How I prove God exists.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
Because Christianity claims god has no creator.
Aka Christianity poops all over that little theory..

No, that is Christianity exploiting "that little theory".
Cicero's logic demands the existence somewhere of an "unmoved Mover", and the argument of people like Thomas Aquinas identifies the Biblical God with the same "unmoved Mover", regarding him as the "uncreated Creator".

I believe there is God/a creator entity/source of all there is. I don't feel I need to 'prove' it to anyone else.

The ones who don't believe in God, well that's part of their life-journey. And hopefully their journey will one day lead them back to Him, just like mine has.

No-one preached to me and brainwashed me with stories of a terrible wrath if I don't believe in Jesus and God. It was my life experiences that led me to Him.

Our life experiences, be they good or bad, don't happen to us, they happen for us.

We have all been forced to live by a materialistic greedy system. If you're not a materialistic type of person and don't want to join the 'I want more than I need' rat-race because you realise the 'more' bit is really just a carrot on a stick that you'll never catch up with, well then you're branded a lazy dead-beat bum that deserves vilification and misery. They think that if they take everything from you, your possessions, your money, your home, even food, your hunger will force you back on their treadmill. They couldn't be more wrong.

You see, I found my faith in God after I'd lost everything, He was the only thing that was there when I found myself right at the very bottom of my darkest despair. I found I had lots to be thankful for in my life, and none of them concerned money or possessions and all that worthless stuff. I had the love of my family that I hadn't really seen nor appreciated before. I saw the trees and grass and all the wonderful life that surrounded me when I took my dog a walk, I mean I actually saw it all for the first time in my life now I was free of the stress of trying to hang on to possessions and always chasing the next quid. That saying 'born again' always sounded corny to me, but now it meant something. I felt 'new', and my soul felt free.

So you see, forcing people into misery, despair, poverty, hunger, etc, doesn't make them scramble back on that treadmill, it causes many to turn to God, faith, life, love. These are the only things left when all else is lost. And appreciating all this is more fulfilling and more rewarding than any amount of material wealth. I can never go back to my old way of life. I don't even want to. Money is utterly worthless compared to life.

Forcing people into poverty with the idea it will 'persuade' them to keep the soul-less profit treadmill rolling is having the opposite effect - people are realising, and more people will realise that there is more to life than money and possessions, like I did. And they'll turn to the only thing left that no-one can take away: God.

In their frantic efforts to maintain the status quo, TPTB are actually speeding up the awakening. The more effort they put in to avoid it, the faster humanity will get there.

It's not all from just random chance, to me.

How life could ever be created from ancient chemical soups, bacterial glop, carbon, all mixed together, wait for billions of years, and POOF! - life is magically created out of crap heaps. Then, it sparks out all future life forms, almost as if it were all designed that way

Just by dumb luck, then?

Everything is brilliant, all life is unique, and special, in itself, all together, on Earth.

a reply to: doobydoll

But god isn’t real. Nobody has actually experienced it and yet so many people have their personal idea about it. It is a concept of a perfect thing that encompasses all reality. It is only in the believers head. An imaginary concept that keeps weak minds feeling safe and watched over. A safety blanket in your mind. An emotional support pet that nobody can take away from you and flush down an airport toilet.

a reply to: turbonium1

Is chemistry magic? We know that chemistry is at the heart of all life and all matter. Everywhere you look, you will see chemical reactions that play out like toppling dominoes. Why is it hard to think that chemistry and natural forces started all of this?

originally posted by: Pachomius
1. I define God as in concept first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
2. So I search for everything with a beginning to its existence.
3. And I find everything I experience to be in existence having a beginning to its existence.
4. There, that is the evidence of God existing, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
5. Wherefore God exists, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Yeh.. uhm.. Between steps 3 and 4. You're missing a "little bit".

As in, explanation of *how* these things began. Saying, 'God did it' is the most basic and puerile of religious arguments for the existence of a god.

You've actually explained or proved nothing apart from your own opinion, which, unfortunately for you, is not evidence of God's existence.

Now, if that's how YOU believe it, fair enough. But it wouldn't stand up in any type of real logical debate.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Cicero was from when a time when they probably thought the world was flat.. which is very fitting as almost to a man flat earthers are Christians..

I have no idea why people site the ancients, who got VERY little correct by modern standards , as credible sources..


Cicero hated democracy, thought women were property, and just a laundry list of other atrocities..

If your gonna pretend Cicero had all the answers, then you have to accept all the bad stuff too..

