It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Complete Proof Of Freemasonry Being Satanic?

page: 8
0
<< 5  6  7    9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 03:31 PM
link   
What's the deal with this book? I have an e-copy of it. Rebuttals.....




posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 03:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by Leveller

There's a risk when using the word "Paganism", that it's way too general to apply to any belief other than those that are recognised as being the major religions today. It seems that you and I have had a misunderstanding over the context in which it was used.


Most likely.


The word "pagan" stems from the Latin "paganus" which meant "country people".


So I wasn't too far off, then. Could've used that definition in my earlier post, hehe. But yeah, the modern negative connotation seems to stem from the Roman Catholic influence.


It was a word that was sometimes used by Romans in contempt for those outside the city walls because they were viewed as crude and uneducated.


Also, I'll add, their initial refusal of adopting the one 'masculine' God ideal, they were happy as can be loving nature.


It predates Christianity by centuries but is not known whether it would have been applied in a strictly religious sense. Possibly it would - "pagan" could mean anything viewed as "backward" by those who saw themselves as "modern" thinkers.


Interesting, but I don't it was religious in context until after the 4th century...


In later Latin, the word came to mean "civilian". As early Catholics saw themselves as "Soldiers of Christ", the word pagan was taken to interpret the opposite.

It was cetainly a word that was in effect before Christianity had spread throughout Europe, used by both Romans and Christians and would seem to have first been used in the area where Christianity was born - being applied to those country folk of Rome who clung to their old gods instead of embracing the new religion.


Exactly what I was saying! I hate semantics...



www.etymonline.com...

The main problem with the word today is that, apart from the non-Christian, non-Islamic, non-Judaic, etc. way it is applied, there really is no clear definition of what it actually means. It's way too general and one often has to guess the context in which it is used as I have above.


Interesting, I'll look into this...




Gathering from your later words, you seem to be referring to a resurrection of goddess worship and here I don't dispute the idea that the resurrection of this mode of religion may have been influenced by the spread of Catholicism in France, in the mid 4th century AD. But the context in which I see your use of the word "pagan" makes the addition of the word "resurrection" a necessity.


Pagan Resurrection? Resurrection of Pagan beliefs? I would like to lead a crusade against the Catholic erosion of latin context. Bring Pagan back to its original roots! It would be interesting to see what other english everyday words are tainted from early Catholic influence... But I digress.



Incidentally, the actual word "pagan" was used in a "Christian" sense by Tertullian (one of the early Church fathers) in the 3rd century AD. Again, he referred to himself as one of the "milites Christi" (soldiers of Christ) and it became natural to refer to non-Christian or non- Jewish as pagani, "civilians". In Histories 153 he refers to "soldiery demoralized by intercourse with the civilians (paganos)" - a reference to how pagans were affecting the morale of the early Christians.


Bastards I say.

Fantastic response, Leveller!


[edit on 15-2-2005 by thegreatimposter]



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 04:09 PM
link   
It was posted, and the thread ballooned (to about 120+ posts in 4 days?) as more and more Masons posted off-topic remarks. I believe it was called "Good Masons, please wake up"

Didn't stay on track for more than 3 posts, I'd say.

So safe to say those who want to know about its existence (and not DENY it) already know, and well, those who don't are going to come and post pictures of Barbie dolls, and My Little Ponies, and other children's toys until you stop mentioning it.

IMO, the book does enough to make you question whether Freemasonry's intentions are pure (ie. whether it is possible to join for reasons of social advancement, and business connections), but ALL have their mind made up on that topic already, and they'll say you are bitter because you were kicked out.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 04:25 PM
link   
OK, let's see how long we can keep this thread on track. What is the deal with the book?



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 05:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by freudling
OK, let's see how long we can keep this thread on track. What is the deal with the book?


Am I missing something? What book are you talking about? You said you have an e-copy, can you post a link to it or something?



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 05:24 PM
link   
Already discussed here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 06:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by Leveller

The Biblical prophecies have not been fulfilled. Even with your very dodgy interpretation of a few of them coming to pass, the major prophesies in Revelation have not occured. endtimes than current events of today. You have merely manipulated the word to suit you cause.



Leveller, speaking of prophecies I saw a while back on TV that they were looking for the walls of Jericho. You know the ones Joshua marched around 7 times singing praises to God and the walls came tumblng down. If I remember correctly this wall was pretty wide at the top and high. They have looked high and low for this thing and it should be pretty hard to hide something of this size and magnitude. Not that it couldn't be burried under the earth somewhere but far as I know they have still not found it.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 06:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by svcadet32

hold on a minute chief, i might be me but i always though that Jesus Christ was THE SON OF GOD?!!! but then agian that might just be me.

[edit on 15-2-2005 by svcadet32]


The fundamentalist , Born Again or Trinitarian Christian has this concept:

While the word Trinity does not occur there, the concept is clearly taught in the Bible. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity:

1) There is one God.

