The Myth of Votan and the megaliths of the Mayas

The traditions of the Maya Tzeltal people speak of a great cultural hero called Votan, who first arrived in the highlands of Chiapas from a mysterious island kingdom to the East called Valum Votan. Many have seen in the quasi-mythical figure of Votan an old-world missionary, a Phoenician legislator or even a survivor from the lost Atlantis, who came to Central America with a number of his companions to build the civilization of the Mayas.
Votan founded a splendid empire of the Tzeltal people called Valum Chivim, in honor of his mythical motherland, which had Palenque (Nachan - "City of the Snakes") as its capital.

Much of the story of Votan is based on a mysterious and now lost hieroglyphic manuscript, which came in the possession of the then bishop of Chiapas Nuñez de la Vega in the late 17th Century. Independent corroboration of the story comes however from inscriptions found at Palenque. These include a long list of predynastic kings beginning in 3309 BC (two centuries before the beginning of the current Long Count of the Maya calendar), whose ancestors had come from a mysterious land called Matwiil, symbolized by a cormorant bird and believed to be on an island surrounded by mists.

This new article (The Megalithic Ruins of Palenque - Uncharted Ruins) explores the possibility that Palenque was indeed the ancient city of Nachan, capital of a megalithic empire that occupied much of present-day Mexico and Guatemala.

a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

There's a possibility they came from another planet via portals.

Look up the Green Children of Woolpit. Supposedly they came from a faraway land and somehow teleported to our world. Perhaps a similar situation happened in Mesoamerica only the alien visitors established a civilization.

This is the kind of cool stuff that ATS needs more of .

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

There's a possibility they came from another planet via portals.

Look up the Green Children of Woolpit. Supposedly they came from a faraway land and somehow teleported to our world. Perhaps a similar situation happened in Mesoamerica only the alien visitors established a civilization.

Actually, the Green Children of Woolpit were said to have emerged from a cave. Perhaps the inner Earth.....

That would be Odin. I am not sure what viking word would correlate to the rest, but the people down there looked to see ships coming of Odin's return with the serpent of the viking ships on the bow.

There were some Mayan people who went back with the vikings and their offspring still live in Northern Europe. Odin is a line of rulers, he was not really a god. They gave his royal line god status over the years. I think this ruling line went back to the BC era if I remember right, I found a lot of information in interpretations of old writings and some showed Odin did start a settlement somewhere down in that area. The Indians in America did not trust the vikings, but in the early years they did have a different ruler who befriended the Mayan people...and traded stuff for Gold from the Mayans. Once upon a time gold was not that valuable, they mixed it with tin to make a harder metal out of it. It appears that Odin collected this worthless metal so he could have something to trade with the people of his country with, he was trying to make it so the people could buy stuff with a worthless soft metal. The people did not have anything that was useful to trade to get food in some areas. They worked for the king, they needed something worthless to put a value on. Nothing has changed, gold is not actually worth much, it doesn't even make a good spoon.

There are articles about this out on the net, we had a discussion about this at the ancient artifact society I belong to. There are some pretty good records about the vikings and an area that fits the description of the Mayan cities.

There's a world map for the location of Cormorants:

datazone.birdlife.org...

The strange thing is that the only places "East" of Peru would be the East coast of the USA, and the West Coast of Africa. From maps of the world, snakes are just about everywhere.

The only islands on the East coast would be Manhattan and the surrounding areas. So why would some people want to move all the way across the continent to the other coast?

I've found other maps that include Norway and the Uk. Maybe it depends on species:

upload.wikimedia.org...

A bit skeptical, but Wotan was a popular Germanic name of Odin.

lt's also a god of the Nordic Vikings, who did indeed travel far and wide with their ships.

White man always building something artificial to put a tax and tithe system in place.

Jesus does not approve.

a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

I'll tell ya, I don't think that much is impossible when it comes to how far and to where the Vikings may have traveled. That said, I'm not sure how the pyramids and city of Palenque would translate to a city erected in honor of a Norse homeland...maybe they're implying that the initial city was in honor of a Viking homeland, and the style evolved after?

