back part while driving.

The answer of course is gun control and well regulated and funded state militias. The guns in question should be safely kept by the militia until the time that government tyranny rears its head. When that occurs, the guns can be used for their intended purposes. Militia members would be free to go to their militias and have as much practice as they desire.