It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Enough is enough. Public massacres and school shootings must stop.

page: 34
63
<< 31  32  33    35  36  37 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 02:04 AM
link   
a reply to: Violater1

Please take what I am about to say in context. I live in the UK and have been a keen shooter for about 35 years. I own several firearms and believe the level of legislation in the UK to be extreme. I believe that police should be armed and that there should be some system in place to allow for legal carry of a personal protection weapon. I legally carried a personal protection weapon for years and was an active pistol shooter in N Ireland where handgun ownership is still allowed.

However I am a big believer in facts.

The murder rate in the US in the latest UNDOC global study is 4.88 per 100'000. The UK murder rate is 0.92. These figures are for homicides and do not include suicide rates. They do not descriminate by homicide method. The population of the US is 6 times that of the UK, yet firearm related homicides (again not just deaths) is 160 times higher despite similar levels of development and culture.

The pictures you show - the first was in France. The shooters got the drop on him. I watched this live as it happened. The presence of armed police did little in this incident. Even with a hand gun the chances of him having much chance here is slim to none.

The second pic was following a police shooting in the UK. There is a time and a place.

The last one was on London Bridge after a lunatic started mowing people down in a vehicle. Exactly what would being armed here have done? The US has had similar instances, and being armed has not had any effect.

You cannot possibly compare the level of gun violence in the UK with that of the US with a straight face.




posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 02:27 AM
link   
The United States sealed it's fate long ago with the closure of mental health facilities. The US solution for dealing with the insane is lock them up after they comit a crime. There is no method to handle someone who's a danger to himself or others until a judge decides they are crazy. And even then eventually they are released because the facilities just don't exist to handle it.

Used to be when someone started acting unstable they could be sent to an insane asylum for protection of themselves and others.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 02:45 AM
link   

originally posted by: Painterz
Let the blood dry on the ground before politicising it eh.


And hey. UK had one school shooting. We sat down as a society and said this must never happen again. We disarmed, got rid of our guns. And lo and behold, no more school shootings.


Well, maybe no more school shootings - but a 13% rise in crime in the UK as of 2017. Some of these crimes involved knives AND guns. So, does it really matter where the crime occurs?

Link 1

Another article states that there was "a 23% increase in firearm offences and a 20% increase in knife crimes".

Link 2



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 03:54 AM
link   

originally posted by: TruthJava

originally posted by: Painterz
Let the blood dry on the ground before politicising it eh.


And hey. UK had one school shooting. We sat down as a society and said this must never happen again. We disarmed, got rid of our guns. And lo and behold, no more school shootings.


Well, maybe no more school shootings - but a 13% rise in crime in the UK as of 2017. Some of these crimes involved knives AND guns. So, does it really matter where the crime occurs?

Link 1

Another article states that there was "a 23% increase in firearm offences and a 20% increase in knife crimes".

Link 2





Your argument only works if there is no rape, burglary or knife crime at all in the USA, otherwise it looks like what it is. Deflection.

Stick to the topic at hand, if you are capable. How about you look at the numbers of gun deaths, school shootings, crimes where firearms are involved etc in the UK (or any other country in the world, including third world if you like) compared to the USA. What would it actually take for your gun-obsessed morons over there to realise that you can’t shoot anyone if there isn’t a gun there to pick up. I know your go-to response is that there are still gun crimes over here, yeah, fair enough, BUT HOW ABOUT YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE KILLED AND ACTUALLY GET THE POINT. Hundreds of deaths, 18 school shooting events by February of 2018, does not justify your ability to carry a firearm and every single person who thinks it does should have their gun confiscated anyway due to mental instability. Scream and shout all you like. From outside it is patently obvious. So many people are dying because there are too many guns, they are too easy to get, and too many morons are in positions of power to keep it that way, including the moron-in-chief. Twenty years ago, while at work, I jokingly responded to news of yet another massacre in a school, that they should just give every single American a gun each and let them get on with it and see who is the last one left, then lock him up (black humour, borne of dismay). Incredibly the OP and several respondents to this thread seriously believe that more guns is the answer!

“Ah, but I’m a responsible gun owner, why should I suffer?” - This isn’t about you, you selfish prick, it’s about the greater good. If you think not having a gun is “suffering”, well boo boo, grow the # up America.