2) There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Bible also reconizes a plurality of persons in God. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not as explicit in the Old Testament as the New Testament, nonetheless, there are passages where members of the God-head are distinguished. At times they even speak to one another.
www.myfortress.org...

even in Christianity there are many hundreds of Faiths, each a little different from the other.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 07:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by TgSoe



Leveller, speaking of prophecies I saw a while back on TV that they were looking for the walls of Jericho. You know the ones Joshua marched around 7 times singing praises to God and the walls came tumblng down. If I remember correctly this wall was pretty wide at the top and high. They have looked high and low for this thing and it should be pretty hard to hide something of this size and magnitude. Not that it couldn't be burried under the earth somewhere but far as I know they have still not found it.


There have been excavations at Jericho and there have been discoveries that have been interpreted as a fallen city wall - although it's nowhere near as big as that depicted in the Bible. Biblical authors did seem to have a tendency to over-exagerrate.
It was very common for cities to be walled and this practice continued right up to the middle ages so there is no suprise if Jericho actually was walled or that it was eventually destroyed. It is quite possible that the city wall was destroyed during the Israelite seige, but doubtful that it fell merely to the blowing of trumpets and the shouts of the tribe. In all probability it fell to the military seige techniques of the day.
A lot of the Old Testament does seem to be based on historical occurence, and archeology does occasionally back it up, but there are usually a few changes to the Biblical account that make the stories told far less romantic.
Of course, when retold by the victors, it's a much mightier story if the overthrow of an enemy could be attributed to their god.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 07:28 PM
link   


The main problem with the word today is that, apart from the non-Christian, non-Islamic, non-Judaic, etc. way it is applied, there really is no clear definition of what it actually means. It's way too general and one often has to guess the context in which it is used as I have above.


I agree. many times it is not just how it is used but WHO is using it.
To many , Jack Chick comes to mind, it is ysed to mean any that do not
follow their exact precepts.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 12:08 AM
link   
Wow, I lost track of this thread and didn't even know what the first post was. Back to the issue, what is the response to the "Complete Proof of Masons Being Satanic"?



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 12:13 AM
link   
Can any Mason fill me in if these words are in your belief? Jah, IA. It mentions it in the article and I was just wondering if it is in one of your chants or rituals.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 12:43 AM
link   
All I can say is, WOW !! This guy is just a flamer. And you men have been patient and tolerant with him far beyond the pall.

Are you trying to insight a riot? It serves no good purpose to poisen the well first , if what you're trying to do is get people to drink from it. This kind of accusitory and inflammatory speech is self-defeating.

From what I've read for the short time I've been lurking in this forum, is that the men that claim to be Masons are fortright and honest in their posts regarding the questions about the Craft that are put to them. But to Impune and denegrate these men and their beliefs and practices flies in the face of the very freedoms we enjoy as Americans. I believe it can be helpful to practice some common decency when dealing with others with whom you may have a difference of opinion. But to stand in front of a man and outright condemn him without just cause is, although it be your belief that he may be misguided, is truely ignorant.

You obviously have not practiced or perfected the art of persuasion. To win converts or to guide people into your way of thinking requires insight into yourself and them. You are not convincing anyone here that you're concerned for their temporal or eternal well being by flaming them.

I should probably shut up now.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 12:54 AM
link   
I found the article and the author kind of disturbing. I thought the Masons were christian based? Maybe that is just me. Jah bul on, muhahahaha.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 03:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by IComeWithASword
I found the article and the author kind of disturbing. I thought the Masons


Its a word not a Religion, Freemasonry is a universal Brotherhood not a replcement for any religion in particular.

In Western society 95% of the Members would be Christians. In the Scandinavian Countries in particular as well as parts of France and Europe Freemasonry is a Christian based organisation . but Under the United grand lodge of England and most US and Canadian Grand Lodges it is completely non-sectarian.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by billmcelligott]



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 04:06 AM
link   
I have read many books that outline various nefarious secret Masonic plots. I give the Lodge the respect that demands one is innocent till proven guilty. In my studies I have seen the odd questionable move, but I was not there and maybe that was the only defense against some attack.
Roberto Calvi's death under Blackfriars Bridge comes to mind. On the upside, I see them quietly, humbly, and generously helping others. The Shriners are the most obvious example. They are universally known as true lifesavers, and they ask for nothing in return, nor do they seek out any recognition or public presence.
Satanic? Well then I think that the 'Lucifer' or 'serpent' of the OT may not be the foil afterall. have we been fooled



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 04:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Roberto Calvi's death under Blackfriars Bridge comes to mind.

You should be aware that there are many organisations around the world that claim to be masonic but do not hold up under scrutiny. There are Grand Lodges in Europe, notably in Italy, who do not suscribe to the same values and landmarks that regular freemasonry does.

Calvi is alleged to be involved with an Italian lodge called P2 - this lodge is irregular and not recognised by mainstream masonry in Italy, let alone the rest of the world.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 05:43 AM
link   
What about the text. Does anybody want to repsond to its claims?