Ditto for the Bible.. doubly so for the Bible..

a reply to: JoshuaCox
The principles of logic are not affected by developments in the physical sciences.
If the proposition "If A, then B" is true in one period of history, it is true in another.

Incidentally, the classical Greek/Roman world knew that the Earth is round.

a reply to: doobydoll

A) Do you ever think you might have been strong enough to handle those hard ships all on your own, and just used god as a placebo effect..

B) I don’t know what you mean by an awaking.. because atheists and agnostics FAR out paces the recruitment of Christianity..

C) I think you might should research the horrors commuted by Christians in the name of jesus.. Christianity has ONLY been a religion of love and peace for LESS THAN A CENTURY..

Way less really.. as it was Christians FROM THE POOLPIT who pushed slavery AND then went on a bloody rampage after abolition..


Want to know the difference between southern baptists and baptists.. and any other church that adds southern to their name???

The southern baptists said god ordained slavery so we should keep it... the northern churches CHANGED and decided slavery was evil. So the Baptist Church split..

Southern baptists = pro slavery

Baptists equals= pro abolition.


Conclusion....

It blows my mind the just monumental ego to decide that Christianity was wrong for 1950 years, but in the last 50 years they finally got it right...

a reply to: Pachomius

My Granddad was very religious (Church of England) and when I asked him once about proving that he is real he said "You can't. If you prove an all powerful being exists then he wouldn't be all powerful"

Side note: I recently decided to read the Bible and man is there a lot of fruity stuff that happens in the beginning, I'm mean things like Incest etc. and figures giving up their daughters so that they could save angels. Also can someone explain why God is described as "US" or "THREE FIGURES" a few times in the few dozen or so chapters of the Bible.

Here's something to ponder on, even if people think they have a grip on formal logic.

We must understand that all of our 5 senses can be deceived constantly, which are rooted in our minds. Now chew on that for awhile and try to prove anything.

a reply to: Realtruth

I believe gravity exists and can be proven.

I am on Earth, in my house, in the front room.

I pick up a ball. I let it go. It drops to the fall.

I repeat that 100 times. Every time it falls to the floor.

I can record that phenomenon using video, audio, motion, vibration, etc. I can then look and compare that analysis against every 100 retries.

Where are my senses deceiving me? At which point in the 100 attempts of the ball falling to the floor were my senses being deceived?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: turbonium1

Is chemistry magic? We know that chemistry is at the heart of all life and all matter. Everywhere you look, you will see chemical reactions that play out like toppling dominoes. Why is it hard to think that chemistry and natural forces started all of this?

When all the chemicals are known already, countless combinations of them, and in all proportions - even when it is meant to create 'life' out of nothing, scientists cannot create life from any chemical soups, or anything else, either.


And we actually KNOW the building blocks of all life, as well!


It's like throwing spark plugs, pistons, etc. on a garage floor, and expecting it to form into a engine, after millions of years pass by!!

But the engine CAN be built, if we want, unlike some chemical potion that will somehow create life!

All by chance, of course!

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes they are..

To Cicero slavery was logical..

Women being property was logical..

What is and was considered logical has never remained the same..

Logic is subjective or at the very , very least POV..

From an ancients pov it was perfectly logical to kill your wife for adultery..

It was perfectly logical to sack a city (rape and murder everyone)..


Why don’t you try applying all of Cicero’s logic to your modern life???

Easy, because it is no longer logical..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

1. Most things do not move themselves. They are moved by (or originate from) other things.
2. Anything that is not self-moving eventually comes to a stop, if it ceases to be moved by something else.
3. But the universe has a whole has begun moving, and has not come to a stop.
4. Therefore there must be somewhere a self-Mover, which originates the movement of everything else.

If you can demonstrate exactly how the above reasoning process is invalidated by modern developments, then you may have a point.
This is the philosophy forum, arguments need to be conducted in a philosophical manner.


P.S. I've been quoting his argument from memory. I've now been able to track down one of his versions in the SOMNIUM SCIPIONIS;

19. For that which moves all the time is eternal; but that which imparts motion to something else and itself receives its motion from some other source, must have a limit to its life because its motion can end. Therefore that only which moves of itself, because it never abandons itself so it never ceases to move. Moreover this is the source, this is the original cause of motion to all other things that move.

