The Myth of Hell

a reply to: Seede

The Jewish Timeline Encyclopedia records his prophecies beginning in 594 BCE and in the 65th and 66th chapters of Isaiah he agrees with the book of Revelation.

Pretty sure thats from mark...which is much earlier then revelation

regardless that imagery is allegorical... the writers could have meant anything

originally posted by: Soulece
I'm glad hell doesn't exist or else I'd have a very bad time when I die.

The risk of the Lake of Fire is still in operation.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: Soulece
I'm glad hell doesn't exist or else I'd have a very bad time when I die.

The risk of the Lake of Fire is still in operation.

I dont see any evidence why it would be.
Words are words. Fools believe in only words.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: Soulece
I'm glad hell doesn't exist or else I'd have a very bad time when I die.

The risk of the Lake of Fire is still in operation.

Yes, and the risk of boiling in the eternal pot of bowties for rejecting the Flying Spaghetti Monster is still in operation as well.

I am an ordained minister, non denominational. I am also an engineer by trade. I was raised in a christian home. I have married dozens of gay couples. Love, is love. I am in no position to judge anyone else, I try to follow one simple verse. Mathew 7:1.

As of this morning, there are well over 4300 different religions that exist on this third rock from the sun. Most of these, tell you that if you don't follow them, to hell you go.

As an engineer, I see that there are only a couple of possibilities.

1. One of them is correct.

2. All of them are wrong.

Monty, I'll take door number 2.

Choose wisely my friends.

Fred..

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
I am an ordained minister, non denominational. I am also an engineer by trade. I was raised in a christian home. I have married dozens of gay couples. Love, is love. I am in no position to judge anyone else, I try to follow one simple verse. Mathew 7:1.

As of this morning, there are well over 4300 different religions that exist on this third rock from the sun. Most of these, tell you that if you don't follow them, to hell you go.

As an engineer, I see that there are only a couple of possibilities.

1. One of them is correct.

2. All of them are wrong.

Monty, I'll take door number 2.

Choose wisely my friends.

Fred..

Most religions tell of a place you go when you die.
Very few depict hell as a place of eternal punishment.

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
I am an ordained minister, non denominational. I am also an engineer by trade. I was raised in a christian home. I have married dozens of gay couples. Love, is love. I am in no position to judge anyone else, I try to follow one simple verse. Mathew 7:1.

As of this morning, there are well over 4300 different religions that exist on this third rock from the sun. Most of these, tell you that if you don't follow them, to hell you go.

As an engineer, I see that there are only a couple of possibilities.

1. One of them is correct.

2. All of them are wrong.

Monty, I'll take door number 2.

Choose wisely my friends.

Fred..

Most religions tell of a place you go when you die.
Very few depict hell as a place of eternal punishment.

Does more than one?

Your honor, I rest my case.

Fred..

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
I am an ordained minister, non denominational. I am also an engineer by trade. I was raised in a christian home. I have married dozens of gay couples. Love, is love. I am in no position to judge anyone else, I try to follow one simple verse. Mathew 7:1.

As of this morning, there are well over 4300 different religions that exist on this third rock from the sun. Most of these, tell you that if you don't follow them, to hell you go.

As an engineer, I see that there are only a couple of possibilities.

1. One of them is correct.

2. All of them are wrong.

Monty, I'll take door number 2.

Choose wisely my friends.

Fred..

I like the way you think. This is my problem when people say their religion is right and whatever you believe is wrong. This is my #1 issue with christians. They dont have the capacity to accept how they could be wrong because there's such a vast amount of religions out there. And theirs surely wasn't the first nor last. Acceptance you could be wrong is the path to being right.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960 I am an ordained minister, non denominational. I am also an engineer by trade. I was raised in a christian home. I have married dozens of gay couples. Love, is love. I am in no position to judge anyone else, I try to follow one simple verse. Mathew 7:1.

Well Mr. fredrodgers1960, you are part of the problem. Don't know where you bought your license to mock Jesus and really I don't care where you bought that license. Regardless of that purchase you are not of the teachings of the NT Jesus and actually have no connection to the teachings of His Apostles.

Rom 1:22-28
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

You are shown the water but no one can make you drink of it. Your license means nothing to The Most High EL or to me.

a reply to: fredrodgers1960
Simple fact is. Even if your religious, eternal hell fire is not supported by religious texts.

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
As an engineer, I see that there are only a couple of possibilities.

1. One of them is correct.

2. All of them are wrong.

Monty, I'll take door number 2.

Choose wisely my friends.

Fred..

You seemed to have chosen the easy way rather than trying to figure out who got it right.

Matthew 7:13,14 (between brackets is mine)

13 “Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it [the easy way]; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.[the hard way]

Proverbs 14:12

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,

But in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 30:12

12 There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes

But has not been cleansed from its filth.* [Lit., “excrement.”]

Colossians 3:5,6 (Study Bible)

5 Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality,* uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion, hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming.

*: From the Greek por·neiʹa, a general term for all unlawful sexual intercourse. It includes adultery, prostitution, sexual relations between unmarried individuals, homosexuality, and bestiality. It is used figuratively in Revelation with regard to a religious prostitute called “Babylon the Great” to describe her consorting with the rulers of this world for power and material gain. (Rev 14:8; 17:2; 18:3; Mt 5:32; Ac 15:29; Ga 5:19)​—See PROSTITUTE.

