How can you ask to have a good friendly discussion when you yourself have already made up your mind that there is something nefarious within Masonry? Don't try to say you haven't, because the very topic of your post tells me that you have.

I get such a kick out of self-righteous "Christians" who would tell you that their way is the ONLY way, and all that do not adhere to their dogmas are bound for eternal damnation... Fire and brimstone and all...

JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED YOURSELF.

Who is any man to tell any other man how he should worship or by what name to call his god? What makes you so right, Mr. Right-Wing-Fundamentalist?

(that is not directed at any individual here, just a general hypothetical question)

My personal beliefs are mine, but I do think that no matter what your religion, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever - the point of them all in the end is to be closer to God (whoever or whatever that might be to you), so at the end of the day, that makes us all the same doesn't it?

[edit on 2/11/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
How can you ask to have a good friendly discussion when you yourself have already made up your mind that there is something nefarious within Masonry? Don't try to say you haven't, because the very topic of your post tells me that you have.

edit

[edit on 11-2-2005 by notmindcontrolled]

Originally posted by The Axeman
I get such a kick out of self-righteous "Christians" who would tell you that their way is the ONLY way, and all that do not adhere to their dogmas are bound for eternal damnation... Fire and brimstone and all...

JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED YOURSELF.

Who is any man to tell any other man how he should worship or by what name to call his god? What makes you so right, Mr. Right-Wing-Fundamentalist?

(that is not directed at any individual here, just a general hypothetical question)

My personal beliefs are mine, but I do think that no matter what your religion, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever - the point of them all in the end is to be closer to God (whoever or whatever that might be to you), so at the end of the day, that makes us all the same doesn't it?

[edit on 2/11/05 by The Axeman]

Not really. I am a christian and want to know what god is the one true god(that's why i'm a christian). I don't value hundreds of billions of men throughout history who have came to their own conclusions about life. I value the facts and it seems that christianity is the only religion that is based on fact. I have a god to get close to, according to john 3:36, but according to that verse, those other religions are worshipping a false god. That is also one more reason that I see masonry as evil, because you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time, unless you are just very "dumb" and don't know what your doing.

Originally posted by The Axeman
I get such a kick out of self-righteous "Christians" who would tell you that their way is the ONLY way, and all that do not adhere to their dogmas are bound for eternal damnation... Fire and brimstone and all...

JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED YOURSELF.

Who is any man to tell any other man how he should worship or by what name to call his god? What makes you so right, Mr. Right-Wing-Fundamentalist?

(that is not directed at any individual here, just a general hypothetical question)

My personal beliefs are mine, but I do think that no matter what your religion, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever - the point of them all in the end is to be closer to God (whoever or whatever that might be to you), so at the end of the day, that makes us all the same doesn't it?

[edit on 2/11/05 by The Axeman]

Some people feel that, since their way is the right way, they need to SAVE others from damnation. What ever happened to 'live and let live'?

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
That is also one more reason that I see masonry as evil, because you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time, unless you are just very "dumb" and don't know what your doing.

Oh that's just brilliant. So you want a friendly conversation, yet you just called the vast majority of Masons here "dumb". Bravo, Mr. Warm Fuzzy.

Do you actually think that the One True God has a name? Are you saying that Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists (insert other religions here), are going to Hell because they don't quote John 3:16? Give me a break. Jesus said "There is no way to my Father but through Me." I'm curious, what does that mean to you? Break it down for me champ.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
I value the facts and it seems that christianity is the only religion that is based on fact.

Listen buddy, I'm as Christian as the next guy, but even I know that there is not so much FACT as much as there is FAITH in Christianity. I'd be curious to know what you consider facts that ours is the only religion.

those other religions are worshipping a false god. That is also one more reason that I see masonry as evil, because you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time, unless you are just very "dumb" and don't know what your doing.

You have NO IDEA who myself or any other masons worship, so save your preaching for someone who's dumb enough to listen to you. Let me ask you this: If you joined a fraternity, who would you worship? Would you still worship Jesus Christ, or do you think you could get suckered into worshipping a "false god"? There are many intelligent men in masonry, none are so dumb that they do not know who they pray to or worship at the end of the day.

I find it sad that your self-righteousness doesn't allow you to see past your own ignorance.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I find it sad that your self-righteousness doesn't allow you to see past your own ignorance.

That is an all too common characteristic of "Christians" nowadays.

{edit} I'm sorry. Some "Christians" nowadays. Most are good folks from what I've seen. I am constantly annoyed by the arrogance of those that will try to tell you that their "brand" is the only true Christianity. It really saddens me.

