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The conversation that needs to happen.

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posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's exactly the point an orphan whose adoption parents died relatively recently and who can't make social contacts because of it is not depressed or mentally ill in any way those drugs are designed to help.

It's not mental health it's a social problem.
edit on 15-2-2018 by Peeple because: Auto




posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

I will respectfully disagree that forced incarceration in a mental hospital is the appropriate avenue to take because some would argue that doing the necessary research on what could be the root cause will take too much time.

Here's the problem--these drugs should have had such tests started long ago, for sure, but they weren't, at least not to the level and focus that I think that they should have been. But because that failure has occurred does not mean that it's okay for a government to take away a person's freedom just because doing due diligence on researching commonly prescribed drugs might take a while.

There's an acceptable middle ground, but forced mental-hospital incarceration used to be a normal occurrence in America, and that didn't work out well for many/most patients.


edit on 15-2-2018 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 12:21 PM
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AnteD, mentioned up above about the age range and gender having pent up anger and frustration and it made me question. Why do they have pent up anger?

I know others mention coddling and immediately eyes roll. Young boys were definitely raised differently in the past. Society definitely had an expectation for both genders. It was learned and understood. Boys= learned reason through logic rationalizing and Girls=learned reason through emotional empathy and application. Boys did learn to "suck it up and be a man".

That phrase sounds atrocious in today's society that says men need to connect with their feminine side. This did not drain emotion or empathy, but gave them a focus on releasing frustration through logical rationalizing. Even adults male and females are becoming quite frustrated and depressed. Why? Is it possible, that there really is a different balance between the genders and we are creating a disharmony in attempting to create an equal unisex society? Is it possible to create equality by celebrating the actual differences that Natural evolution seemed to have created as a perfect balance?

Truly I am just spitballing here a thought. I have just been forcing myself to attempt at considering that those that decry the coddling and trophies aspect may actually have a valid point in some way. Yet, it is more than just school's, it is our current America society expectations across the spectrum.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's exactly the point an orphan whose adoption parents died relatively recently and who can't make social contacts because of it is not depressed or mentally ill in any way those drugs are designed to help.

Is that your professional opinion as an internet Psychologist?



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Right sure carry on try to ban guns instead of fixing the issue.


Meanwhile he was an orphan. Why is there nobody having an eye in him from the adoption services after his parents died? He was screaming before he did it on all social media for help, he wanted to be stopped. Nobody cared.
He told his classmates what he was about to do. I Imagine as he was expelled he felt now finally they have to recognise him, instead they expelled him.
Am I the only one who sees how broken society is that not one single person took the time to give him some attention?



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: network dude

S+F



But there is something in our society that seems to not only enable this, it emboldens it.





I sure as hell don't have the answers to this, but I do know that if we don't all have RATIONAL discussions about this, and talk about the uncomfortable things, this won't change. We all need to be willing to look into the dark closet that frightens us.

the killing just needs to stop.


As of yesterday, based on what I have heard, this mass shooting was the 18th mass shooting at a school in the US. We are only 45 days into the year....



Mass shootings. None of us can deny that the US has an unfair advantage on this topic


Very true.

ETA: Jim Carrey just tweeted this photo with the caption, "Pro-life?!"




edit on 15-2-2018 by Involutionist because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 02:34 PM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

I grew up two doors down from a kid my age who I hung out with most of the time. His dad was a cop, and a Viet Nam vet. He had an AR-15, or perhaps an M-16, I don't know, before they were in style. My friend wasn't an angel, and was exceptionally good at gaining entry to places he should not. His dad's gun closet being one of them. So there I was, a 10 year old kid, peering into the abyss of firearms. My parents were totally against guns, so of course I have an unhealthy obsession with them. But knowing all that, I never touched one of his dads guns. I knew better. I was taught better. I feel certain that if I ever thought I needed to, I could get access to one of them, but again, I knew better.

Now, fighting. I found out that I possess a cool skill. Once I get hit, I go into a rage and stop feeling anything else. Which in a fight is handy. Until you realize you just hurt another person over something likely stupid. I felt way worse than the other guy, whom I just beat the crap out of, in every instance. I don't fight anymore. I would rather, and have just taken a punch, and stand my ground. I really don't want to hurt anyone. I own weapons. I carry daily. While I have the ability to take a life at any given moment, it's the very last thing I would ever want to do. I don't think I'm an enigma here. I think a lot of people have the same mentality. Sadly, I also know that some do not.

I sure don't have the answers here, but I think very strongly that my upbringing had everything to do with my feelings on this. Being taught the value of life, and understanding how beautiful each one can be, is what makes me believe that this current situation can be repaired, at least partially. But we all need to let go of our preconceived notions, and listen to each other to find the right balance. (IMHO)



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 02:43 PM
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originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Right sure carry on try to ban guns instead of fixing the issue.