That website is inaccessible for me, so I can read the article to see how much detail it goes into about things. It seems to be hard to find decent information on things like "Valum Chivim" and "Matwiil," so I'll have to wait until I'm on a computer without stupid security settings to look into it further.

a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

What i know about the Maya i could fit on the back of an envelope so thanks for sharing this. It's always good to learn something new.

a reply to: stormcell

That's a map of modern locations of cormorants. It certainly doesn't stand to reason that the map would have been the same in 3309 BC - if in fact cormorants actually have anything to do with it (other than the English version of the name).

a reply to: rickymouse

Definitely not Vikings. Aside from anything, the Vikings only really developed open ocean going vessels in the late 7th / early 8th century AD - way after that 3309BC date. Always possible an early ship may have been blown seriously off course and survived an Atlantic crossing it had no business surviving - but to then manage a return journey? Extremely improbable.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: rickymouse

Definitely not Vikings. Aside from anything, the Vikings only really developed open ocean going vessels in the late 7th / early 8th century AD - way after that 3309BC date. Always possible an early ship may have been blown seriously off course and survived an Atlantic crossing it had no business surviving - but to then manage a return journey? Extremely improbable.

There is evidence throughout history of many civilizations visiting a new land across the sea way before Christ was born. The myths of atlantis are not myths, they are writings that have been distorted of a civilization out at sea.

I researched the genetics of some of the Indian tribes, the lanope are related to the Norwegeans. The Ojibwa are related to the people living on the Gaza mountains and other tribes are related to different populations around the world.

www.theepochtimes.com...

mormonbandwagon.com...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

The Mayans genetics are found mixed in with the Sami people of the Scandanavian countries, including Finland. Evidence shows that these people moved there about three thousand years ago. That evidence has been verified, how they got from the area where the Mayans lived to the area of the vikings has not been found. By looking at the old ruinic texts and comparing them to the Mayan writings and sayings, you can postulate that Odin's crew was there long ago. The Mayan version said they came on a ship similar to the ones the early vikings used. The old Ruinic writings talk about bringing some people back and having a colony in the area where these people come from. Now, this comes from about fifteen hundred BC. There is evidence found lately that the people from India had great ships capable of making long sea journeys as far as three thousand five hundred years ago.

The genetics of Some Finns is related to the people from India also, along with the genetics of the Old English, the Old Germans, the Old French, the Dark Finns, and the Dark Italians. I belong to this group, but I am not full dark Finn, my grandfather was way more dark than I am. This is mentioned to show a relationship to people of the India people who built those ships and the people of far northern Europe. Both came from a group that may have originated up in Canada, related somewhat to a group that coexisted with the Eskimos there. Now, not all of the India people are in this group, there was a lot of blending within that estimated five thousand year ago or more exodus. Where these people originated from before intermingling with the eskimos and eating that diet is not known. Think about this, Eskimos eat lots of things with Finns on them, so did the Finnish people. But those dark Finns are in all populations around there now, not just Finland, think of Lapland, the concentrations are higher in that swatch. The genetic immigration information shows that they came through scandinavia first then down to India, not the other way. Diet and environmental factors determine epigenetic factors that are used to determine what way people went. That is a science not a belief or opinion of people, a science that can roughly show patterns of travel, the basis of all our ancestry genetics is based on diet and environmental factors of our ancestors. They can use this to trace where someone originated back over four to five thousand years pretty accurately.

So the technology of ship building thousands of years ago that fueled the ships of a lot of civilizations was possible long ago in Northern Europe. Also, the story of Thors hammer, thor being an offspring of the original Odin, who knows how many generations later, has information that can be used to show that the Chinese invention of gunpowder was acquired by early Vikings. Odin may refer to the line of Dan, one of the lost tribes of Israel. The Jewish people were great traders, the tribe of Dan was probably a kingdome that traded with them. There is also some evidence from China of trading with a people up in the Scandinavian area. That may have been how the clan of Odin got the ability to make thors hammer. A chunk of flint that made a spark to light a fuse possibly.

