Florida shooter was white nationalist.

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Teikiatsu

I don't need any "Boogie Man" Neo-Nazo and Neo-fascist groups are just enforcers of their ideology, as long as that ideology remains there will always be people who adhere to it in some compacity

I got bad news for you buddy, there will always be people who think they are better than everyone else and believe they know how everyone else should live their lives. In some cases, they get violent about it.

Like oh, I dunno... Antifa.

originally posted by: elysiumfire
slapjacks:

Guns don't kill people.

Er, yes they do! Guns kill people, they do it without any possibility to an emotional appeal or having any form of mental aberration. They kill without prejudice. The argument that it requires a human finger to pull the trigger is irrelevant, because guns are made specifically for one reason, to ease the act of killing.

So, in reality, the saying that it takes two to tango, is superbly epitomised by a gun rampage. The gun needs the mass shooter, the mass shooter needs the gun. It is easier and more beneficial in the long run to remove the gun, than it is to cure the mental illness.

How do you cure someone of an addiction, you remove the cause of the addiction.

Hypothetical situation. You are about to be locked in one of two rooms for 24 hours, your choice of which one. You will have food, water, shelter, etc. Heck, TV and internet. All the creature comforts.

The difference between these two rooms:

#1 has a loaded gun sitting on the floor.

#2 has a convicted murderer sitting on the floor.

Whichever one you go into, you will be completely unarmed, defenseless.

Which room do you choose?

a reply to: soundguy

HOAX. The AP published a retraction that the White Supremecist Group lied.

Hoax bin?

Why do people think he did it in the first place? The few on the spot interviews that were conducted right after the shooting with eye witnesses kept repeating that A. There were two or three shooters B. They were told to prepare for a school shooter scenario that would take place that exact date with real cops practicing and real lifelike noises and such and it supposedly was never gotten to as the REAL shooting took place instead and C. People are 100% certain they saw and one even walked hand in hand with supposed shooter after the gunshots all stopped and was teasing him at least.

Is it really that hard to see the reluctance that any person with a lick of common sense would be exercising when it comes to condemning this person or having the nerve and reckless behavior as to continue the game of telephone as people pass shot around that immediately makes people hate the suspect and say, "oh he -blanks- and he believes in/supports -blank-/-whom-!?! I mean we are on a conspiracy site people and people jump right on passing around damning conjectures and we have all seen enough movies to know how it works and we have had confirmation for quite some time now that our government really does behave sometimes just like in the movies where you the audience knows the protagonist you are routing for is fighting for his life after being pictured on TV as the wanted suspect of some controversial and emotional scandal which is all it takes to make him completely isolated and unable to expect help or be able to trust anyone stranger or oldest friend. I mean, c'mon ATS, supposedly the only place online where you can immerse yourself in conspiracy theory and expect just as much common sense and critical thinking to accompany claims and discussions as if you were on the website of a network of university scientists for gosh sake! So why lately do you sound just like the average Joe schmoe or plain Jane? Why is it that I am the only person who just won't swallow it anymore as long as there is a continued situation in the aftermath where the suspect is unable to even compose a coherent thought much less speak, has glossed over eyes and seems to be in another world, shows very obvious signs of violence and unrest that all acquaintances suffered but never did much about, perishes before anyone can ask, "why," but fortunely left a full manifesto written up in the house or booby trapped hideout, is reported to be far from the muzzle flashes and noises which come from all directions according to EVERYONE, is a lone crazed gunman when the victims swear to seeing two or three shooters who must have vanished, is always so lucky or just happens to go to the school or work where local law enforcement or military is conducting drills, suffers immediate character assassination within hours with the hilighting of supposed political beliefs that in and of themselves are enough for over half the country to learn of and immediately lose any sympathy that may have remained for the suspect causing the public to immediately see an enemy who deserves what he gets, goes to trial after the media has made sure anyone but the most scrutinizing few citizens in a jury will find him guilty no matter what is presented at trial, is chased as police are trying to minimize contact with other people before locating him and killing him when he is said to have attacked those attempting to take him into ccustody so we only have a handful of incidents in which the suspect survived to even answer for himself that always accompanies these things. Really, we hear all the damn time about crimes day in day out so why is it that at least one if not several of these aforementioned issues that leave holes in the story and unanswerable confusing conundrums aren't always happening with bank robbers, car jackers, home invasion murderers?? Why is it that only when there has been a mad casualty shooting that things such as attempts to get a feel for who the killer was is made impossible cuz...I dunno, say...cuz there only exists a single picture of the person and the picture was taken with an old 35mm instomatic from the 80s and money can be offered (which usually has the dogs come running) if anyone can produce evidence that they truly know or ever did know the victim and nobody can be found (as was the case with Adam Lanza whose ties to the Twilight author, Obama, and Batman Dark Knight were enough to know that the only possible way for such ties to exist is if some facet of government has hands in the event. Of course then just as I thought those in the know put out a statement identifying it as a SIMULATED EXEXCISE (like anyone with a brain needed that, simply knowing what 80s photography was like or that parents don't laugh at their kid dying two hours afterwards is all that was required. Following another trail is just in your face red herring and those on that path gullible to a pitiable point. There is no explanation for the first things we saw the pics and laughter, simplest explanation is always the right one. CNN makes you think you need to consider more but you don't. Learn that and cut it out!) I ain't saying they are all fake, not saying this one is fake but what I am saying is what in the bloody hell WILL it take to see you with your foot in your mouth?! I know there are plenty of self righteous morons who made complete fools of themselves and should be ashamed after they did just what the major brotherhood owned networks prompted them to. It has gotten innocent kids killed in the past and running your mouths when u know NOTHING ABOUT IT is bound to get this one killed too guilty or innocent it won't matter. Killer or patsy this participation amongst you all means he is a dead man walking. I thought we got a chance to be tried in the US. Trial after saturation of character assassinating propaganda ain't a trial, its the modern humiliating someone in the stocks.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu


