What would the world be like without religion?

Originally posted by dbrandt
God says no this is not the time for Susie to die. Did God interfere with Roberts free will. Absoltutely not. No, he had a choice, save her or not. He has free will to choose what to do or not to do.

You just contradicted yourself dbrandt. If god decided little susie wasnt going to die and if robert really decided( by his free will) that he didnt feel like saving little susie...well that makes God a LIAR doenst it? Poor Robert. He is just a programmed pawn in this game of God.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Would you explain your reasoning behind the conclusion you made MysticofRadiance?

i think alot of the morality on earth has grown out of the spiritual or been brought forth from the spiritual, though the questioning of the various religions is valid also, as they have there faults and do not seem to represent absolute truth.

for one without the spiritual guidance this planet has endured it would of been alot worse as a result, the religous guidance has been one of the few things keeping this planet together, at least in a spiritual way.

if the earth had trurned its back on spiritual values, it would of become a much colder ruthless place then it has.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
[You just contradicted yourself dbrandt. If god decided little susie wasnt going to die and if robert really decided( by his free will) that he didnt feel like saving little susie...well that makes God a LIAR doenst it? Poor Robert. He is just a programmed pawn in this game of God.

You'll have to explain your point more cause I don't know what your saying.

Ok lets do what we call in mathematics a "proof by contradiction"
Statements made by Dbrandt: Robert has free will

God decides Little susie should outlive her childhood. She's not going to die young.
He goes back and creates Robert for the purpose of saving little susie at the right moment.

Proof:
Robert has two choices: To save the child or not to save the child. Little susie can be saved with a 50% probability. (Remember we assumed Robert has free will) There's an equal probability that Robert will decide not to save the child. Or is it?
Robert decides not to save this child cuz he's tired of saving people that thank only god. Little susie dies in the accident.
BUT God has already decided that Robert will SAVE little susie. That means Robert had no choice from the begining.
So that leaves us with two possibilities: Either God is wrong...or Robert indeed had free will
Now since God CANT be wrong. We can conclude that Robert DID NOT have free will.

Dbrandt,

You have missed the point completely. This isn't about being created with the ability to choose. I know I have the ability to choose. Maybe life was created by a god to give this to me. However, that is not adressing the major issue I have with your logic.

A christian does not only believe he has free will. That christian also believes in Gods PLAN. He believes in an all knowing god as well. If god already knows what you are to do tomorrow, then you have no choice.

If god steps in and helps out anyone for anyreason, then that also elimates choice.

So, your explanation can be correct as you explained earlier about all those people and your choices. It can be correct only if you believe that God can play no physical roles, and god can not know everything. If you cant agree to that last statement, then what you said makes no sense. So tell me......does God get involved?

God does know what will happen tommorrow, but we don't. thats why we live each day not knowing what will happen, and by our will
we choose what will happen, but its already known to God.

If God helps someone than you do not know the cirumstance. I bet for sure seapeople if your dearest person in your life was in a car wreck and they
somehow miraculously escaped you would be absolutely thankful right?


Unless you have no heart at all.


See, God knows our thoughts and our prayers, and sometimes he helps people out because of others prayers or because he loves us. If you had a child seapeople faling from a bridge and he was hanging by a peice of bar, and you
were the only one who could help him, would you?


How can you say differently when God does this for us who he loves more than we could ever imagine?


Its not like God makes us do anything, he may help us in terms of miracles but that in no way makes us do anything, it only provides hope for us that he exist.





If God didn't care than he would be the God you described, not getting involved in our lives which is not a God I would want to exist personally, but thankfully hes like a heavenly father, just like your an earthly father.




peace.

[edit on 19-2-2005 by Truth]

Truth,

That logic makes no sense. Give me a rational explanation of how that can work?

Lets take me for instance. If I know what you will eat tomorrow without a shadow of a doubt, or any detail at all. Tomorrow, when that moment comes where you have to decide what to eat, can you really have a choice if in the end its already known?

NO!!! You couldn't possibly pick any other food aside from he one I knew ahead of time that you would. If you did pick another one, then I actually wouldn't have known...and I couldn't opossibly be all knowing.

Choice elimates an all knowing god. Your choices have yet to be made. If someone already knows, then they have already been made. If you can rationalize around this with anything that makes sense, please try. Otherwise, knowing that you are not stupid, and that you must see what I am saying, that would make you a liar like the rest. A hypocritical liar pushing a false agenda. Don't fall into this category. Give me a rational explanation.

By the way, when you are at your bed side tonight advising god as to what he should do tomorrow...eh emmm, sorry. I mean praying to god, think real hard as to why you are asking him anything. He already knows everything right? So he knows what you are going to ask him and why. He knows what you will tell him to do and why....hes all knowing. Why bother wasting his precious time with your petty problems????

Your looking for an argument, and nothing I say will ever getyou to be sincere because its like a debate contest with you, this I know.



1. you did not answer some of my questions about the car wreck and kids.



2. God knows what I will eat, that does not mean that I know. A kid can understand this. If you could see the future and peoples descisions without making them decide anyting than how is that dictating? its insane.



