The Myth of Hell

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Jobeycool

Completely not the point...

Its not believing the bible or not... the bible says a lot of things are are just silly...

Just because its in the bible does not mean its the truth

There is way more opinions in this mysterious life,anyways.

Fun fact thats not so fun: I've asked countless people who are christians and gave them a scenario. Aliens came down to earth and proved they created us. The bible God is wrong. What do they do then? An alarming amount say they would kill themselves because life would be pointless. This led me to grow to understand that religious folk are not always intelligent beings and so I have to challenge them to see who is smart and who is not.

Like this, for example: You say the bible says so, thus it is fact. You are now telling other people what to believe because you were indoctrinated as a child to believe these to be true. You knew nothing else. Same goes for almost every other religion. It is natural human nature to be curious and we want to know the meaning to life and how it existed. Religion came out as a way to answer it so it was 100% set in stone and done with. The problem is, theres so many religions. Certainly you know Christianity was not the first. Every religion has a mindset that basically says what they believe in is right, and what somebody else believes in is wrong. The very fact you have a mindset that you must be right because you religious choice of books says so, you are actually wrong by default. Funny thing.

originally posted by: Soulece
Fun fact thats not so fun: I've asked countless people who are christians and gave them a scenario. Aliens came down to earth and proved they created us. The bible God is wrong. What do they do then? An alarming amount say they would kill themselves because life would be pointless. This led me to grow to understand that religious folk are not always intelligent beings and so I have to challenge them to see who is smart and who is not.

Like this, for example: You say the bible says so, thus it is fact. You are now telling other people what to believe because you were indoctrinated as a child to believe these to be true. You knew nothing else. Same goes for almost every other religion. It is natural human nature to be curious and we want to know the meaning to life and how it existed. Religion came out as a way to answer it so it was 100% set in stone and done with. The problem is, theres so many religions. Certainly you know Christianity was not the first. Every religion has a mindset that basically says what they believe in is right, and what somebody else believes in is wrong. The very fact you have a mindset that you must be right because you religious choice of books says so, you are actually wrong by default. Funny thing.

Ridiculous atheist trolling going on........ what is with you people.....You are now doing the very thing your against.

originally posted by: Jobeycool

originally posted by: Soulece
Fun fact thats not so fun: I've asked countless people who are christians and gave them a scenario. Aliens came down to earth and proved they created us. The bible God is wrong. What do they do then? An alarming amount say they would kill themselves because life would be pointless. This led me to grow to understand that religious folk are not always intelligent beings and so I have to challenge them to see who is smart and who is not.

Like this, for example: You say the bible says so, thus it is fact. You are now telling other people what to believe because you were indoctrinated as a child to believe these to be true. You knew nothing else. Same goes for almost every other religion. It is natural human nature to be curious and we want to know the meaning to life and how it existed. Religion came out as a way to answer it so it was 100% set in stone and done with. The problem is, theres so many religions. Certainly you know Christianity was not the first. Every religion has a mindset that basically says what they believe in is right, and what somebody else believes in is wrong. The very fact you have a mindset that you must be right because you religious choice of books says so, you are actually wrong by default. Funny thing.

Ridiculous atheist trolling going on........ what is with you people.....You are now doing the very thing your against.

Its not trolling. Im actually 100% serious.
EDIT: Here's the mind blowing part also, im not atheist.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

"Hell" is a translation into an English word based on Hebrew and Greek words that all have different meanings. In Hebrew, the word that was originally used is "sheol", which literally means the "unseen place". In Greek, it is translated from the words "Gehenna" and "Tartarus". Gehenna is a literal place that still exists today, but was the garbage dump during the times of Christ (where the "worm dieth not" and the "fires are unquenched"). Tartarus is, based on Christian history, a place reserved for the devil. None of those definitions imply a place of eternal torture.