I belong to a group of diffusionists in archeology who try to get access to ancient writings to see what they possibly say and compare the texts to that of known archeology. The field of archeology has gotten better but still relies on evidence that was not interpretted correctly by people who rewrote history long ago to gain prestige. Many of those people wanted to show that the people who were overthrown were heathens and had no technology at all, just canoes. The vikings had some powerful warriors, but their group also contained good people too, regular farmers and families like we have today. History seems to look a lot at power, not regular people. They teach us of the great leaders and armies in history and ignore the regular people and culture. The powerful enslaved the masses with their armies. They changed the history by destroying evidence that existed and pushing their history on others. We are not far removed from that, even today propaganda runs our societies. It is evident in the political chaos in this country today.

a reply to: rickymouse
Please stop before you give me an aneurysm >_<

There were some Mayan people who went back with the vikings and their offspring still live in Northern Europe.

....I don't even know where to begin on this BS. Its simply not true.

The Indians in America did not trust the vikings, but in the early years they did have a different ruler who befriended the Mayan people...and traded stuff for Gold from the Mayans.

First off... the native americans traded peacefully with the Norsemen according to Vinland Saga, until some thievery happened. So they clearly did trust them. Secondly, that makes no sense because gold was not a proper currency of the Norsemen! Cattle was the original currency, and silver took over later on as the convenient common money.

They worked for the king, they needed something worthless to put a value on. Nothing has changed, gold is not actually worth much, it doesn't even make a good spoon.

Gold was valuable because it represented the sun which was worshipped worldwide. And it HAS changed because gold is excellent to use in surgery because the body wont reject it, and also conductive in electronics, etc.

The Mayans genetics are found mixed in with the Sami people of the Scandanavian countries, including Finland. Evidence shows that these people moved there about three thousand years ago.

Uh no... they've been there for tens of thousands of years. You're thinking of the Finns and that theory is also trashed, they came from the greater population of Saami.

By looking at the old ruinic texts and comparing them to the Mayan writings and sayings, you can postulate that Odin's crew was there long ago. The Mayan version said they came on a ship similar to the ones the early vikings used. The old Ruinic writings talk about bringing some people back and having a colony in the area where these people come from. Now, this comes from about fifteen hundred BC.

Now you're making # up. Which Saga/Edda are you claiming this occur in? Quote it.

So the technology of ship building thousands of years ago that fueled the ships of a lot of civilizations was possible long ago in Northern Europe.

No it wasn't. We didnt even have SAILS until the viking era!

We are talking about Odin, Odin is older than the vikings, they go back to BC. Odin was a line of kings, not originally a god, but they gave him god status. Over the years people started to refer to Odin as god, and of course, Christianity blew that way out of proportion, blasting it without investigating it.



Until about thirty five years ago everyone who said they found viking stuff in this country were considered nuts. Vikings were never here according to the people knowledgeable about these things. Do you remember those days?

The evidence was there to show vikings were here before Columbus, that is how the British empire claimed the US, because their ally, Norway had records. but those records were ignored by Americans who were led to believe that Columbus discovered America.

There is evidence all over this country that shows that many different cultures were here in America trading and teaching the natives, right down to Mexico and other places in South America. Do you think that the shape of pyramids all over the world just happened by coincidence? Hell no, that would be impossible. The ones in Egypt are actually distorted compared to the ones in most of the world. There are a few in Northern Europe and China that have the smooth sides, no steps. Lots in China from my studies, but those are not real pyramids according to those who want tourists in Egypt and that area. Deny something exists so what they have is only real. I am surprised people fall for that crap yet today, most people are not that smart. They have a lot of old beautiful elaborate temples in India too, yet we do not hear much of those huge structures which are way more interesting that the marketed pyramids in Egypt.