Hypothetical situation. You are about to be locked in one of two rooms for 24 hours, your choice of which one. You will have food, water, shelter, etc. Heck, TV and internet. All the creature comforts.

The difference between these two rooms:

#1 has a loaded gun sitting on the floor.

#2 has a convicted murderer sitting on the floor.

Whichever one you go into, you will be completely unarmed, defenseless.

Which room do you choose?

LOLWUT?

a reply to: Teikiatsu

No one ever said there wouldn't be, as I stated, as long as the Ideology exist, there will be people who enforce it

and as to your failed attempt at equating Antifa and Nazi's

"Antifa" is not attempting to install an 'ethnostate' or dominate based on Racial or Religious "supremacy", "Antifa" is not a political movement or party, there is no Racial or "supremacists" ideology behind it, Antifascist Aktion was created as a way for people to "unite" to fight and defend against fascism,

talk about needing a boogieman, you all seem obsessed with Antifa

a reply to: soundguy


This is just hilarity at its finest. LOL Hitler youth oh yes. LOL

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Teikiatsu

No one ever said there wouldn't be, as I stated, as long as the Ideology exist, there will be people who enforce it

and as to your failed attempt at equating Antifa and Nazi's

"Antifa" is not attempting to install an 'ethnostate' or dominate based on Racial or Religious "supremacy", "Antifa" is not a political movement or party, there is no Racial or "supremacists" ideology behind it, Antifascist Aktion was created as a way for people to "unite" to fight and defend against fascism,

talk about needing a boogieman, you all seem obsessed with Antifa

Dude this sort of diatribe is not real world. You got to be living in a cave. Only fascism running around these days is the MYTH of fascism. I see all races and people every day living well together were I am.

a reply to: soundguy

Not only was your white nationalist angle proved incorrect, but your anti-white fear mongering is false also.

Illegal immigrants have killed over 25,000 americans (according to GAO data), all of the mass murders since columbine add up to about 900 deaths (according to mother jone's data).

NOTE: some of those mass shootings were committed by minorities.

a reply to: Logarock

"Fascism" is not just Racial supremacy, although that is the only thing people bring up, "fascism" is also anti-anarchy, so as an anarchist I could argue that all forms of State and government are in fact "fascist"

also, neo-fascism and post-fascism

"Neo-fascism is a post–World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, anti-immigration policies or, where relevant, nativism, anti-communism, anti-socialism, anti-Marxism, anti-anarchism and opposition to the parliamentary system and liberal democracy. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a political epithet. Some post–World War II regimes have been described as neo-fascist due to their authoritarian nature, and sometimes due to their fascination with and sympathy towards fascist ideology and rituals.

Post-fascism is a label that has been applied to several European political parties that espouse a modified form of fascism and which partake in constitutional politics"


but, individual "fascists" or people who enforce or believe in "fascist" ideology, do exist, just because they are not the controlling political power, or a majority of numbers, and just because where you live you don't view it, doesn't mean they don't exist

originally posted by: slapjacks
Guns don't kill people.

So you won't mind if I hold a loaded gun to your head, and pull the trigger?

originally posted by: Porquenolosdos

originally posted by: slapjacks
Guns don't kill people.

So you won't mind if I hold a loaded gun to your head, and pull the trigger?

What would that loaded gun do if you didn't pull the trigger? Take you and any other person or external force out of the equation and what would that loaded gun do??

a reply to: Porquenolosdos

What's the operating system? The gun, or the hypothetical you?? I do believe it's the latter. As the gun is an inanimate object incapable of independent actions.

a reply to: Porquenolosdos


If you did it? Yes, I'd mind.

If the gun were just sitting there, without a human operator? I wouldn't mind one bit.

It goes against every last bit of gun safety, but a gun without a human is a safe gun. There is absolutely zero chance of death without the human component in modern firearms.