ETA, I’ve read all the gun threads in my 14 years here, read all the arguments in favour, and the only one I have to grudgingly acknowledge is that it may be too late as the genie is out of the bottle already (but is it really though?) All the rest are bull#. You can’t tell me anything about this topic I havent already read many times over, I just had to have my say, I know nobody will listen, but that’s what the forum exists for isn’t it.
edit on 17-2-2018 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 03:57 AM
link   
a reply to: dragonridr

You're not wrong.

This is the issue, not the tools used. But until some idiots get that through their thick skulls, nothing is going to change.

But, you know that. So I'm not going to rant at you.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 04:18 AM
link   
a reply to: seagull

Sorry, but that’s an excuse. If the mentally ill couldn’t pick a gun up, they couldn’t shoot anyone. Not saying that mental health isn’t a problem over there, but it’s just another example of looking at ANYTHING other than the fact that a civilised society should not accept an armed population. The rest of the world cannot all be wrong. Never mind the one or two events elsewhere that may have occurred. It’s the fact that it’s is one or two, and not hundreds that is the real point.

I find it astonishing that America, through its present administration, regards life so sacred that unwanted babies MUST be born, at the same time as finding life so cheap as to make it ridiculously easy to extinguish it with a gun after birth. What a contradiction.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 05:15 AM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

I graduated from Sandhurst. Served in many active zones. I am familiar with firearms. Also familiar with a number of your constitutions amendments - the 2nd being one.

It would be an absolute waste of my time trying to convince you to give up your guns.

You will simply have to accept that the price of your obsession is ever more frequent massacres. Only you guys can say if it’s a price worth paying.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 09:20 AM
link   
a reply to: OrdoAdChao


Why do mass shootings happen in America more? I'd say a big reason is due to our culture. Our society. We've created an amazing race to the bottom for so many individuals that this is what we get. We've mixed that in with "Guns, Guts and Glory" and a general apathy towards violence spurred by entertainment mediums. In short, we're losing our humanity voluntarily.
Our humanity 50 years ago kids were amazed that they could talk to a friend on tin cans and a string, now they have friends around the world they don't really even know.
A mass shooting is the new norm.
violence is everyday life...get on YouTube watch killing in real life, they video our wars. live snipers in action.
50 years ago if someone killed someone we called it murder without a label insanity,
of course if you went into a school shot your friends you must be insane, that's reality not a label for a good excuse to get out of it.
Violence is the new norm in the matrix.
It looks to me like when you line breed a breed of dog to be aggressive you get what is in their genes from human manipulation of inherited physical traits.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 09:28 AM
link   
a reply to: ARM1968


That's laughable.

Meanwhile, people who actually know what they're talking about (and just so happen to be active or retired LEOs) seem to be to be in a *tad* better position to offer an opinion than you.

You were in military? Great. That has zero to do with domestic LE.

But you're right, no one is giving up any guns (in fact, we're pushing to repeal all gun laws we can still). The price is human lives, we get it. It is sad and unfortunate, but you need to TAKE IT UP WITH THE KILLERS not the law abiding citizens exercising their CONSTITUTIONAL right.

If you really were ex-military, you'd respect that above this petty anti-gun agenda. Takes a "special" kind of person to look at the weapon vs the human behind the weapon. Believe me that wasn't a compliment either.

edit on 2/17/2018 by JBurns because: (no reason given)

edit on 2/17/2018 by JBurns because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 09:32 AM
link   
a reply to: ARM1968


Oh, you meant the UK

AKA the police state.

Let me explain something to you. Unlike your country, we're not subjects. We're CITIZENS. This is a Republic, not a monarchy/socialist farce like your country.

We will and must retain the right to defeat tyranny in whatever form it comes (much as we defeated your organized military several times in the past).

Scratch the last statement. A Brit has no business interjecting their opinion (AKA interfering/meddling) in US domestic policies ESPECIALLY Constitutional rights. Your FOREIGN INTERFERENCE is not desired. Take your spooks too, including election meddling Chris Steele and stay out of US domestic affairs. Our country JUST indicted 13 foreigners for this.

Unlike your deluded monarchs and socialist dictators, we realize the PRICE of liberty/freedom is sometimes a high price. But it is always worth it. Has been since our great nation was founded while standing on the neck of tyrannical Britain.


