Pro_Life Violence

LMMFAO!!

Thank you, Jestaman, for showing me how dumb Christians can be!!!

Atheists don't kill their kids because they AND their kids are Satan?? Damn, didn't know Satan had so many bodies...

I notice you didn't explain why Christians kill their "Satan" spawn. Oh, right, it's because the kid could have been Satan. I suggest that you Christians have a talk with Jestaman cuz he's really making yall look bad.

Question, Jestaman: How is is that Satan can be born in human form numerous times, yet Christ can be born in human form only once?!?! Is Satan more powerful than Christ? Or, is Christ too lazy to have himself born over and over again in human form?

I will assume that you will miss my sarcasm here. But, supergenius, how can an atheist, who DOESN'T BELIEVE IN GOD, believe in Satan? How can an ATHEIST believe in Satan and not God? My bad, but you ain't playin with a full deck as if I jacked out your jacks and left 50 cards! (paraphrase from Ludacris)

And please don't talk smack about the 50 cards thing. I play a lot of poker, I know that if you took out all the jacks you would have 48 cards...

How else do you explain people not following the Lord? He has given them life, love, and the planet they live on and yet they turn away. It must be satan. How do you explain all those dinosaur fossils? Suppose to be millions of years old but we know that is wrong, it is only around 6,000 years old. The bible is right for god inspired it, and god is not wrong.

Fossils are only 6000 years old??

Where do you get that from? How come they weren't mentioned in Genesis?? How could God give us dominion over giant lizards that made the ground shake when they walked??

If I get warned, oh well, but Jestaman, you are an idiot! My geology professor, who is a CHRISTIAN, acknowledges that the earth is WAY older than 6000 years! Man, who taught you about the world? Ever hear of the Ice Age? Ever hear of the Sumerians? Ever hear of Native Americans and Eskimos? Please explain to me how all the diverse creatures that have ever existed did so within 6000 years?

Man, you are a FOOL.

Must have gone to a private school, or home schooled, that would explain why he believes the bible.

Anyways, here is the woman killing her kid for being the devil....
enterprise.southofboston.com

I went to public schools, even though they are hellish. Trying to ban prayer before a game, Bible Group after school, the same people who control the government trying to force satan on children.

It says in the bible the Earth is 6,000 years old, so it is.

Aight, homey, whatever you say. If your precious Bible tells you so, so be it.

If there's one thing I've learned here, it's to never argue with a person who hold the Bible as the absolute truth. No matter how much proof you show them that refutes them, they won't listen. Oh well, to each his own...

Originally posted by saint4God
We're agreed then. Neither one of us are three billion females. With that said, I'd still like to explore the morality of the issue to help council someone in this situation.

I'm one of three billion females.
Is this a hypathetic someone you wish to councel? A rape victim?

What again is the reason these mothers-to-be are making the decision? If it's so they don't have to remember the rape then yes, it is selfish to not consider the baby's right to life.

I think you need to educate yourself a little first in regard to women who survive rape before assuming it is to 'remove the memory'. Of course they'd remember it- irreospective of abortion.
Abortion is removing the result of rape.. carrying it is continuing the physical violation.. of course the psycholgical violation can never completely heal.

I'm glad we agree on that. Can we convince the 18 - 25% who do it for this reason to not do it because a family member is coercing? That in itself would be an excellent victory in human rights I think.

Ironically encouraging them to make their own choices about their bodies, be assertive and stand up for themselves would mean they wouldn't let anyone tell them what to do.. especially when it comes to pregnancy.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Must have gone to a private school, or home schooled, that would explain why he believes the bible.

Anyways, here is the woman killing her kid for being the devil....
enterprise.southofboston.com

Let's be fair and look at a good article (what? A positive article on CNN?) about a Christian who caught a criminal's ear for just a moment with her faith:

www.cnn.com...

She managed to help a violent criminal with words! Imagine that....


[edit on 14-3-2005 by saint4God]

Good morning brothers and sisters! I hope you all had an excellent weekend.