Plus, there is scripture that can undo the idea of hell:

"I' if I be lifted up, will draw (Greek: helkyo, which literally means "to drag") ALL men unto me". Your choice has nothing to do with it. Jesus was lifted up, and He did indeed draw all people unto Himself.

"In Adam, ALL die; but in Christ, ALL will be made alive".

...and so it goes. The majority of scripture denies the existence of an eternal torture chamber.

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: CreationBro
a reply to: Ursushorribilis

Im fairly certain a sort of tailored "Hell" exists.

On that note, I've personally come to believe any visions of heaven or hell come from the flash of '___' that goes through your brain when you die. If you feel at piece and lack regrets or a guilty conscious you'll have a heavenly end of life trip if not your own brain will torture you.

Many of these NDE's come back with irrefutable proof and/or knowledge that they could have NEVER gotten unless they were in fact dead.

I know of several reports by patients in my practice, and I have spoken to neurosurgeons who have had patients with experiences that can be confirmed. Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc.

Near-Death Experiences

George Ritchie's is one of the best examples I have read about:

Ritchie's NDE is in a class of its own. You will find his experience to be one of the most profound NDEs ever documented. His NDE is also one of the most important cases of "NDE veridical perception" which are NDE out-of-body observations later verified by third-parties. During his NDE, Ritchie traveled out of his body for a distance of thousands of miles where he observed detailed events later verified to be true.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

Here are three others:

Colton Burpo's case for example, he died and met his own unborn sister that he didn't even knew EXISTED. George Rodonaia and Betty Malz are two other examples.

Colton, still 4 years old, told his mother “you had a baby die in your tummy didn’t you”, which completely shocked them both because they had never told him about their miscarriage. They asked him how he knew and he said that he met his sister in Heaven and she told him what happened." When Colton Burpo was four years he was having surgery in the hospital for a burst appendix. While he was in surgery he apparently had some sort of out of body experience...

Link 1 //// Link 2

George Rodonaia was assassinated by the KGB and spent three days in a morgue freezer:

"Dr. Rodonaia was killed by the KGB, pronounced dead, taken to the morgue for three days and returned to life during his own autopsy. Dr. Rodonaia was a psychiatric researcher who worked for the KGB and later became a dissident. He was a scientist trained in historical materialism and did not believe in God."

"George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. LINK

"I had to die to learn how to live. I died for 28 minutes, and it was during this death experience that I learned how to live. There is life after death and it is not a place where spirits float around bored being nice. It is a real place."

Death is like getting on a roller coaster (Video)
Related videos

Annabelle described seeing her great-grandmother, who she said looked much younger in Heaven, and also described a purported encounter with Jesus. Beam said that the key moment that convinced her that Annabelle was telling the truth came when she said that she saw a little girl in Heaven who God told her was her sister.

“I had had two miscarriages, and one of them had been the creation of life,” Beam told The Blaze, noting that the other pregnancy resulted in a blighted ovum, a situation in which a fertilized egg doesn’t develop. She once told her daughters that she had two miscarriages, but did not go into detail about the blighted ovum.

“When Anna was telling me about [heaven], she said, ‘I saw a little girl in Heaven, mommy, and she looked just like you … and [she] said, ‘I know that face and I asked God ‘who is that little girl’ and He said, ‘Anna, that’s your sister’ and that did it for me,’” Beam said. ”I just remember thinking there’s no way for her to have known.”

Beam said that she remembered thinking at the time that, if Annabelle were lying, she would have said that she saw two children in Heaven but, instead, she said she only saw one. Considering that only one of the pregnancies progressed, she was floored. “I thought at that moment, ‘This is real, this happened,’” Beam said. After the incident with the tree, Annabelle’s illnesses cleared up and she went from taking 10 medications per day to taking none, according to her mother. “Her life is different and everybody sees it,” she said.

whygodreallyexists.com...