[edit on 2/11/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I find it sad that your self-righteousness doesn't allow you to see past your own ignorance.

That is an all too common characteristic of "Christians" nowadays.

{edit} I'm sorry. Some "Christians" nowadays. Most are good folks from what I've seen. I am constantly annoyed by the arrogance of those that will try to tell you that their "brand" is the only true Christianity. It really saddens me.

[edit on 2/11/05 by The Axeman]

I'm suspicious of anyone who is of a particular religion because of what he perceives to be FACT. Religion isn't religion if there's no FAITH involved, but I think many extreme Christians and Muslims have lost sight of that.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I'm suspicious of anyone who is of a particular religion because of what he perceives to be FACT. Religion isn't religion if there's no FAITH involved, but I think many extreme Christians and Muslims have lost sight of that.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
I don't value hundreds of billions of men throughout history who have came to their own conclusions about life. I value the facts and it seems that christianity is the only religion that is based on fact.

You know, if you had only said something like "I'm a Christian because I have faith in Christian teachings', I would have quietly tipped my hat to you, and moved on. But as not only a skeptic, but also a historical researcher, I have to call your hand on this card.

"Based upon facts"? A fact and a belief are two entirely different things; in reality, they are potential opposites. If you have some sort of fact that shows the superiority of your worldview over others, surely you will be kind enough to share it with the rest of us. After all, Christian philosophers in the west have been trying to prove the authenticity of Christian doctrine since the 5th century, and have had little luck. If you can do it now on ATS, I promise you'll go down in history as a great man.

Good masons I plead to you stop raping 8 year old boys! Wait, that's christians. I plead to you Good Masons, stop committing genocie on the Africans by telling them condoms are evil and then telling them to go have more sex, spreading aids. Wait, that's christians. I plead to you Good Masons to apologize for using your book to teach the slaves that they are suppose to be slaves! No, that's christianity too. Damn, what have they done that is so good? At least the Masons built the Washington Monument.

I value the facts and it seems that christianity is the only religion that is based on fact.I have a god to get close to, according to john 3:36, but according to that verse, those other religions are worshipping a false god. That is also one more reason that I see masonry as evil, because you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time, unless you are just very "dumb" and don't know what your doing.

Please provide these facts

I'm sorry. Some "Christians"

I think the word you are looking for is fundaMENTAList Christians.
I think you will find that version of the 1st degree amoung the ramblings of
Jack Chick and Co.

Damn, what have they done that is so good?

lets not forget the loving attentions paid to thousands of women just because they had knowledge of herbs, midwifery, healing, etcetra.etcetra.etcetra, and the loving attentions they paid to Native American children and families.


Hypostasis of the Arcons,

[ because of his] power and his ignorance [and his arrogance]
he said..., " It is I who am God; there is none [other apart from
me]." When he said this he sinned against [the Entirety]. And
a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power,
saying, " You are mistaken, Samael," which means " god of the blind"


On the Origin of the World
... he boasted continually, saying to (the angels)... I am God, no other
one exists except me." But When he said these things, he sinned
against all of the immortal ones... when Faithsaw the impiety of the chief ruler,
she was angry.... she said, "You err, Samael (blind god)." An enlightened,
immortal humanity exists before you.


Secret Book of John

in his madness ... he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me,"
for he is ignorant of ... the place from which he had come.... And when he saw
the creation which surrounds him and the multitudes of angels around him
which had come forth from him, he said to them, " I am a jelous God, and there
is no other God beside me." But by announcing this he indicatedto the angels that
another God does exist; for if there were no other one, of whom would he be
jealous?

All Masons (who posted here) have made it abundantly clear they know the correct interpretation of the Bible.

I'm not here to dispute that.

I get the feeling they won't share their interpretation, however.

