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Immigration and the left.

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posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: network dude



I am continually baffled by the stance the left seems to have taken. I say "seems", as when I state that, I am told it's a strawman,


If you are referring to the thread I think you are, yes, you created a strawman argument.



yet none of the lefties will step up and explain their stance.


This topic has been discussed for decades and the many differing positions of people on the left has been vocalized many times.

Were/are you not paying attention for the past 30-40 years?



But with regard to the "illegal" part of immigration, there are people, families, children, sneaking over our borders and entering our nation without permission, and without following the laws and rules we have enacted by a democratic process. If we are going to take Murder seriously, take rape seriously, take theft seriously, then why would be not take immigration laws seriously? Is it because "muh feels"? Are you afraid of how it would look for others to see you want to follow the rules?


Funny you mention your "feels", as you just employed an appeal to emotion, equating immigration to murder, rape and theft.



If the left, and the Trump haters in general, are willing to take the stance of ignoring the laws of immigration, why do we have those laws to begin with?


It's not about ignoring them. It's about understanding that the problem is much bigger and more complex than most people seem to understand. If a person commits murder or steals something, we can hold them accountable. They are individuals and they had the intent of committing those crimes.

In the case of immigration, there are many people that came to this country illegally, yet had no choice in the matter and did not choose to do so. So it is not as simple as you present it.



Are those people not smart enough to realize that we also have a process to change laws, to remove laws, and to strengthen laws? If Immigration should be ignored, and 'let the chips fall where they may', then we need to change the laws to reflect that. But it most be done the right way, and it needs to be done at the will of "the people", and not just the ones who think they are more correct. (pro tip, everyone thinks they are more correct)


I'm not sure what that really has to do with the topic. It's not about the need to change existing laws, it's about finding a way to deal with the people that are already here, have planted roots and for all intents and purposes, are Americans.



So please explain why you feel we should ignore the law on this topic. I would honestly like to know.


That's a loaded question. If you were really, honestly, concerned about learning what other people thought, you would not use loaded questions and attempt to insult people's intelligence.




posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: theatreboy

Times change. So do opinions. 2005 was 13 years ago and the national discourse has developed and evolved immensely since then. Expecting people to believe and subscribe to the same thinking they did a decade and a half ago is silly and partisan talk.


Are you aware of the process we have to change laws? And more importantly, do you fully understand that just because you feel this is the right thing, the majority of the United States may not feel the same way?



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: network dude



If the laws were just written a few years ago, you might have a leg to stand on, you don't. Unless you can show that the nation as a whole is biased towards letting people from "desirable" nations enter, you are just using a logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion. Don't be that guy.


Did you not read your own OP? You are that guy.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Again. What are you talking about? I was responding to someone who couldn't understand why a politician would be for a border wall 13 years ago but suddenly be against it today. I explained that it is because opinions evolve. If we are talking about a politician their opinion likely also reflects the will of the majority of their constituents (outside of any corruption, but I'm assuming nothing here).



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:44 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: network dude

Laws are supposed to reflect morality and laws shouldn't trump morality. Calling someone a criminal just because he crossed an imaginary line is stupid.


Border lines are not imaginary. They are the results of negotiations, wars, politics and laws. They are legally binding.


We owe a great many things in this country that we take for granted due to immigrants, both legal and illegal.


It could be argued that the illegals are being exploited. It is much better to prevent the exploitation by removing them from the equation.


They aren't destroying the country, in fact the EXACT opposite is true.


A few months ago I would have actually agreed with you. Illegal aliens are not the problem, it's the legal residents that want to ignore the laws when it is convenient for them that are the problem. But now we have illegal aliens blockading rightful entry to legal residents in their protests, believing they are owed something. So now I lump those illegal aliens in with the residents that ignore the law.

We are a nation of laws. Ignoring the law is destructive to the nation.


They have made our country great and continue to do so.


They undercut the wages of legal citizens. That is not great.


So you want to know why I feel the way I do about illegal immigrants? Open a history book.


You want to know how I feel about illegal immigration? I'm what some people call part-indigenous-American. My ancestors were here before the Spaniards and other European explorers. My ancestors didn't enforce immigration laws on the new people and look what happened.

So I say, learn from history and control the damn borders and immigration before another culture runs roughshod and we find ourselves on a reservation. Again.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: introvert

If you enter the United States without permission, you have broken the law. is that a true statement?

If you break the law, are you not subject to the punishment of that law?

And finally, why do you feel that YOU get to pick and choose who is guilty, and which laws matter? I ask this based on your response and position on the matter.