One of the 911 calls said he was into Isis, and Iraqi and Syrian resistance. Them he was wearing a MAgA hat. He was a mentally ill, confused, mourning and lost kid. The authorities could have saved 17 lives after the citizens did their duty and warned them.

a reply to: Porquenolosdos

I'll lay my head on the table next to the loaded gun and wait. Afterall, if the gun is the killer, it shouldn't need you or anyone else to do anything.

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Logarock

"Fascism" is not just Racial supremacy, although that is the only thing people bring up, "fascism" is also anti-anarchy, so as an anarchist I could argue that all forms of State and government are in fact "fascist"

also, neo-fascism and post-fascism

"Neo-fascism is a post–World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, anti-immigration policies or, where relevant, nativism, anti-communism, anti-socialism, anti-Marxism, anti-anarchism and opposition to the parliamentary system and liberal democracy. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a political epithet. Some post–World War II regimes have been described as neo-fascist due to their authoritarian nature, and sometimes due to their fascination with and sympathy towards fascist ideology and rituals.

Post-fascism is a label that has been applied to several European political parties that espouse a modified form of fascism and which partake in constitutional politics"


but, individual "fascists" or people who enforce or believe in "fascist" ideology, do exist, just because they are not the controlling political power, or a majority of numbers, and just because where you live you don't view it, doesn't mean they don't exist

How should it should be?
You are a anarchist.
What would your ideal world comprise of ?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: elysiumfire
slapjacks:

Guns don't kill people.

Er, yes they do! Guns kill people, they do it without any possibility to an emotional appeal or having any form of mental aberration. They kill without prejudice. The argument that it requires a human finger to pull the trigger is irrelevant, because guns are made specifically for one reason, to ease the act of killing.

So, in reality, the saying that it takes two to tango, is superbly epitomised by a gun rampage. The gun needs the mass shooter, the mass shooter needs the gun. It is easier and more beneficial in the long run to remove the gun, than it is to cure the mental illness.

How do you cure someone of an addiction, you remove the cause of the addiction.

Hypothetical situation. You are about to be locked in one of two rooms for 24 hours, your choice of which one. You will have food, water, shelter, etc. Heck, TV and internet. All the creature comforts.

The difference between these two rooms:

#1 has a loaded gun sitting on the floor.

#2 has a convicted murderer sitting on the floor.

Whichever one you go into, you will be completely unarmed, defenseless.

Which room do you choose?

Why in this bizarre hypothetical is the convicted murderer not in jail ? Or is this just a trick question....

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: soundguy

Not only was your white nationalist angle proved incorrect, but your anti-white fear mongering is false also.

Illegal immigrants have killed over 25,000 americans (according to GAO data), all of the mass murders since columbine add up to about 900 deaths (according to mother jone's data).

NOTE: some of those mass shootings were committed by minorities.

Possibly, but the GAO data is this (PDF), which says there were an estimated 25,064 arrests of illegal immigrants with the charge of homicide during the years 2003 through 2010 in total. This is a bit different from saying there were 25000 killings, as there are regularly more than 1 individual arrested for the crime of murder. A side note - murder has the highest clearance (aka 'solved') rate... of about 66%, so a third or more of murders go unsolved... we don't know who the murderer is.

Speaking of, here's FBI statistics
year victims offenders
2010 12,996 15,094
2009 13,636 15,760
2008 14,180 16,277
2007 14,831 17,040
2006 14,990 17,399
2005 14,860 17,029
2004 14,121 15,935
2003 14,408 16,043
-----------------------
Total 114022 130579

Again, recall that 1/3rd of murders go unsolved, so you get about a person and a half as offenders to each murder. Now remember that the statistic of 25k is for arrests. I'll assume all arrested were actually charged, as that may be the case here. Many people get arrested, then released without charges. About 70% of people charged with murder are convicted of murder.

Let's assume that holds, and 17,500 illegal immigrants are convicted of murder. Recall the 1.5 murders per murder. This suggests about 11,667 murders by illegal immigrants, with a 2,891,668 illegal immigrants arrested (plus many more that were not) for a rate of 403.5 per 100k. Given that there were 114,022 murders over the same time period, that's a little over 10% of murders.

Speaking of estimates, we also think there are about 12.5 million illegal immigrants in the U.S., which puts the number lower - about 93 per 100k. That still seems rather high... the highest murder rates in the world are U.S. Virgin Islands (52.64), Venezuela (57.15), Honduras (63.75), and El Salvador (108.64) is the only one that exceeds that rate. Nothing else is above 50/100k, only Jamaica is in the 40s, and there are only a handful in the 30s and 20s.

I suspect their estimates are a bit off.

a reply to: Greven

They may be. There are a lot of variables that go into it though, while some were likely released without charge and others went unsolved, they also don't count bodies. So where two or three people may have been killed it only counts as one arrest. Further, there were estimates in the 90's (by the DOJ) that of the 20k people in the 18th street gang, 60% were illegal immigrants. That's 12,000 people in one gang. IF that number translates to other gangs it's easy to see how they could make up such a disproportionate number of murders.