Originally posted by riley
Is this a hypathetic someone you wish to councel? A rape victim?

I have for three in the past and would not be surprised if I meet more, but I'm no different than anyone else. No special training or job classification. Just somebody some people have come to talk to. I think everyone should be prepared to help others. I never expected to meet a single rape victim in my lifetime.

Originally posted by riley
I think you need to educate yourself a little first in regard to women who survive rape before assuming it is to 'remove the memory'. Of course they'd remember it- irreospective of abortion.

I think you're absolutely right. Whether they have an abortion or not, it's remembered so to have an abotion to dodge bad memories is invalid, per your statement here. I could always use more education.

Originally posted by riley
Abortion is removing the result of rape.. carrying it is continuing the physical violation.. of course the psycholgical violation can never completely heal.

I see what you're saying about continuing the physical violation and it does take a fortitude to look at the situation with different eyes. One cannot live life in a bubble sheltered from all harm the world could possibly inflict. This child did not ask for this life either, yet it exists. I did not ask for my life, yet it exists. I did not ask for the pain in my life, yet it exists. These things must exist to achieve growth. Pain hurts, but is not pointless. From overcoming adversity comes growth and maturity. We must overcome these trials through perseverence to be complete.

Yes, I have proofs to validate psychological violations never completely heal.

Originally posted by riley

I'm glad we agree on that. Can we convince the 18 - 25% who do it for this reason to not do it because a family member is coercing? That in itself would be an excellent victory in human rights I think.

Ironically encouraging them to make their own choices about their bodies, be assertive and stand up for themselves would mean they wouldn't let anyone tell them what to do.. especially when it comes to pregnancy.

This would be excellent for this population! As for the other 75% - 82%, the debate continues it seems because the situations/reasons are different.

I really liked this exchange riley, it helped me reflect on a few things going on in my life right now...

Originally posted by saint4God
Good morning brothers and sisters! I hope you all had an excellent weekend.

Good evening & likewise.

I have for three in the past and would not be surprised if I meet more, but I'm no different than anyone else. No special training or job classification. Just somebody some people have come to talk to. I think everyone should be prepared to help others. I never expected to meet a single rape victim in my lifetime.

Glad you were able to offer them some support.. they're around but usually don't come forward. I'm shocked at the amount of my friends that have gone through this.

I see what you're saying about continuing the physical violation and it does take a fortitude to look at the situation with different eyes. One cannot live life in a bubble sheltered from all harm the world could possibly inflict. This child did not ask for this life either, yet it exists. I did not ask for my life, yet it exists. I did not ask for the pain in my life, yet it exists. These things must exist to achieve growth. Pain hurts, but is not pointless. From overcoming adversity comes growth and maturity. We must overcome these trials through perseverence to be complete.

Sometimes 'overcoming' adversity requires making tough choices. Depends on the person and what they are able to endure.

This would be excellent for this population! As for the other 75% - 82%, the debate continues it seems because the situations/reasons are different.

Problem is people are more willing to shout 'murderer' and 'slut' rather than bother adressing the real cultural reasons for unwanted pregnancy and abortions. The reasons are so diverse and they take the lazy way out because they don't want to concede that society's problems aren't black and white and can't be solved with 'eve was evil' etc.

I really liked this exchange riley, it helped me reflect on a few things going on in my life right now...

I hope you are able to work through them and find some sort resolution.

Originally posted by riley
Problem is people are more willing to shout 'murderer' and 'slut' rather than bother adressing the real cultural reasons for unwanted pregnancy and abortions.

I'm with ya. It's a shame, especially when they wave a flag (of Christianity) that's supposed to represent God, love, and peace. What kind of love is there in calling God's creations these things? They are the precursors of this kind of violence .

Originally posted by riley
The reasons are so diverse and they take the lazy way out because they don't want to concede that society's problems aren't black and white and can't be solved with 'eve was evil' etc.