Only you guys can say if it’s a price worth paying


It is entirely worth it. Unlike your country (which has devolved into a socialist nightmare), we realize our rights come with a high cost. Giving up even a single right or aspect of that right is a slap in the face for the millions of AMERICAN patriots who gave their lives for the cause of freedom. What would that do to their sacrifice? It'd be a slap in the face, at a minimum. Apparently the Brits forgot about that though...you know, when you disarmed your population, started spying invasively on all citizens and started throwing your people in jail for free speech "hate speech" (cry babies) and left them with ZERO remedies against your government's oppression.

But it isn't up to us, in any case. You can't ratify amendments to the Constitution that contradict earlier amendments (supremacy). So even 100% of the population joining together can't supersede the second amendment which explicitly forbids ANY infringement for ANY reason

edit on 2/17/2018 by JBurns because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 09:50 AM
link   

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: Violater1

This was the school's fault in my opinion. This kid got expelled for making threats.

Why weren't authorities alerted before? How was he not hit with a felony. That would bar him from buying a gun.

Many of these shooters have had diagnosed mental illnesses. That should stop you from getting a gun.
this was the parents fault in my opinion.
I can put my gun on the kitchen table and my kids will push it out of the way to set down to eat.
My kids understand this tool will kill you dead not like in the movies where all the actors get back up.
If someone breaks in my house my teen can shoot a can off a post with her rifle at her side.
Teach your child what death is all about, don't sugar coat it.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 11:03 AM
link   
a reply to: JBurns

You do realise that this is a global platform, right? This site is used by people from many nations, not just the US.

US posters are happy to throw their opinion onto threads about foreign issues, so why not the other way around?

If you are not willing to hear opinions from a different standpoint and cultural view without being abusive then you are demonstrating a very closed mind. If you looked at it from different perspectives you would see that the US, like all countries, is full of contradictions. You call the UK a police state, yet the US has a higher proportion of their citizens in prison than ANY other country on Earth, with 1% of your population being incarcerated. The US accounts for 25% of the global prison population, but still regards itself as the land of the free. Not an attack, just an example of the contradictions that are rife.

You do make a few decent points such as the hate speech issue, but they are lost in the tirade of vitriol.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 11:21 AM
link   

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: JBurns

You do realise that this is a global platform, right? This site is used by people from many nations, not just the US.

US posters are happy to throw their opinion onto threads about foreign issues, so why not the other way around?

If you are not willing to hear opinions from a different standpoint and cultural view without being abusive then you are demonstrating a very closed mind. If you looked at it from different perspectives you would see that the US, like all countries, is full of contradictions. You call the UK a police state, yet the US has a higher proportion of their citizens in prison than ANY other country on Earth, with 1% of your population being incarcerated. The US accounts for 25% of the global prison population, but still regards itself as the land of the free. Not an attack, just an example of the contradictions that are rife.

You do make a few decent points such as the hate speech issue, but they are lost in the tirade of vitriol.


I embrace all of the rational opinions from people around the world. But when delusional posters claim that the USA is the ONLY country to have this problem, and or belittle our Constitution and Bill of Rights, I see their comments are nothing but Bull poo.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 12:12 PM
link   
a reply to: JBurns

Like I said. It is pointless trying to help you guys. You’re beyond it.

What is laughable is dismissing someone with 14 years military service. Service that often saw enforcement of the law in exceedingly difficult circumstances.

I’m not here to change your minds. It’s impossible. You are blind to reality. All I really want to know is whether or not you consider the regular slaughter of innocents a price worth paying for your precious 2nd amendment.

Oh and Mr. Burns. You and your ilk are exactly why the USA will continually be confronted by these horrors. And as for lecturing the rest of the world, which the USA appears to think it’s good at, about freedoms, liberties etc. You should really examine your political mire and the family’s who run you pretty much like a cartel. Trump might actually be one of the better things to happen to you for decades.

edit on 17-2-2018 by ARM1968 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 12:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: Violater1

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: JBurns

You do realise that this is a global platform, right? This site is used by people from many nations, not just the US.

US posters are happy to throw their opinion onto threads about foreign issues, so why not the other way around?

If you are not willing to hear opinions from a different standpoint and cultural view without being abusive then you are demonstrating a very closed mind. If you looked at it from different perspectives you would see that the US, like all countries, is full of contradictions. You call the UK a police state, yet the US has a higher proportion of their citizens in prison than ANY other country on Earth, with 1% of your population being incarcerated. The US accounts for 25% of the global prison population, but still regards itself as the land of the free. Not an attack, just an example of the contradictions that are rife.