Swallowed by a Tree and Fighting to Survive
Interview with Christy and Annabel Beam
Christy and Annabel Beam: Miracles From Heaven

a reply to: Murgatroid

NDE's could also be explained by the fact that we only know what we know, and we dont know what we dont know. Meaning, what we see is what it is, for example, jesus, or heaven and hell in nde's because its the only information in our heads. Our minds are like computers where it can only take files from a part that has files in it. If you do not have the file, you dont get access to the information. Take dreams for example. You can die in a dream but not actually die. You just remember waking up because you have yet to experience death.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

Christianity's vision of hell is similar to the eastern vision of karma. On both your actions in life determine whether your reward will be a good one, or a really bad reward.

These concepts are also similar to "cause and effect". For every cause there is an effect. For every action there is a reaction. For every deed there is a reward.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Ursushorribilis

Christianity's vision of hell is similar to the eastern vision of karma. On both your actions in life determine whether your reward will be a good one, or a really bad reward.

These concepts are also similar to "cause and effect". For every cause there is an effect. For every action there is a reaction. For every deed there is a reward.

I can buy into that a little. Hell and Heaven simply based off your actions rather than if you believe in Christ and Christianity or not.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Soulece

EDIT: In fact, I present this challenge to anyone who says they are an intelligent religious person. Either you cannot explain it, accept the ideals may be wrong, or you find a way to send a good person to hell, in which is being anti christian. It's an arrogant win-win for me in this scenario. This is something I love presenting to people who believe they know the answers because of the bible saying so.

You know that there are other religions in the world that have a "Heaven" yet don't worship Jesus, right? In other words, your "arrogant win-win for me" scenario fails when applied to virtually any religion that isn't Christianity.

Well my question is for all these people in this thread saying if you dont believe in Christ you go to hell. So no, it does not fail. I'm well aware there are other religions in the world.

Well in reality you go to hell (separation from God) because of the law. Belief in Christ frees you from the law.

So a good person can go to hell. That is not God. Thats an asshole with pride issues. Hey, that sort of sounds like somebody else...

No one is good. What is your scale? I assume you mean good according to your scale. Your scale changes from time to time.

There are absolutes, God is an absolute. I think maybe you have issues with absolutes. Maybe you should rephrase your comment to something like 'so anyone can go to hell regardless of their behavior'.

I would say yes because we all came from Adam, and Adam sinned and we all sin, we sin mostly in changing the scales to try and wiggle out of the law.

Where are the good people you speak of? What are the 'good' things they do? It's all relative to your personal ideas of what 'good' is. That is not an absolute, that is relative mumbo jumbo.

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Soulece

EDIT: In fact, I present this challenge to anyone who says they are an intelligent religious person. Either you cannot explain it, accept the ideals may be wrong, or you find a way to send a good person to hell, in which is being anti christian. It's an arrogant win-win for me in this scenario. This is something I love presenting to people who believe they know the answers because of the bible saying so.

You know that there are other religions in the world that have a "Heaven" yet don't worship Jesus, right? In other words, your "arrogant win-win for me" scenario fails when applied to virtually any religion that isn't Christianity.

Well my question is for all these people in this thread saying if you dont believe in Christ you go to hell. So no, it does not fail. I'm well aware there are other religions in the world.

Well in reality you go to hell (separation from God) because of the law. Belief in Christ frees you from the law.

So a good person can go to hell. That is not God. Thats an asshole with pride issues. Hey, that sort of sounds like somebody else...

No one is good. What is your scale? I assume you mean good according to your scale. Your scale changes from time to time.

There are absolutes, God is an absolute. I think maybe you have issues with absolutes. Maybe you should rephrase your comment to something like 'so anyone can go to hell regardless of their behavior'.

I would say yes because we all came from Adam, and Adam sinned and we all sin, we sin mostly in changing the scales to try and wiggle out of the law.

Where are the good people you speak of? What are the 'good' things they do? It's all relative to your personal ideas of what 'good' is. That is not an absolute, that is relative mumbo jumbo.

