The one thing I find interesting about the historical New Testament..

I have been knee deep in following scholarship concerning the New Testament and have learned just a mountain of cool stuff..

The only thing that I think kinda totally discredits AND hints at something divine is concerning the authorship of the NT.


Jesus, his dicipes and followers would have almost certainly been poor illiterate judean dirt farmers and fisherman, but the NT was first written in Sheakspear level Classical Greek..

Which kinda blows up the potential for the Bible to written from first person accounts..

However!!

How was the Bible written by arguably the best writer in the world at the time?!?!

From everything I have seen, scholars both critical and apologetic agree that not only was the Bible not written by poor Jews..

It was likely written by the very best authors on the planet at the time..

That by itself says something I think..

What is the mathematical probability that ANT text is written by maybe the best writer alive???

It’s gotta be a low , low percentage chance..


There are other explanations, such as the theory the Bible (NT) was written at the command of Roman nobility..

Hypothetically, they would have access to that level of authors and all the primary documents..

However, I still think it is facinating that the Bible was written by the sheakspear of the era.

There is no good reason why writers of that time may have been inferior to modern day writers.
They had no public education system to dumb them down.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
Jesus, his dicipes and followers would have almost certainly been poor illiterate judean dirt farmers and fisherman, but the NT was first written in Sheakspear level Classical Greek..

Not really. The New Testament is among the earliest records of common or KOINE Greek, the speech of ordinary people.There are recognisable differences between that language and the more educated and literary language of Classical Greek. The language spoken by Greeks today is traceable back to the KOINE.
So the better conclusion is that most of the New Testament was written by ordinary people.

The gospel of Mark, in particular, is in very simple language.
Paul seems to have had a fairly good education. In any case, he was born outside Palestine, and most Jews "of the Dispersion" would have grown up as Greek-speakers. They are the "Hellenists" mentioned at the beginning of Acts.
John's gospel is more literary. Perhaps he had a "ghost-writer".
On the other hand, one of the lapsed members of ATS used to rant about the "illiteracy" of the Greek of Revelation (as if that mattered).

On the question of how much people spoke Greek;
Certainly the teaching of Jesus was probably in Aramaic. Some of his Aramaic phrases have been embedded in the text.
But even in Palestine, society may have been partly bi-lingual, with Greek being commonly used as a lingua franca.
People living in a bi-lingual society often pick up a lot of the other language as they go along, for practical reasons.
And, as I said, even the Jews outside Palestine would have been Greek-speaking.
Which leads to the probability that the New Testament was written by "Hellenistic" Jews.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Funny you should mention Shakespeare, I heard the New Testament was commissioned by King James and carried out by Francis Bacon and his writers. I don’t think there is any proof of this though, just as there’s no hard proof he was the real Shakespeare.

a reply to: surfer_soul
That would have been difficult, because the New Testament existed nearly fifteen hundred years before James was born.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Sorry I meant the King James version

a reply to: JoshuaCox
Weren't the Gospels written in Aramaic first? And from what I have understood, the Jews of that time all studied at their Synagogues, and all of the men were literate, taking part in the services by reading and expounding on the texts. I would say that they were all capable, intelligent people. Surely, not illiterate "dirt farmers".

a reply to: skunkape23

Well without a public education system only about 1-3% could read and only 1% could write..


So what are America’s literacy rates again???


Lol... just lol..

a reply to: DISRAELI

Not the gospels which were the earliest books. They were written in Classical Greek.

Scholars know that that is all the Jewish people could read/write, so they assume its origins were Aramaic, but with the exception of maybe mark (the oldest book) . The rest were written In Greek “first” and we’re thought to be oral traditions before their Greek. There are loads of proverbs and sayings that cannot be translated into Aramaic. Meaning it was first written in Greek.


There is no evidence of ANY first century Jew who wrote in Greek except Josephus and he freely admitted he needed help to write in Classical Greek.


Only 1-3% of the jews people could read, and only 1% could write..

It is almost certain none could write at the level of skill shown in the NT..

a reply to: surfer_soul

It predates old king James by a millennia plus 600 years lol.

a reply to: surfer_soul

It predates old king James by a millinia lol.

a reply to: darkwingduck

Not at all ...

1-3% could read Arabic and 1% could write Arabic.

The number of Jews that could read and write in Classical Greek could probably be counted on one hand.. globally..


Christianity became a majority Roman religion within 60-80 years after jesus’s Death.

Which is right when the gospels first surface, and Paul really solidifys dogma.

a reply to: darkwingduck

If I’m right they were Aramaic oral traditions before being written in Classical Greek , except for maybe mark. Which is the oldest book and maybe the inspiration for the whole NT.