Let me make myself clear. When I said "dumb", I should of said ignorant. It is not an insult to the strong minded. I am ignorant(dumb) in many things like Chinese history, Buddaism, trigonometry etc... I apoligize for the misuse. So you see, I think it is quite possible to be ignorant about one subject(christianity or freemasonry), and an expert in the other. There are alot of expert freemasons on this board. There are alot of expert christians in my church. These two peoples have totaly different viewpoints even though they might share the same thoughts. When I say I base my belief in christianity on fact, I mean historical fact that prooves that bible prophecy is real. In particular the end times prophecys found at the end of the gospels, and in revelation, the old testament prophisies that have been fullfilled, like the rebirth of Isreal in 1948, the rise of the King of the North, Jer 51 is almost certanily near, and a simple look at the past 150 years compaired to the rest of recorded human history is a good indication that we are in the end times. That is the fact, but some people don't want to know that we are in the end times, so god gave us a gift of being saved by grace through faith Ep 2:8-9. It seems to me that feemasonry is a universaly shared religion among religions that from the outside looking in has one world religion written all over it, and without the intention of trying to tell people(non-christians) about Christ. I can't see how someone is strong in their faith(christian), and adheres to the bible when it tells us not to practice with our enemy, then be a freemson at the same time. So, I assume that freemasons are ignorant about christianity. Mabey I'm wrong. Do the lodges teach about Christ? Do the lodges teach their muslim members that Islam is a militant religion with the goal of forcibly converting all people to that religion(Texe Marrs)? Do the lodges teach that there is only one true god, and it is the god of the sons of Isreal and christians?
I also notice that many masons deny that the NWO(globalism) is a reality. Is it shared among all masons that there is no such thing as the NWO(golbalism), or do some masons believe in the NWO and it's agenda to bring about a one world government or a globalist gov't?

Novus Ordo Seclorum

The move towards a united world government that is achieved by and of all the people is something that I find hard to refute, though I feel it can be either good or bad for humanity if we make or allow it to be so.
My family tree is full of Masons, from Ireland, Scotland, and may even be traced to France. The only thing that they were very much opposed to was the RCC. They were all Christians, in fact, my dad never became one cuz he is atheist, and that is against their rules.
Wake up, mason bashers. The charitable works alone should stand as good proof that shriners, etc. are good folk. Whether the highest levels are involved in backstage manipulation of things in collusion with the tops of the other groups, ie, the RCC, world gov'ts, churches, corporate leaders, etc., is only to be expected. those in power wish to remain there, and they aren't about to publicize their means of doing so to the world.......of course.

mindcontolled.

What you have claimed as fact in the above, is in reality conjecture. To claim that Christianity is the one true religion because it is proven is a lie.
Maybe you have read the Bible, but you certainly don't seem to understand it. Swallowing it and being able to repeat it parrot fashion does not necessarily make one an "expert" in Christianity.

As already pointed out to you, a lot of what you have stated is based on Faith. You're using the Bible to attack Freemasonry but the problem is that you seem to have no idea about it's content or the background behind the book. The Biblical prophecies have not been fulfilled. Even with your very dodgy interpretation of a few of them coming to pass, the major prophesies in Revelation have not occured. I suggest you try to stay away from the prohecies as a line of attack - they only weaken your argument. The 1948 creation of Israel is not a prophecy fulfillment. Read the Bible and you will see that the Jews were promised a territory that spanned the world. Israel is a tiny state fighting for it's existence - hardly the glorious nation that the Bible perceives. As for the end-times? Take a look at history. Since the Bible has been written, mankind has gone through a myriad of crises, anyone of which had more pertinence to the word endtimes than current events of today. You have merely manipulated the word to suit you cause.

Finally, this line seems to sum you up more than anything else you have written - Do the lodges teach their muslim members that Islam is a militant religion with the goal of forcibly converting all people to that religion.

Freemasonry does not teach hatred. It seems that the same cannot be said for you and where-ever you got your belief from though. I don't "practice" with my "enemy" as you so state either. I don't look upon people of other religions as enemies. Religious fundametalists may have "enemies", but this only shows that the Word of Jesus has flown completely over their heads.


[edit on 12-2-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by akilles
All Masons (who posted here) have made it abundantly clear they know the correct interpretation of the Bible.

I'm not here to dispute that.

I get the feeling they won't share their interpretation, however.

Not sure what you're talking about here akilles. I'm a Mason who regularly posts here and I've never made it even *moderately* clear that I know the correct interpretation of the Bible. I'd never make such a bold claim. I leave that to Fundamentalist Christians and their ilk.

But in the light of this thread let me say this. I AM a devout Trinitarian Christian and a proud Freemason. I have not problem being both...because (as has been said over and over and over...) Freemasonry is NOT a religion. We require our members to believe in a supreme being, the God and creator of all) THAT'S IT! Plain and simple.

My particular Christian denomination (unlike Fundamentalists) does not make the bold claim that we are the "One True Church" We are a PART of the One True Church...and there are MANY parts.

Jesus said "In my father's house are MANY dwelling places..."

Room enough for Masons, Knights of Columbus, Jews, Moslems...and perhaps a few ranting raving foaming-at-the-mouth fundamentalist Christians.....