What about these excerpts:

Eyewitness to a killing Participant in ritual says he had seen the accused use prank as part of initiation many times without incident by Samuel Bruchey 3/12/04 "The induction ceremony in the basement of the Masonic lodge on Monday in Patchogue began as it had hundreds of times before for decades. All the old props were in place. Bear traps. Rat traps. A replica guillotine. The wooden plank." ""Susan James said yesterday she didn't want any of the Masons to attend the wake that was held for her husband yesterday afternoon at Lucia & Orlando Funeral Home Inc. in Patchogue. She turned down their offer of a special Mason funeral for her husband and has asked that his lodge "brothers" stay away from the funeral scheduled for today." www.newsday.com...

A Ritual Gone Fatally Wrong Puts Light on Masonic Secrecy Patchogue, N.Y., 3/9/04 "The initiation rituals at the Masonic lodge here had been bathed in secrecy over the years...A new member of the Fellow Craft Club, a select group within the lodge, would sit in a chair while an older member stood 20 feet away and fired a handgun loaded with blanks. That ritual went terribly wrong inside Southside Masonic Lodge No. 493, in a basement littered with rat traps, tin cans, a 9-foot-tall guillotine, and a setup designed to mimic walking a plank. The shooter, a 76-year-old Mason, Albert Eid, was carrying two guns, a .22-caliber handgun with blanks in his left pocket, and a .32-caliber gun with live rounds in his right pocket. He reached into his right pants pocket, pulled out the wrong gun and shot William James, a 47-year-old fellow Mason, in the face, killing him, the authorities said." www.nytimes.com...

Man Killed During Initiation at Masonic Lodge 3/9/04 Patchogue, N.Y. ""We don't use pistols," Steve Mayo, who described himself as a senior deacon of the lodge, told reporters Tuesday. "This is not a Masonic ceremony where we bring pistols." However, Fitzpatrick said members told police the rite involving a gun goes back at least 70 years. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the�Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system." www.foxnews.com...



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 06:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by freudling
What about the text. Does anybody want to repsond to its claims?


I will leave it to US masons who I am sure will be able to respond much more fully to this, but you might be interested in a summary from the United Grand Lodge of England website, dated March 2004

New York Shooting

There have been reports in the media of a shooting taking place during a ceremony at "South Side Lodge No. 493 in Suffolk County". The tragic event took place in Suffolk County in the State of New York and was not as reported. The Grand Master of the State of New York has issued a letter to all of his Lodges with the correct facts.

a. The tragic event took place not in a Lodge meeting but during a social event in the building in Patchogue, New York, where the Lodge meets.
b. The social club involved is not a Grand Lodge sanctioned Masonic organisation.
c. The Grand Lodge of the State of New York has only one approved ritual which must be used by all Lodges. Firearms do not, and never have, played any role in any Masonic ritual in New York State.

The Grand Lodge is cooperating fully with the investigating authorities. The Grand Master has spoken with the widow and a fund has been set up to assist her and her family.



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 07:48 AM
link   
The case of calvi was recently opened again:-
Murder inquiry begins 21 years after banker was discovered under bridge
By Nick Allen
01 October 2003

Police have begun a murder inquiry into the death of the Italian banker Roberto Calvi who was found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, central London in 1982.

Mr Calvi, the president of Banco Ambrosiano, had bricks and thousands of pounds in cash in his pockets. His death came shortly after the bank, which had close ties with the Mafia, the Vatican and the Italian freemasonry, collapsed with debts of £800m.

Calvi, known as "God's banker" because of his Vatican links, was initially believed to have killed himself, but the Italian authorities now intend to prosecute four people, including a Mafia boss, for murder. City of London Police said yesterday the case was being "actively investigated" using forensic techniques not available at the time of his death.
news.independent.co.uk...

Then
Detective Superintendent Trevor Smith, who recently returned from Italy, said: "We have been applying 21st Century forensic and investigative techniques to a 21-year-old crime - and we have been working closely with our Italian counterparts.

"As a result of these investigations, we have today arrested a woman, and have questioned her in relation to events surrounding Mr Calvi's murder in 1982."
news.bbc.co.uk...

No one metions Freemasonry , yet that does not stop sites like Freemasonry watch printing these reporst and still implying masonic involvement. It would seem the authorities are quite happy to arrest the Mafia , but somehow see unable to agree with the Anti masonic brigade that any blame rests with Freemasonry.

The we have the tragic shooting of a man in a group using a Masonic room. Hazing is condemned by every Grand lodge in the world, yet it is still possible for stupid people to conduct themselves like this. There can be no excuses made for what has happened, but in my opinion there can be no reason for the mangement not knowing that this sort of practice was going on. Can you shoot off guns without it being heard? If we are to believe the reports it was an established practice ? It should have been stopped long before this incident.

There is no room in Freemasonry for violence in any form whatsoever, it is the duty of every Freemason to make sure that this is an unbending rule. No excuses.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 5  6  7    9  10 >>

log in

join