I even agree that we should make the path to citizenship easier and more streamline. But if I have to follow the rules of this nation, I sure as hell will demand that you do as well.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:45 AM
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originally posted by: openyourmind1262
a reply to: Teikiatsu

The best part of your reply is this" being painted as victims". The majority of which is not victims. When they are deported over & over again and still find a way back in....big problem. I agree we're not Mexico & Canada....but those two countries enforce their immigration laws.....in a very strict manner. I love freedom and I'm all for being charitable...but there's a point to where our charity is being used & abused...we past that point years ago.


I chose my words carefully, and I agree 100% with you.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:47 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude



If the laws were just written a few years ago, you might have a leg to stand on, you don't. Unless you can show that the nation as a whole is biased towards letting people from "desirable" nations enter, you are just using a logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion. Don't be that guy.


Did you not read your own OP? You are that guy.


LOL, you have fun with your version of reality. It's refreshing to see just how far skewed your thinking is.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


So they do...can you believe way back in the year 2016, Clinton campaigned on recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And after months of hard thought, about 8, changed her stance because Trump actually did it?

Sorry, stop trying to justify the fact that laws are not being enforced.

Also, stop using feelings, they don't count....use logic instead. If laws had been enforced, these people would not be here illegally and entrenched in a lifestyle that they should not have because they did not come through the front door....which by the way, will stay open for those who come here legally...and I welcome each and everyone of those immigrants.

Also, I will not research for you, but between the end of WW2, and the 60's, the US closed its borders to allow those here legally to learn English and assimilate.

Coming to America is not a right, it is a privilege, and if you violate that, I don't feel sorry for you, you get what you deserve.
edit on 1-2-2018 by theatreboy because: I cannot spell



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:50 AM
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I wrote this in another thread and it's directly relevant, so I'm gonna paste it here:

Here's a question for you... There are over 1.2 billion people in the continent of Africa, the majority of whom live in extreme poverty. The US has approximately 327 million people. If your desire is to help everyone who wants to come here, would you be ok with the US suddenly taking in the worst-off half of the African population that is routinely dying of starvation and preventable disease? Would you be ok with tripling the population of the United States, with people who have no education or skills and aren't employable? I'm willing to bet your answer will be something alone the lines of "well, no, we would have to stagger the immigration so as to not completely overwhelm the systems in place".

Think about that for a second.

The US already accepts about 1 million legal immigrants every year, more than any other nation on Earth... 1 million per year. How many more do you think we can take every year without causing undue strain on the systems put in place to help them? Another million? Ten million? 600 million? Sooner or later you reach a point where you have to say "Ok, we're already doing what we can here, we need to have some limits in place"... Like every other country in the world that accepts immigrants.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:55 AM
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originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Border lines are not imaginary. They are the results of negotiations, wars, politics and laws. They are legally binding.

Uh yes, they are imaginary. Just because a bunch of men in suits decided that country A ends here and country B begins afterwards doesn't make them any less so. You can have all the paperwork in the world to back that up, but it doesn't change the fact that borders are a construct of the imagination. A bird isn't going to listen to those men saying the US ends here and Canada begins. Hell, it doesn't even stop people with a desire to relocate.


It could be argued that the illegals are being exploited. It is much better to prevent the exploitation by removing them from the equation.

Until Nationalists stop trying to demonize every illegal in the country and kick them out I really don't feel like you guys have a leg to stand on as it pertains to them being exploited or not. If we had my way, they'd be legalized, put on the books, and made much harder to exploit. You, on the other hand, are just using their exploration as a talking point to defend why they shouldn't be here (of course ignoring how much worse their situation was where they came from).


A few months ago I would have actually agreed with you. Illegal aliens are not the problem, it's the legal residents that want to ignore the laws when it is convenient for them that are the problem. But now we have illegal aliens blockading rightful entry to legal residents in their protests, believing they are owed something. So now I lump those illegal aliens in with the residents that ignore the law.

Protest results in ugly actions from protestors. Nothing new here.


We are a nation of laws. Ignoring the law is destructive to the nation.

For sure. All those pot smokers are TOTALLY destroying the country, right?


They undercut the wages of legal citizens. That is not great.

Not if you recognize their existence, legalize them, and get their wages to a competitive level. OR you could always target the businesses that actually employ these people, but I never hear you guys itching to blame them for anything.


You want to know how I feel about illegal immigration? I'm what some people call part-indigenous-American. My ancestors were here before the Spaniards and other European explorers. My ancestors didn't enforce immigration laws on the new people and look what happened.

They suffered a two continent wide pandemic that wiped out something like 90% of the indigenous peoples preventing the remaining people from having enough presence to keep the invading force out?


So I say, learn from history and control the damn borders and immigration before another culture runs roughshod and we find ourselves on a reservation. Again.