You do make a few decent points such as the hate speech issue, but they are lost in the tirade of vitriol.


I embrace all of the rational opinions from people around the world. But when delusional posters claim that the USA is the ONLY country to have this problem, and or belittle our Constitution and Bill of Rights, I see their comments are nothing but Bull poo.


Rational I assume being those who agree with you?



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 01:11 PM
link   
The contradictions are everywhere. It simply does not matter at all how many people, including children, get shot to death in America. Tens, hundreds or even thousands, it is completely irrelevant. You must have your guns!!!

A Muslim kills someone, and Muslims need to be banned from coming to America!

You can’t change the second amendment, er, the clues is in the name, it’s an amendment itself! How many amendments actually are there?

People with mental health issues are being blamed for mass shootings, so Trump changes the law to make it easier for people with mental health issues to get hold of guns!

America is a lost cause, it seems to be flushing itself down the toilet and is determined to resist any attempt to stop itself from doing it.

Still, as long as you got your guns eh. If your kids pick one up and kills you, or themselves, it doesn’t matter, guns are great. (Sarcasm)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 01:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: ARM1968
a reply to: Xcathdra

I graduated from Sandhurst. Served in many active zones. I am familiar with firearms. Also familiar with a number of your constitutions amendments - the 2nd being one.

It would be an absolute waste of my time trying to convince you to give up your guns.

You will simply have to accept that the price of your obsession is ever more frequent massacres. Only you guys can say if it’s a price worth paying.


Our 2nd amendment is courtesy of your Royal Family and was adopted to ensure something like that never happens again. It is to protect the people from the abuses of an unjust government who decides they dont need to govern by consent.


Guns do not kill people and as a person in the military you should know this. Cigarettes kill more people in the US than guns do. The same holds true with drunk driving. Hell motor vehicle accidents with fatalities kill more people than guns do in the US.

Tell me if the UK gun laws are so good then why are all police officers in N. Ireland armed? Why do police agencies across the rest of the UK have armed units? Why are the guards around the Royal palaces armed? Why are your VIP's provided with armed security details?

The city of Glasgow and Coventry are in the top 10 for the most dangerous cities in Europe.

Even in countries that have outlawed civilian ownership of guns have gun crime. Think what you want but our 2nd amendment is there for a reason and elements of my government would love for nothing more than to get rid of it. It is a right I will defend to my death.



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 01:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: ARM1968
What is laughable is dismissing someone with 14 years military service. Service that often saw enforcement of the law in exceedingly difficult circumstances.

and I have more than 15 years of law enforcement experience in 2 states.



originally posted by: ARM1968
All I really want to know is whether or not you consider the regular slaughter of innocents a price worth paying for your precious 2nd amendment.

Yes


Are 450,000 deaths related to smoking each year enough to outlaw tobacco?
Are 35,000 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents each year enough to ban automobiles?
Are the 10,000 deaths related to drunk driving each year enough to ban alcohol?

In case you didnt know the number of deaths caused by "assault rifles" is negligible compared to other weapons. More people are killed by knives each year than they are "assault rifles".

Are we to add knives to the list of what should be outlawed?

Or should we recognize the fact that none of the items listed cause any deaths and in reality it is the person manipulating those items that do?
edit on 17-2-2018 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 01:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

It's the LEVEL of gun crime that is the obvious issue. Gun crime in the UK is tiny compared to the US. The chances of a beat cop encountering a gun in the UK is virtually non existent.

Police in NI are armed due to the ongoing threat from terrorists in the Province (ironically often armed with weapons sourced from American sympathisers). The last fatal police shooting in NI was in 2006. Armed police units are used for all manner of crime where there is evidence that a weapon (not just a gun) is likely to be used, and their deployment has to come from a senior officer. VIPs are protected by armed personnel as they are at high threat from terrorists. Any armed CP detail in the UK are members of the police or military. Civillian CP teams are unarmed.

Glasgow and Coventry may have high levels of violence by European standards but the gun crime rate is still miniscule compared to virtually any US city.

You cannot say that guns don't kill people then say that cigarettes and cars do. Is it the person or the item?



posted on Feb, 17 2018 @ 01:55 PM
link   
a reply to: Violater1




new topics

top topics



 
63
<< 31  32  33    35  36  37 >>

log in

join