Meanwhile he was an orphan. Why is there nobody having an eye in him from the adoption services after his parents died? He was screaming before he did it on all social media for help, he wanted to be stopped. Nobody cared.
He told his classmates what he was about to do. I Imagine as he was expelled he felt now finally they have to recognise him, instead they expelled him.
Am I the only one who sees how broken society is that not one single person took the time to give him some attention?


that is a great point. He was screaming for help. Nobody posts about the bank they are going to rob next Tuesday, but this kid was posting about things he was going to do, and apparently, nobody gave a #. And he did get quite a few raw deals in his life it seems. None of that excuses what he did, but I think it's a real wake up call to all of us in not being afraid to try to talk to someone who seems to really need the dialog.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 02:49 PM
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If we all think back to our younger years and try to remember some of the "catastrophes" that we faced. Failing a class, getting dumped by a girl, dealing with a bully. They all seemed insurmountable at the time, but looking back, they were nothing compared to the challenges we faced as adults. If we can get kids to grasp this without them feeling we are being condescending, it might go a long way. But that in itself is a large challenge, as I also recall, I knew everything back then.

I am tired of empty thoughts and prayers, I want the killing to end.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 02:52 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
If we all think back to our younger years and try to remember some of the "catastrophes" that we faced. Failing a class, getting dumped by a girl, dealing with a bully. They all seemed insurmountable at the time, but looking back, they were nothing compared to the challenges we faced as adults. If we can get kids to grasp this without them feeling we are being condescending, it might go a long way. But that in itself is a large challenge, as I also recall, I knew everything back then.

I am tired of empty thoughts and prayers, I want the killing to end.


People all over the globe face these same issues but don't resort to killing innocent kids on high school as alleviation.

I am tired of the scapegoating, the solution is really rather simple.

But in some people's eyes, the right for mentally ill people to access firearms and kill innocents is more important than the right for sixteen year olds to go to high school without the threat of being murdered.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: network dude
If we all think back to our younger years and try to remember some of the "catastrophes" that we faced. Failing a class, getting dumped by a girl, dealing with a bully. They all seemed insurmountable at the time, but looking back, they were nothing compared to the challenges we faced as adults. If we can get kids to grasp this without them feeling we are being condescending, it might go a long way. But that in itself is a large challenge, as I also recall, I knew everything back then.

I am tired of empty thoughts and prayers, I want the killing to end.


People all over the globe face these same issues but don't resort to killing innocent kids on high school as alleviation.

I am tired of the scapegoating, the solution is really rather simple.

But in some people's eyes, the right for mentally ill people to access firearms and kill innocents is more important than the right for sixteen year olds to go to high school without the threat of being murdered.


the solution seems anything but simple. We have an entire culture that has become numb to this kind of news. Yep, another one happened yesterday, what's for dinner?

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I'm trying to help myself understand where we went wrong. I can think of things I specifically did wrong as a parent, and I'm lucky none of my kids turned out to be violent.

I really wish you were right, and we could just do "X" to fix this, but if we could, it would have already been done.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: network dude

So long as the defacto "answer" is "we need to outlaw guns" then we miss the greater point of "what has changed"?

When I went to school we all had rifles in our guns racks in our pickups. No one was ever shot. We also all carried pocket knives. No one was stabbed.

So what changed? If we aren't investigating where that question leads, then we are simply discussing the narrative that the power structure is foisting off on us.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

exactly. when I see the MSM tackle this, it's right to "guns", then to thoughts and prayers. As can be seen with the responses in JUST THIS THREAD, the issue has quite a few more facets to it than just guns.

I hope somebody with some smarts, finds their way to some public forum on this topic.



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 03:59 PM
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a reply to: TrueBrit


There is not TIME for intensive studies into these drugs, because the problems being caused by the access insane people have to firearms, are existent NOW, and those experiments, trials and so on take an inordinate amount of time.

Why is there never enough time to fix a problem, but always time to try something else?

Up above I posted a direct correlation between gun control law impact and the mass school shootings that clearly indicate the shootings intensify as gun control is tightened. I also showed where there is a direct correlation between video violence and mass school shootings, and between psychoactive drugs in children and mass school shootings.

Changing the battery on your car will not fix a flat tire. I don't care how expensive the new battery is. I don't care how many times you change the battery. I don't care how badly you want the battery to fix the tire. It simply will not work, because the battery is not correlated with the tire. People need to figure that out. You need to figure that out.

This thread is a much-needed start to a conversation we have been needing to have since 1999. 19 years and countless deaths later we're having it... better late than never, I suppose. The reason we haven't had it before is not because no one tried. It's because people kept ignoring reality to push an agenda... like you are trying to do. If you have any data that contradicts my post, please post it... but don't just say "guns bad"! No reason, no references to what has changed, no acknowledgement of other's information... just BAD GUNS! BAD! BAD!