Spicy reply. First, nobody is good? Thats a very different approach to the term good. Good being positive. Surely there's good. If you're starving and I hand you a piece of bread, that's good. That's not evil because its not negative and its not neutral because an action was taken place that affected your life. Now that's absolute.
Second, sure I can vibe with God being an absolute. Much as we are. We exist. Why cant God, right?
You also just sent a good person to hell because they chose to think freely and not care about religion, rather than whats going on in the actual world. That's anti christian in my eyes. Are you christian? Because this gets muddy if you are.

The good people are the ones who do not put out negativity through their actions. They simply buffer others lives as well as their own.

If you want to talk intellectually, I'll await your reply.

a reply to: Soulece

Do your own research, I did and I was very surprised by what I found.

Here are some of the results I came up with:

That almost single-handedly shoots down the skeptical argument that near-death experiences are due to pre-existing beliefs or cultural influences. We’re not seeing a shred of evidence that corroborates that at all. In fact, that finding is actually corroborated with another major scholarly researcher who actually reviewed over 30 years of near-death experience research and came up with the same conclusion.

Materialist explanations of NDEs fail to explain the phenomenon

Atheist Physician - Dr Donald Whitaker

Ian McCormack - Atheist - Dead on Morgue Slab

ATHEIST PROFESSOR IN HELL - Howard Storm

Ronald Reagan - An atheist saw Hell

"Dr. Rodonaia (an atheist) was a vocal Soviet dissident killed by the KGB, pronounced dead, taken to a freezer vault in the morgue for three days and returned to life during his own autopsy. He was a scientist trained in historical materialism and did not believe in God." Of all the cases I have investigated in my 26 years of work in the field, his is the most dramatic, the longest, the most evidential, and the most soul-stirring.

"George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist.

LINK

a reply to: Soulece

There is decent and there is logical. For instance a logical person would offer a starving person some food or money because they realize they could also be in that situation, and would be grateful for a helping hand.

Your ideas of good are all relative. I was speaking of absolutes, God is an absolute. Even the most generous person from your definition is at some time going to be a little greedy for self preservation. That is against their own relative scale of 'goodness'.

The point of the law is that no one can keep it, because God is Holy and we are not. God is not good most of the time, God is an absolute good, a Holy good. We cannot in our own effort achieve this state because for starters we are born into a helpless situation.

This is the entire Gospel, we were helpless in our condition, so God intervened for us.

a reply to: ausername


Valhala would suck for pacifists, Elysium would suck for vegetarians, and the Western Lands would suck for everyone who wasn't well mumified.

How many can you reasonably hedge?

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism
a reply to: Soulece

There is decent and there is logical. For instance a logical person would offer a starving person some food or money because they realize they could also be in that situation, and would be grateful for a helping hand.

Your ideas of good are all relative. I was speaking of absolutes, God is an absolute. Even the most generous person from your definition is at some time going to be a little greedy for self preservation. That is against their own relative scale of 'goodness'.

The point of the law is that no one can keep it, because God is Holy and we are not. God is not good most of the time, God is an absolute good, a Holy good. We cannot in our own effort achieve this state because for starters we are born into a helpless situation.

This is the entire Gospel, we were helpless in our condition, so God intervened for us.

That logical person did good. So you cant say there is no such thing as good. Because if that were to be true, a logical person could use that aginst them and say God is not good, then. That kind of easy. You say God is neutral, I'm guessing.
Your absolute word is just 1 word. Theres more than just 1 word to describe anything. Which, I've never met God, so I cant say for certain whether he/she/it is good. But I'm running with the ideology that you present.
Its also presumptuous that a person will no matter what at some point be greedy. I'm 100% certain there are people that have lived on this planet that was pure hearted and good until the day they died.