A lot of scholars think mattew and Luke used mark and an unknown text “Q” (not q from Star Trek.. well maybe not q from Star Trek... :p) as their sources .

John is agreed upon to be the latest and almost certainly a forgery.


Mark is the only book that could have been a primary or first person account.


Everything else came from Paul who lived 40 years after the crucifixion and never even met the guy.. Paul claims Joseph Smith and David koresh type visions.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
Not the gospels which were the earliest books. They were written in Classical Greek.

No, they were not written in Classical Greek. They were written in the KOINE version of Greek. The language of ordinary people.A language which was spoken and written and read by the "Dispersion" Jews living outside Palestine. As in the "Septuagint" Greek version of the Old Testament, translated at least two centuries earlier. I would have suggested checking some real books instead of wandering the internet looking for "cool stuff", but even the internet knows about KOINE.
For heaven's sake, look it up. "Deny ignorance".

P.S. "...rather rough style, far removed from the polished style of the rhetorical schools..."
D.E. Nineham, commentary on Mark, Introduction p40
Just a sample of the information that can be found from people who actually know things.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Over the years, the theory that Josephus himself may have authored a few books in the NT has grown on me. He was very highly educated and quite clever, but plenty of others around the Levant at the time were as well. It's the parallels in his known works to the NT writings that are pretty convincing.

www.josephus.org...

a reply to: DISRAELI

Fair enough, but I swear I have heard Bart Erhman say it was written in Classical Greek, but maybe he was referring to a specific book, rather than the whole thing..

However, Koine or Classical it is irrelevant to the point..


Jesus and the people who actually met him were almost certainly illiterate in ARAMAIC, let alone the VERY highly educated in Greek of the author of the gospels..


No critical scholar thinks they are first person accounts..

The only book that critical scholars think has ANY chance of being a COPY of a legit primary source is mark.


Luke and Matthew are thought to likely be forgeries that used mark as a source, and John is universally considered to be a forgery and the latest gospel written.

The is no logical scenerio where poor uneducated Jews wrote the NT.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
The is no logical scenerio where poor uneducated Jews wrote the NT.

As I suggested from my very first response; the probability is that most of it was written by Greek-speaking "Hellenistic" Jews from the Dispersion.

Just to refresh what I told you;

The gospel of Mark, in particular, is in very simple language.
Paul seems to have had a fairly good education. In any case, he was born outside Palestine, and most Jews "of the Dispersion" would have grown up as Greek-speakers. They are the "Hellenists" mentioned at the beginning of Acts.
John's gospel is more literary. Perhaps he had a "ghost-writer".
On the other hand, one of the lapsed members of ATS used to rant about the "illiteracy" of the Greek of Revelation (as if that mattered).

a reply to: AgarthaSeed

I really like that theory as well.

It perfectly explains...

A) the softening of Christianity and Judaism comming out of the Roman purges..

B) the skill level required to actually write the New Testament... if anyone could get the best author on the planet to write a book for them it is the emperor..



The argument against that is the fact the Roman purges can account for the softening of the 2 religions dogmas, no conspiracies required.

The Romans killed all the militant Jews and Christians, only the ones teaching nonviolence survived..

a reply to: AgarthaSeed

I really like that theory as well.

It perfectly explains...

A) the softening of Christianity and Judaism comming out of the Roman purges..

B) the skill level required to actually write the New Testament... if anyone could get the best author on the planet to write a book for them it is the emperor..



The argument against that is the fact the Roman purges can account for the softening of the 2 religions dogmas, no conspiracies required.

The Romans killed all the militant Jews and Christians, only the ones teaching nonviolence survived..

a reply to: DISRAELI

Greek speaking Hellenistic jews from the dispersion would not have been found in rural Judea..


They were dispersed lol..

Let’s say that the million to one chance happens and their is one Greek literate Jew in jesuses circle..


What is the chance the just happens to be the best Jewish author who writes in Greek ON THE PLANET..


The people who wrote the gospels were not “Jews who had picked up a little Greek in their travels..”

They were master wordsmiths in greek.. to rival ANYTHING else being put out at the time.. ANYWHERE..

That is what I mean by “The sheakspear of their era..


The modern studies show that only 3% of first century Jews could read AT ALL, even in Aramaic.

Joesephus was the only first century Jew who wrote in Greek that we have any record of. Period..

And joesephus was educated the Flavian dynasty..

It almost takes divine intervention to put a author of the level who wrote the Bible in a room with a judean dirtfarmer for him to have been a secretary..

It almost would have taken an act of god just to get one to do it. Real or fake.