Please stop. Children are dying while you push an agenda.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: network dude


It's so much bigger than guns, or ADHD drugs, or video games, but it's all those things, and more. Empathy. The ability to care about the life of other people, or animals.

Of course all these things together contribute a bit to the problem, and honestly I don't think we'll ever truly figure out how to rid the Earth of insane people, they are just a fact of life, a person who is sane today could go insane tomorrow. It's like this dumb advert I recently saw about lowering road related deaths to zero... it just aint going to happen regardless of how hard we try, the probabilistic nature of reality dictates some people are going to crash regardless of how many precautions they take, at least until all our cars are completely self-driving.

Having said that, there is one thing in your list which stands out among the others, some others here have already mentioned it, and that is pharmaceutical drugs, specifically antidepressants. You state that empathy is very important, but many antidepressants damage our ability to feel empathy and other emotions which would typically prevent a person from committing mass murder. Here's an interesting thread on the topic from a few years back: Nearly Every Mass Shooting In The Last 20 Years Shares One Thing In Common, And It Isn’t Weapons.


originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
Anti-depressants don't just help the patient stop feeling depressed or anxious, they numb the entire emotional spectrum. The main reason a criminal will back out of an illegal activity is because they get too anxious or fearful, without those emotions, and other emotions like empathy, these kids become cold and calculated killers who feel nothing, their emotions have been dampened to the point that they can easily murder people and feel nothing.

edit on 15/2/2018 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 09:09 PM
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Guns don't kill people, orphans do. *sarcasm*
But seriously, he is not a kid., and obviously
needs to be tried as an adult. Even
NRA says he was old enough and responsible
enough to buy and own a gun, if you believe
NRA then convict him as an sane adult. If not
then NRA needs to be behind bars.
Can't have it both ways !



posted on Feb, 15 2018 @ 11:47 PM
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a reply to: network dude




the killing just needs to stop.


Murder is generally considered a moral issue in most (but not all) cultures. While most of us would agree that murder is evil, groups like ISIS, Neo-Nazis, and other hate cultures would not. However, what transcends all systems of morality is individuality and personal liberty. While murder may not be evil in the eyes of a zealot, it is absolutely a violation of personal liberty. We live in an age where politicians and the media are trying to shut out any sense of individuality, and with that goes the respect for liberty. So the killings simply will not stop. The tragedies will get worse. The people will mourn louder. The mutual hatred between the polarized wings of society will become more bitter.

Until we return to a mutual understanding of respect for the individual and personal liberty, it's just going to get worse...and the more we try to use political muscle to stop it, the bloodier it will become.



posted on Feb, 16 2018 @ 12:10 AM
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It seems we now live in a Post-Reality world. Before TV spread via cable, the internet and mass daycare children typically bonded far more strongly with both their parents and peers. There was a great deal of face to face interaction and time spent physically together. These digital platforms have become the norm for the majority of the time with little time spent together; thus the Post-Reality world.

This is one school shooting I believe I can actually see a motive for - Cruz lost his father at age 4 and his adoptive mother just last year. He was a loner with no one to share and bond emotionally to. He wanted to show his pain to as many as possible (notoriety of being a mass shooter) and he chose the school because these were the people he felt isolated from yet wanted their attention. Notice how before 20 years ago there were no mass shootings except by anyone but total psychopaths and people with brain tumors. Something has indeed changed and it's society. This is the price we pay not for having guns but for creating such an empty and removed reality for our children to bond with and to emulate as they grow up.



posted on Feb, 16 2018 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

At no point during my post, did I suggest or imply that guns are bad. First of all, I do not believe that they are bad, nor do I believe in gun control as a response to this incident. Its not gun control that is required. In this case, and many others like it, the failure was not that guns were present, its that people who were insane, were not institutionalised as they ought to have been WAAAAAY before there was any significant threat of a pre-meditated action on the part of that insane individual.

Lanza, should not have been walking around the neighbourhood, because he was too sick for that to be safe for him, or for others. This Cruz fellow, should not have been free to take a dump without supervision, because he was insane. Regular folks in society SHOULD be able to own whatever they damned well please for self defence purposes, as far as the constitution allows for, and for the reasons the constitution allows for. But people with deep, DEEP psychological problems, specifically those which lead a person to violent outbursts, or sociopathic behaviours, should NOT be in regular society. They should be institutionalised for the safety of others, and themselves.



posted on Feb, 16 2018 @ 08:50 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
So long as the defacto "answer" is "we need to outlaw guns" then we miss the greater point of "what has changed"?


Social media. All we see now is carefully crafted highlight reels of everyone elses lives.







 
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