Now I have to give you the challenge question: If somebody lived their entire life of helping others and was good, but decided to be an atheist, do they go to hell? If so, there is no logic there. Thats just a forced doctrine and sounds prideful. Kind of like satan. The ultimate deciever. I've toyed with the idea that the God in the bible could be satan. Since you all worship him. Everything is a theory. The moment you say a doctrine is fact because you simply believe it to be true, is where ya lose the game. Are the other religions wrong? I love questioning ideologies. I questioned my own, thats how I got to where I am today. For the record, not an atheist. And if you're one of those crazy kind of christians, no, I'm not a satanist.

originally posted by: Soulece

I can buy into that a little. Hell and Heaven simply based off your actions rather than if you believe in Christ and Christianity or not.

Beliefs and thoughts are energy. In fact everything, including matter is energy. So your thoughts themselves can actually lead you to a good reward, or to a really bad reward. That reward is mostly spiritual.

You know, it's quite ironic that a lot of people say they don't believe in God, but a lot of those people believe the Earth has a consciousness, yet these same people cannot fathom that God is the consciousness of the multiverse. God is everywhere, and a part of God is in everything. Consciousness itself is also energy, so God is eternal energy. Whether you want to believe or not in God it doesn't really matter because God does exist, just like you can't change the fact that everything is energy, whether you believe it or not.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism
a reply to: Soulece

There is decent and there is logical. For instance a logical person would offer a starving person some food or money because they realize they could also be in that situation, and would be grateful for a helping hand.

Your ideas of good are all relative. I was speaking of absolutes, God is an absolute. Even the most generous person from your definition is at some time going to be a little greedy for self preservation. That is against their own relative scale of 'goodness'.

The point of the law is that no one can keep it, because God is Holy and we are not. God is not good most of the time, God is an absolute good, a Holy good. We cannot in our own effort achieve this state because for starters we are born into a helpless situation.

This is the entire Gospel, we were helpless in our condition, so God intervened for us.

That logical person did good. So you cant say there is no such thing as good. Because if that were to be true, a logical person could use that aginst them and say God is not good, then. That kind of easy. You say God is neutral, I'm guessing.
Your absolute word is just 1 word. Theres more than just 1 word to describe anything. Which, I've never met God, so I cant say for certain whether he/she/it is good. But I'm running with the ideology that you present.
Its also presumptuous that a person will no matter what at some point be greedy. I'm 100% certain there are people that have lived on this planet that was pure hearted and good until the day they died.

Now I have to give you the challenge question: If somebody lived their entire life of helping others and was good, but decided to be an atheist, do they go to hell? If so, there is no logic there. Thats just a forced doctrine and sounds prideful. Kind of like satan. The ultimate deciever. I've toyed with the idea that the God in the bible could be satan. Since you all worship him. Everything is a theory. The moment you say a doctrine is fact because you simply believe it to be true, is where ya lose the game. Are the other religions wrong? I love questioning ideologies. I questioned my own, thats how I got to where I am today. For the record, not an atheist. And if you're one of those crazy kind of christians, no, I'm not a satanist.

I see you are a near absolute relativist. I cannot say an absolute relativist because in your world there are no absolutes.

But yes, the Bible teaches us that we all came from Adam, Adam sinned and so we all have sinned. In some way, shape or form even a little white lie or a feeling of covetousness like I want what that person has an unyielding faith in something they cannot see, touch or feel.

You sin. I sin. We all sin. That is the point of the Bible. As we all came from Adam and are helpless in our sin, God chose to redeem those who would believe by becoming a man and offering His life on a cross as a substitution for death for us.

That is the Gospel.

I'm sorry you have issues with that.

a reply to: Soulece

God does not 'send' people to hell.

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

He will not force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

I wrote a post on page 5 that I believe answers your challenge question...

originally posted by: Murgatroid
a reply to: Soulece

God does not 'send' people to hell.

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

He will not force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

I wrote a post on page 5 that I believe answers your challenge question...

Choice as in if they accept Jesus, right? Well if that's what you meant, thats going full circle with what I've been discussing above. Did I misunderstand this?

a reply to: SkeptiSchism

More paulianity... Lovely

Jesus didn't even mention adam...

And considering christians believe he is god... That says a lot