Since the subject came up in this thread recently:

Lake of Fire: Insight, Volume 2

This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”​—Re 20:14; 21:8.

The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 19:20; 20:14) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.​—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.

Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.​—Re 20:15.

While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.​—Ec 9:5.

In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (baʹsa·nos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., ba·sa·ni·smouʹ].” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.​—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.

Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., ba·sa·niʹzo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word ba·sa·ni·stesʹ is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.​—See GEHENNA; TORMENT.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (Study Bible)

5 For the living know* [Or “are conscious.”] that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.

What Did Jesus Teach About Hell?

...
...
WHAT IS “THE LAKE OF FIRE”?

Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil will be cast into “the lake of fire” and “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (King James Version) If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will “destroy him.” (Hebrews 2:14, KJ) The symbolic fiery lake represents “the second death.” (Revelation 21:8) This is not the death first mentioned in the Bible​—death because of Adam’s sin—​death from which one may be released by a resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) Because the Bible does not say that “the lake of fire” would release those in it, “the second death” must mean another kind of death, an irreversible one.
...

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

In Plato’s Cratylus Socrates says this about “demons”:

“And therefore I have the most entire conviction that he (Hesiod) called them demons, because they were daemones (knowing or wise), and in our older Attic dialect the word itself occurs.”

If “demons” were really the knowing or wise, then Christ’s efforts to drive them out can be viewed as a form of censorship. Suppose the Bible really is allegory and “Hell” is a metaphor for the underworld of hidden knowledge. When Adam and Eve first learned of “good” and “evil” their first response was to cover their nakedness and hide. Could “evil” really represent the truth about religion?

How might a person gain “eternal life” in the real world? The closest we have to eternal life is to have our actions preserved in the literal words of history books, but suppose history could also be preserved under the literal words? What sort of torment would a history suffer as it was turned into allegory and thrust into the underworld? What if you had the key to this allegory and could correctly interpret it? Could accurate interpretation be a way to “raise the dead”? Is the “salvation” offered by Christ the salvation of the lie?

Those are the only two possible outcomes when you break all of this down to brass tacks.

No debate needed or required. Everything past that is personal interpretation of specific verses of any one of 4300 various writings, any of which are most likely not the actual truth, because, I seriously doubt that God works on a lottery system, choose wrong, and down ya go.

A real true God who loves us all, would have intervened millennia ago to steer the ship right.

So, either we all perish if we chose wrong, OR none of it is actually real and all of religion was meant as a way of pressuring people into giving to this or that church, to give to them, because if ya don't, burn ya do!!

Back at the turn of the century, these were called "Snake Oil Salesmen" sexist reference left in place due to the times indicated.

Period.

Fred..

originally posted by: Akragon


Eternal torture and hellfire is strictly NT.... Judaism does not believe in such things

Where does the NT teach eternal hell fire for humanity?

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Logically it just doesn't make sense.

1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.


What do you think?

I think you will have to answer for your heresy someday.

Just kidding, doesn't exist if ya don't believe, right?

Hell is an absence of God. Not really fire and brimstone.

Good luck!

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Akragon


Eternal torture and hellfire is strictly NT.... Judaism does not believe in such things

Where does the NT teach eternal hell fire for humanity?

little bit of Paul...

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


and a bit of parable

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;



then theres this...

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah, all that too.

I been using a maple rub for the last 10yrs.

I think of hell is simply the separation from God. In life, it is certain death. In death, it is certain, eternal dying. IMO.

originally posted by: Akragon

little bit of Paul...

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I do not read Hell. Paul mentioned everlasting destruction,which could also meant cease to exist.

originally posted by: Akragon
and a bit of parable

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jesus was speaking in parables?

It's a free ticket to interpret anything.

Without Jesus to properly clarify the meaning, nothing is definite.

originally posted by: Akragon
then theres this...

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 for his 12 apostles because they are arguing who among them were the best. None of that could be applied to us, because

1. We are not Jesus chosen 12 apostles, AND
2. We are not competiting to be Jesus's best apostles.

Did Jesus acknowledged Hell?

It's more likely Mark just copied Isaiah 66:24 word by word rather than Jesus own words.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Akragon


Eternal torture and hellfire is strictly NT.... Judaism does not believe in such things

Where does the NT teach eternal hell fire for humanity?

little bit of Paul...

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


and a bit of parable

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;



then theres this...

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

Ok so he'll is eternal, I was asking about the punishment for humanity in hell
I am Not denying hell is eternal, I am asking if the punishment for humanity is eternal
The destruction is eternal, destruction, destroyed forever, no more

Where is hell eternal punishment for humanity in the bible?

Did Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life ( I assume you don't believe in A & E), evidently not so they are not eternal? I don't know what you believe or why. I don't know why you accept hell at all or why you believe Christians think it's eternal

Make up your own mind, just don't follow the teachings of the Catholic Church and assume it's true and the only theology out there, is all.
There is little biblical evidence for eternal hell for humanity
Eternal destruction and separation from God, yes

You can work out what you want