So control the borders or a pandemic will wipe out the country side? Isn't that what the CDC is for?



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:56 AM
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originally posted by: trollz
Like every other country in the world that accepts immigrants.


quoted for dramatic effect........



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:57 AM
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a reply to: network dude



If you enter the United States without permission, you have broken the law. is that a true statement?


Yes.



If you break the law, are you not subject to the punishment of that law?


Yes.



And finally, why do you feel that YOU get to pick and choose who is guilty, and which laws matter? I ask this based on your response and position on the matter.


I do not get to choose. We get to choose.

Collectively, we do not care much about this issue. It's a buzz issue used by politicians to get people worked up for the sake of votes and propaganda, but in general, people do not care.



I even agree that we should make the path to citizenship easier and more streamline. But if I have to follow the rules of this nation, I sure as hell will demand that you do as well.


Sure. It seems as though you may have missed the point in my post. This issue is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. It is much more complex and solutions will not be found by taking such a position.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:57 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Isn’t morality relative?



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude



If the laws were just written a few years ago, you might have a leg to stand on, you don't. Unless you can show that the nation as a whole is biased towards letting people from "desirable" nations enter, you are just using a logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion. Don't be that guy.


Did you not read your own OP? You are that guy.


LOL, you have fun with your version of reality. It's refreshing to see just how far skewed your thinking is.


No need to have a different version of reality. You posted it. You said it.

Your hypocrisy is your burden to bear, not mine.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:58 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you own a home? I only ask because if you do, you have a yard with boundaries. If a family of illegal Canadians set up camp on your front lawn and refused to leave, would you feel they had the right to stay there forever?

I don't think you have thought this through very well.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude



If the laws were just written a few years ago, you might have a leg to stand on, you don't. Unless you can show that the nation as a whole is biased towards letting people from "desirable" nations enter, you are just using a logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion. Don't be that guy.


Did you not read your own OP? You are that guy.


LOL, you have fun with your version of reality. It's refreshing to see just how far skewed your thinking is.


No need to have a different version of reality. You posted it. You said it.

Your hypocrisy is your burden to bear, not mine.


and your posts are here for all to read as well. I am happy to own mine.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 10:01 AM
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originally posted by: theatreboy
a reply to: Krazysh0t


So they do...can you believe way back in the year 2016, Clinton campaigned on recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And after months of hard thought, about 8, changed her stance because Trump actually did it?

I don't care about Clinton. I only care about myself and my beliefs. I just explained why someone would believe something in the past but believe differently later. For instance: How about explaining how Trump is suddenly a Republican now after decades of being a Democrat?


Sorry, stop trying to justify the fact that laws are not being enforced.

Maybe you're right. Jeff Sessions should kill the marijuana industry. After all, it is federally illegal right? That MUST mean the law is just and should be enforced!


Also, stop using feelings, they don't count....use logic instead. If laws had been enforced, these people would not be here illegally and entrenched in a lifestyle that they should not have because they did not come through the front door....which by the way, will stay open for those who come here legally...and I welcome each and everyone of those immigrants.

I have not expressed a single feeling in this thread. Everything I say is one based from logic and research.


Also, I will not research for you, but between the end of WW2, and the 60's, the US closed its borders to allow those here legally to learn English and assimilate.

Ok. So what?


Coming to America is not a right, it is a privilege, and if you violate that, I don't feel sorry for you, you get what you deserve.

Yeah, It's a shame your ancestors didn't get the same when they came here.
edit on 1-2-2018 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 10:01 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: network dude



If you enter the United States without permission, you have broken the law. is that a true statement?


Yes.



If you break the law, are you not subject to the punishment of that law?


Yes.



And finally, why do you feel that YOU get to pick and choose who is guilty, and which laws matter? I ask this based on your response and position on the matter.


I do not get to choose. We get to choose.

Collectively, we do not care much about this issue. It's a buzz issue used by politicians to get people worked up for the sake of votes and propaganda, but in general, people do not care.



I even agree that we should make the path to citizenship easier and more streamline. But if I have to follow the rules of this nation, I sure as hell will demand that you do as well.


Sure. It seems as though you may have missed the point in my post. This issue is not as black and white as you seem to think it is. It is much more complex and solutions will not be found by taking such a position.


I care, and about half of the nation also cares. See, this is where your version of reality isn't congruent with the Nation's. You may not like it, but WE are interested in securing our borders. By WE, I mean the half of the voting public that decided to take a chance on Trump.



posted on Feb, 1 2018 @ 10:04 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Home ownership is NOT comparable to country borders. It's more apt to compare a country's borders to state borders. So let's do that. States have open borders and allow people to cross freely without checking. How many states have been torn apart due to free access between them?



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