Remember also that Adam blamed God for Eve influencing him:

"The man said, 'The woman YOU put here with me - she gave me some fruit, and I ate it." (Genesis 3:12)

Looks like 'man' has been dodging responsibility since the beginning. Cases of abortion doubly so.

Originally posted by riley
I hope you are able to work through them and find some sort resolution.

Thanks . I have resolution, just need reminders as often as I can get them.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Painful death? It doesn't have nerves.... how can it feel pain?

Of course unborn children have nerves. They open their eyes, hiccup,
suck their thumbs, move. They need nerves to do all this AND doctors
give unborn children painkillers when the operate in the womb.

So FF, start adopting, have about several million unwanted kids to go.....

Gosh, I'd LOVE to. We wanted to adopt more but each time we went
to do so, something would happen. My husband got a new job and we
moved, etc. etc. If adoption wasn't so darn expensive, many more
people would be adopting. The waiting lists attest to that.

You raise a good point Flyersfan. I don't get why adoptions are so expensive. Can someone please explain? Is it because being raised by the state is better than being raised at a caring home? Do you have to have money to be considered caring parents? Why is there such a long waiting list? Okay, okay...I'll calm down now...

One more question. Do you think abortion rates would decrease if a mother was assured her child would surely live in a good home?

[edit on 14-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
www.cnn.com...
She managed to help a violent criminal with words! Imagine that....

I saw her on TV this morning. What an amazing story!
She was so calm through this and even hesitated to call
911 at first because she wanted to make sure that the
killer was away from everyone else so others wouldn't
get hurt. She was calm and she thought everything
through selflessly. An amazing person.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm with ya. It's a shame, especially when they wave a flag (of Christianity) that's supposed to represent God, love, and peace. What kind of love is there in calling God's creations these things? They are the precursors of this kind of violence

.

Yeah- they aren't doing christainiy any favours- they're probably the reason why it's losing followers.

Remember also that Adam blamed God for Eve influencing him:

"The man said, 'The woman YOU put here with me - she gave me some fruit, and I ate it." (Genesis 3:12)

Looks like 'man' has been dodging responsibility since the beginning. Cases of abortion doubly so.

And he couldn't even pick his own fruit.. typical..

[edit on 14-3-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
And he couldn't even pick his own fruit.. typical..

I don't care who you are, that there is funny.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by saint4God]

Expensive adoptions ---

Well, we finally had to go overseas to adopt... for a number of reasons.
My adoption info is 10 years old, but I'll give it to you as we learned it ...

Most states have a 35 year old cut off. Most people don't even start
to consider adoption until this age. Also, Alabama had a waiting list
up to 9 years. We met people who were on the list for 6 years and
hadn't moved up even one spot. They gave up and decided to go
overseas. We were open to interracial adoption (we are white).
We were STRONGLY discouraged from doing so. We were told that
first we'd have to foster care, then we couldn't adopt that child and
we'd have to foster some more, then we could be considered, then
we'd have to get on a list ... blah blah blah.

Private adoptions - the adoptive parents meet with the birth mother
and pay for all expenses. The birth mother has a certain amount of
time after the birth to change her mind (usually a few months). ALL
the people we met who had tried private adoption had the birth
mother change her mind. This .. after they had paid for all her medical
care and had already bonded with the baby. One family we met had
private adoptions fail 3 times due to 'changed minds'.

Overseas adoptions - our adoption agency was a non-profit agency.
Our daughter cost around $19,000 to adopt. This includes travel
expenses to Bolivia, shots, etc. $5,000 off the top went to the gov't
of Bolivia. 2,500 for a home study (social workers check you out, etc.).
Translations of the home study and other paperwork drives up the
cost of international adoption.

The waiting list in America is such a long wait that by the time you get
moved up the list to get a baby, you are too old and past the cut off.