Now an original cause has no origin; for all things originate from it, but the original cause itself cannot arise from anything else. For it would not be an original cause if it had originated from something else. And as it has no origin so it never perishes. For if the original cause once perish it will neither be itself reproduced by another nor will it create another from itself; since all things must necessarily spring from the original cause. Hence we see that the original cause of motion resides in that, which is itself self-motive. Now that can neither be born nor die; otherwise the whole heaven and all nature would collapse and come to a standstill, nor would it find any power to give it the first impulse of motion.

originally posted by: noonebutme
a reply to: Realtruth

I believe gravity exists and can be proven.

I am on Earth, in my house, in the front room.

I pick up a ball. I let it go. It drops to the fall.

I repeat that 100 times. Every time it falls to the floor.

I can record that phenomenon using video, audio, motion, vibration, etc. I can then look and compare that analysis against every 100 retries.

Where are my senses deceiving me? At which point in the 100 attempts of the ball falling to the floor were my senses being deceived?

Your senses weren't deceived, only what you think caused it...

Gravity doesn't exist. It is a theory, not a fact - and it is certainly not proven to exist.


A balloon is not held to Earth by 'gravity'.

This force is able to hold the moon in place, but not a little balloon?

A rocket shoots up into orbit, and we can float in ZERO gravity? The rocket breaks out of Earth's orbit, and into deep space, and ZERO gravity. Yet, about 250,000 miles away from Earth, the moon is HELD IN PLACE BY EARTH'S GRAVITY?


Gravity is supposedly the same force holding ALL objects to Earth, no matter the weight, or size, of the object. A needle falls to Earth, same as a 20 ton block of steel does.

The whole theory of gravity is that all objects drop, and they fall to Earth at the exact same speed....free fall speed. Which is also termed to be 'the speed of gravity'.

And now gravity can't hold down a balloon, an astronaut nearby, yet it clamps on to a moon, some 1/4 million miles away??!

As if..

Another problem...

A balloon rises up, which defeats the great force capable of holding a distant moon in place.

And somehow, gravity has made Earth's whole atmosphere attach itself to Earth, which is supposedly spinning around at 1000 mph! No grip on a little balloon - just on the entire atmosphere of Earth!

Gravity is utter crap

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: doobydoll

But god isn’t real. Nobody has actually experienced it and yet so many people have their personal idea about it. It is a concept of a perfect thing that encompasses all reality. It is only in the believers head. An imaginary concept that keeps weak minds feeling safe and watched over. A safety blanket in your mind. An emotional support pet that nobody can take away from you and flush down an airport toilet.

It is not in my head. It is in my heart. In my soul.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone of the existence of a God because it would be an impossible task. People will get there in the end and in their own time like i did.

I'm not a bible-thumper and i don't follow any religion nor do i go to church. I follow what feels right in my heart, and i try to be aware of any consequences my actions might have on others. I'm not always successful, I still consciously make wrong decisions that end up hurting others in some small way, so small they haven't been aware of it. But it matters because I am aware of what i did/do. And i can't stand it. So i simply get up and start again. I don't give up trying, i'll never give up.

It's not just hard times that have led me to believe in a 'source' or a God, but i have psychic experiences too, and other types of paranormal experiences. I can only describe them and i have done here on ATS in threads I've made, I can't prove any of it. But it's all very real.

Just because other people don't experience or believe in spirituality/God/paranormal/etc, doesn't make such things any less real.

Call me and people like me 'weak minded' and say we live in a dream-world instead of reality and all the rest of it, I've heard it all before and worse lol. But i smile because I know that what i know is absolutely real, and my happiness and contentment with life is founded on good deeds/intentions and therefore can never be taken away or made worse for me, unlike when my life revolved around just money.

I can no longer be hurt nor manipulated nor controlled by threatening to take valuables away from me, because I have none. What valuables i have now are in my heart and soul and my deeds, such valuables as these cannot be bought no matter how rich and powerful you are, and no human can steal them from me. And that makes me feel pretty powerful, and rather privileged, not weak.

originally posted by: Misterlondon
This is not proof God exists.. It's your opinion..

Dear Misterlondon, let us work as to concur on what is proof and what is opinion.

As you bring up the word opinion, certainly you have a concept of what is opinion, so let us all here dear colleagues read from Mister his concept of what is opinion.

I will from my part proffer my concept of what is proof.

Proof in regard to God existing is the evidence which leads us to come to the certainty on the existence of God.

There, that is my concept of proof in regard to the existence of God.

Let us all sit back and await with bated breath to read Mister's concept of what is opinion.

originally posted by: Pachomius
1. I define God as in concept first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
2. So I search for everything with a beginning to its existence.
3. And I find everything I experience to be in existence having a beginning to its existence.
4. There, that is the evidence of God existing, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
5. Wherefore God exists, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

dp