Time does not exst seapeople, the rotation of the earth does and the age f the earth does, but time outside of our realm does not exist so God is and always was present and he knows everything.



if he dictated then he would come to us in a vision and tell us what to eat tommorrow, but he only knows what will will decide to eat the next day baised on our action we (have not made yet).


Knowing and dictating are two different things. If you know a robber is going to break into your houe does that mean that you cased him to do so? absolutely not.


again, this is all about a debate im not getting into brother.




peace.

Originally posted by Seapeople
A christian does not only believe he has free will. That christian also believes in Gods PLAN. He believes in an all knowing god as well. If god already knows what you are to do tomorrow, then you have no choice.

I think, this answer aplies to Isis' question also.

God is omniscient, I know I already stated that. It's because He's omniscient that He can weave the choices man makes into the events of time.

You asked if God gets involved with man. Yes God either causes or allows everything. Does God cause a tornado, no, but He allows them. Has he ever stopped a tornado from forming, my guess would be yes in response to the prayers of His people. Does He cause cancer, no, but He allows it to enter a persons life. Has He ever stopped cancer from forming. Same answer yes in response to prayers.


There is some instances in the Bible where God says He's going to come against a nation by bringing an invasion of another nation. Since He's omniscient He knows the plans of man and uses what man is going to do for His purposes. A story in the Bible tells of the disciples asking Jesus why a man was born blind. He tells them it was so that the man could be healed by Christ at that moment as evidence that He was God. So since God creates life it appears that God allows something like blindness to be used for His purposes. So inessence since God is also omnipotent, that means He could have prevented that man from being born blind, but didn't He choose instead to use it as part of His plan for mankind.

There is a christian pastor named David Jeremiah who experienced cancer a few years back. He was hospitalized and treated and did survive. But I've heard him speak on his battle with it. He says at points he couldn't understand why he got cancer. He had trouble dealing with the fact that he was a christian and got cancer. He says it was like "OK God I'm yours so why this". Someone gave him a card with a poem. One of the lines in the poem was "This thing is from me" and the poem didn't necessarily have to do with cancer, just trials that people have enter there life. Just because he got cancer, did that mean things were out of control. No, When someone becomes a christian life isn't from that moment forward troublefree. No where in the Bible does it say that. The point of the poem was this. Everything and I mean everything goes through God first, so that meant this cancer that he got God knew about and let enter his body and life. And God plainly says I could have prevented it but I didn't. I'm going to let it come into your life and as you deal with it I'm going to show you things that you never would have known about, unless this trial had come.


I could probably write alot but don't want to make this too long. I'm trying to think of an example of something. I've heard of these stories before. Someone is scheduled to board a plane and that plane crashes and everyone is killed. But the person who was scheduled to be on it had "car trouble" and didn't arrive in time. Did God intervene in that life. I would say absolutely yes. Did God interfere with that person's free will. You'll probably say yes, I say no, He merely changed the circumstances of that person's day.

Things can go the other way to and God can allow cancer to end someone's life. Why He cures some and allows others to die to cancer, I can't answer.

But here's some assurance for the christian. The God I believe in is in charge of all aspects of my life. Anything good or bad goes through Him first, so if He allowed it He has a plan for it to conform me to be more like His Son.(I'm not saying I will ever be God but merely like Him) and I'm not saying I'm going to enjoy it.

But God will not overrule a person's choice of whether or not to accept Christ. God may "bring" cancer into a person's life to bring that person to the end of himself in the hope that this person will accept Christ. If that person still refuses Christ God will not overule that person on that decision.

Now you might say why bother letting someone get cancer if God already knew that that person wasn't going to accept Jesus. I think it's for us as humans. We don't know how we are going to actually react to a situation until we are faced with it. Let's say that person never did accept Christ and according to what the Bible teaches dies unsaved and faces God on judgement day. That person has his life to look back over and will see the good and bad God allowed into his life and they will know it was all for the question of whether they would come to God. He or she will never be able to say, "If only you had let this or that into my life, then THEN I would have come to Christ.

I hope I at least gave a partial answer to questions asked, I am trying.

You both are liars like the rest, and truth, I did answer your questions about the car accident.

It is people who climb into that wreck, not a god. It is people who made the mistakes to cause the wreck, not God. It only makes you more foolish and insecure when you make these types of statements. Continue along through life like this.

Continue to impede human progress. Continue to be ignorant. Continue to be a hypocrit and lie to yourself, and everyone you come into contact with every day.

You know whats ironic about this situation. You are so caught up in lying to yourselves, that even when it is pointed out, and you realize that you actually are, you have to much pride to admit it, or back down. So you lie more to contiue your ignorance.

Hey,
Nice post Isis, for one, i most definately believe their would be LESS WAR in the world. We would actually be more peacefull i believe. But hey you never know. Perhaps a world with philosophers and morals, yet no religion would be peaceful.
By the way, i love your Galileo quote Isis, im about to respond to your u2u also!
best wishes,
Dani

[edit on 20-2-2005 by Vesuvius 13]

This post has been done on another forum here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

what was the debating about free will about?.