Also, YES I do think that adoption would be less costly here in America
if more children were given up for adoption instead of being aborted.
I hate to put something so emotional into economic terms but ...
suppy and demand. Right now there are few babies available for
adoption and the cost goes up (and the demands of private adoption
birth mothers goes through the roof - pay for this, pay for that, buy
me this, buy me that). If more children were available, the cost would
go down and so would the DIVA demands of some birth mothers.

I cannot think of a more honourable or noble cause than taking care of another human life. In this case, a win-win situation.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Also, YES I do think that adoption would be less costly here in America
if more children were given up for adoption instead of being aborted.
I hate to put something so emotional into economic terms but ...
suppy and demand. Right now there are few babies available for
adoption and the cost goes up (and the demands of private adoption
birth mothers goes through the roof - pay for this, pay for that, buy
me this, buy me that). If more children were available, the cost would
go down and so would the DIVA demands of some birth mothers.

Hm...interesting. Well put, thanks for the insight.

I'm surprised a company...er... I mean agency hasn't thought of meeting this demand by included international children on their adoption list. I'd also be interested in what figures would result if all the aborted childred were given to adoption instead. Lots to chew on. Thanks again.

Originally posted by Jestaman
So SWIB, only women have the right to defend babies? The men of this worlkd made them, we should have more right then the woman, after all, it was them being weak that got mankind kicked out of Eden.

I will rephrase your question for you so as to ask it properly rather than suggest you are asking me to defend something I did not state: SWIB, do you think that only women have the right to defend babies?

The answer is no, compound and more complicated than any pro-lifer would wish to reason for themselves, because it is not as clear-cut as you would rather believe. Am I convinced that a foetus within the first two months is a baby? No. Women should not be even asked to carry and birth a child resulting from a violent intrusive act inflicted on her person if she does not want to do so. The emotional ramifactions inflicted on a woman cannot be imagined by men. They will never have to feel filthy, dirty, violated and made to carry and feed from their bodies an organism from an act they did not consent to.

The issue cannot be seperated either between abortion and the danger to a mother's health either, because there can be no difference in what pro-lifers call killing, that foetus where the child was planned and killing a foetus resulting from rape.

Unwanted pregnancies outside of rape, are another matter as well, as they have been precipitated by two consenting individuals. This is the only recourse I see men having at all, which requires the laws of support to be changed, and which will never happen because men still control governments. If a woman wished to terminate an unwanted pregnancy where the father wants her to have the child, a legal avenue should be created whereby he can encourage her to carry to term by signing a binding contract requiring him to be responsibe for all medical costs and for the raising of and sole support of that child. The mother would have to sign all of her rights away. I am certain many women would be amenable to such an agreement thereby reducing some of abortions granting the rare man who wants the child his wish.

The fact is that statistics do not support the story large numbers of men wanting these children. This is clearly seen in the number who abandon their children after a relationship ends, spend little or no time with them after same, walk away from the obligation to support, or fight tooth and nail to make sure the woman gets as little as possible of property and support. The number of of children living in foster homes is sad testament to that as well as to the growth which can be expected should women be forced to carry to term.

I am absolutely in disagreement with partial birth abortion, I find it cruel and inhumane. I am pro-abortion for the victims of violence (include incest) who want to rid their bodies of the criminal spawn, and lenient to those who through their own ignorance find themselves with child and unable to support same because until I walk in their shoes I cannot know their circumstances.

Should our children male or female, ever come home and tell us that they are pregnant and will be looking to abort, We would do everything in our power to convince our daughter or our son's lover, to carry that child to term where it will be adopted by us and raised in our household. Our children were told of this when they became teenagers, along with the need to be smart and responsible when experimenting with sex. They have also been told to expect to be a part of that child's life. If the female is not my daughter it would grieve me terribly if we fail to convince her to do this, but the say in either scenario is ultimately not mine, nor do I have a right to force them to do as I bid.

Now if only you pro-lifers can stop and think this way as well rather than try and ram your ill-thought out, one-sided, selfish and controlling beliefs down people's throats, you just might come up with the first small step to mending the divide.