I am not fabricating anything, I read many hundreds of articles written by people who examined evidence that shows this as a possibility. Their articles were not accepted well because they went against consensus of the time, they went against what was believed to be true by those who were in archeology. They provided evidence that was discounted as not relevant by professionals even though it makes much more sense than the present theories that were accepted, theories that were formed by people with influence and prestige that actually had little evidence to back them in the first place.

What you are saying is that I should be accepting the consensus of the time with incorrectly acquired evidence and dismissal of anything that does not fit into these tales that formed them. I will not blindly accept an interpretation without evaluating it and checking if the evidence is pertinant to the conclusion drawn by the author. Most people will, they are considered normal, believing what they are told without question. I have not been on ATS this long to just parrot what I am told is true, I am here to find the truth, to collect evidence on both sides and evaluate it to see if I can find reality. This distortion of consensus of the day plagues many sciences, especially medicine and nutrition. I chose to study that now because it is more relevant to my future. I am not normal, I will evaluate things I read or hear to see if they are actually true or relevant. I am tired of automatically taking opinions (touted as real with evidence to back them) as being the truth, sometimes they are true, sometimes they aren't. I make my opinions by looking at everything, I have an open mind.

By the way, you can get poisoned by ionic gold, it reacts with the nitrogen acids in people's bodies. Crystals and electrolytic solutions can actually conduct as well as gold, gold has lost it's appeal in this field in science now.


Saami people and Finns came from a common ancestor, you have to watch how you read things. Finns did not come from the Saami. Saami did not come from the Finns either. That happened a real long time ago. Other groups of people probably also evolved from that common ancestor, but nobody may have tested or compared the connection. The original group was sort of an eskimo individual. What I talk about is the newest findings and I like reading genetics articles and have learned to make sure to observe what is being said. Somehow some Mayan or it could be aztec, I am not sure, got mixed in with some of the Sammi, that is what the article I read a few years ago addressed, there was no research done on other scandinavians in that, it could exist in many different groups of them. You cannot say it does not exist if you don't look for it. Now, that interaction is probably a couple thousand or more years old, geneticists know how to go back and compare that stuff, I don't. I have done a lot of genetic research reading, reading many thousands of articles on epigenetics. but this is above my knowledge. That is for experts who actually have studied that kind of stuff to determine, I just read a few articles addressing that connection.

I don't make things up but I do share what I have researched. I also am capable of misinterpretting things, but I try to get it right, which took lots of research to learn how to evaluate things. But some times I do make a misinterprettation just like others do. I can spend hours reading information on how to interpret a five paragraph research article's content sometimes so I do not misinterpret how to use it. I wish some of the experts would do that, half the interpretations of research are not evaluated right, that is why there are so many opposing opinions in science.

a reply to: rickymouse
35 years ago was 1983! I don't even think you know basic history. Helge Ingstad discovered Lanse aux meadows in 1960!!

And that was NOT in your country! There is no proof the Norsemen ever went to the US. I used to believe the Kensington stone was real until I studied it. It seems far more likely to be retconned by someone who wanted it to be true.

that is how the British empire claimed the US, because their ally, Norway had records

AGAIN! You don't even know basic history! Norway wasnt even a COUNTRY then. And you seem to not know that England was the ENEMY of us during the Northern War!! Like holy, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

You also completely avoided answering my question asking you to source which Norse edda/saga has
"The old Ruinic writings talk about bringing some people back and having a colony in the area where these people come from. Now, this comes from about fifteen hundred BC."
Rhetorical question because I KNOW you made it up and the sagas/eddas say nothing about that era.

Do you think that the shape of pyramids all over the world just happened by coincidence?

Do you think the same design for weapons worldwide is coincidence? Yes! People make things the most logical way. You want a high building? Make the base huge and getting gradually smaller. Bound to look similar worldwide. This is not to mention the Mayan ones are thousands of years later than the Mesopotamian/Egyptian ones.

It is well accepted here now that the vikings were here before Columbus. Before thirty five years ago or so, it was preposterous to even believe that anyone other than Columbus discovered America even though Columbus knew this place was here from old maritime maps he had got hold of. Look for the evidence on how England claimed America from the Spanish in the international courts back after Spain claimed all of America. Yes, they had a world court even back then, England proved their alli territory had discovered America way before Columbus. That Alli was the territory of Norway.

There has been so much evidence that shows the vikings were here way before columbus that they had to change our history. I did not waste my time bookmarking those articles, and even if I did that was probably three computers ago, that information is long gone. Finding those articles without exact wording will be hard and a waste of my time to prove something to a person who will not accept evidence they do not want to. I wasn't born yesterday, I know how to deal with people that deny your evidence is not relevant when in fact it is.



Norway was an area back then that had a civilization, sure, it was not called Norway. Anyone with a brain would not be intimidated by your response, I am talking about the area, not the new name of the area. You need to get better at using this technique before trying to challenging me, I can easily prove most of what you say is hogwash.

As far as the kensington runestones being real....I know someone who did some dating on the carvings and the carvings are pretty old. He owns a company who does work for archeolosts and carbon dating. He could not say whether the stones were carved there or if it was hauled there at a later date though, so there is no evidence that they were made there yet. Just that the carving was done within a certain period of time. So there is no hoax that they were made long ago, it is where they were made that is what disqualifies them. I know of a lot of stone carvings that fall into the same situation. The carvings are dated to have been done long ago but someone could have imported them, I have seen some of these stones on display at an organization I belong to and have held them and examined them. Of course, the guy who found these stones decided that he could make some to sell, so of the pile out there, only a quarter are actually real, some are forgeries. I knew someone who owns some real ones and some fake ones, he died last year. He was disappointed that he had purchased some that were not real. But even then, the real ones might have been brought here from elsewhere and hidden in the cave where they were found. The guy who found these was not an archeologist and destroyed evidence that could have shown how long ago they were put into the cave. So, there is no way of knowing if they were made here or not.

I know some people who are experts in the field and make documentaries. I get to discuss some of their adventures at lunch and supper with these guys at the conference which lasts three days each year.

The chance of cultures building the same shape buildings like pyramids far away from each other with no contact through history is almost zero. Think about that, I have studied the design of many tools and there I can see that as being relevant, but pyramids....no way. To me, I would think a step pyramid would have been a good design to grow plants on, you could keep the plants out of the reach of deer, yet attract the deer to the area and get meat. Pyramids had a reason, they were not just religious artifacts. It took a real lot of work to make a pyramid.

a reply to: rickymouse
I don't know why I bother with you when you dont read my posts and keep repeating your own lies. FIFTY EIGHT YEARS AGO it was proven the Norseman settled in Canada around 1000ad. So NO it was not 'preposterous' 35 years ago. Rather than answering questions you know you're wrong about, you endlessly deflect then say others minds are closed. You're ridiculous.

originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: rickymouse
I don't know why I bother with you when you dont read my posts and keep repeating your own lies. FIFTY EIGHT YEARS AGO it was proven the Norseman settled in Canada around 1000ad. So NO it was not 'preposterous' 35 years ago. Rather than answering questions you know you're wrong about, you endlessly deflect then say others minds are closed. You're ridiculous.

Ongoing problem since they eliminated the ignore function many years ago.

Harte

originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: rickymouse
I don't know why I bother with you when you dont read my posts and keep repeating your own lies. FIFTY EIGHT YEARS AGO it was proven the Norseman settled in Canada around 1000ad. So NO it was not 'preposterous' 35 years ago. Rather than answering questions you know you're wrong about, you endlessly deflect then say others minds are closed. You're ridiculous.

Maybe in Canada they accepted it fifty eight years ago, but not here in the USA. When I graduated in seventy three, Columbus discovered America, no ifs ands or butts. No teacher even taught that the vikings were here, in fact I was taught the opposite, that the viking thing was fake. English people knew long ago that the norse were here. Not much changed for ten years, then in the early eighties there was some evidence being allowed to show they were here.

Remember, you live in Canada, the English knew that there were vikings and english allies here before columbus, Canada did not break away from england and change their history to show columbus was here first.