Come on sminkey you are trying to say that not being born at all is better than being born to poor parents?
Please.
You and I both know that is bull#.
As for not doing it, would you say the same about rape?
I mean after all what right do we have to say a man can not get his jolles by raping women? Dont agree with it then dont do it, but dont you dare force your quaint morality on anyone else.
You say its only a potential life, but that potential is alive, it may or may not be consious, but it is alive. Tell me do you feel that those who are brain dead should be killed as well? Afterall they're no longer consious.
See the simple fact is a fetus s human and alive. It is human life.
I suspect you use the "potential life" argument becuase in your heart you know what you are supporting is murder, pure and simple.
Rationilise it all you want but its murder. It is the intentional premeditated killing of a living breathing human being.
To say that a womans abillity not to be inconvienced by the results of her own actions trumps that of another living humans to live is ludicrous.
Yu say that in some situations aborton s the least worst outcome, maybe for the mother, but not for her child. There s no circunstance in whch abortion is better than any other course of action for that fetus, on that I think we can both agree at least.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Come on sminkey you are trying to say that not being born at all is better than being born to poor parents?
Please.
You and I both know that is bull#.

Not really, would you want to live up say in a place like iraq or in say a place where men and women abuse children?

As for not doing it, would you say the same about rape?
I mean after all what right do we have to say a man can not get his jolles by raping women? Dont agree with it then dont do it, but dont you dare force your quaint morality on anyone else.

I dont have a right, but it is still part of the chivalry that does still exist in some "true" men, I have a right to defend another citezen.
Also if your going to say a fetus is a citizen then your wrong, citenzen ships require you to be born or apply for it.
I dont see any fetus's completeing citenzenship forms do you?

You say its only a potential life, but that potential is alive, it may or may not be consious, but it is alive.

Its only as alive as my dog, if I dont want it to suffer do you say I cant put it down?

Tell me do you feel that those who are brain dead should be killed as well? Afterall they're no longer consious.

That is not my decsion, but the decsion of the family's this is what we want to give the families a choice.

See the simple fact is a fetus s human and alive. It is human life.

No its not, define human.
Alive yes it is, only as alive as another being but so is everything natural.
Define human life..

I suspect you use the "potential life" argument becuase in your heart you know what you are supporting is murder, pure and simple.

You suspect wrong.
Then you call the military murders?
After all they are murdering people , right?

Rationilise it all you want but its murder. It is the intentional premeditated killing of a living breathing human being.

Actually its not, its balanceing if that life will grow up to actually have a "life" and not live in suffering, unless your for suffering?

To say that a womans abillity not to be inconvienced by the results of her own actions trumps that of another living humans to live is ludicrous.

Okey, lets see 13 stone woman vs 18 stone man?
Who wins?
Women are naturally physically not as strong as men, they are better in a hell of a lot in other feilds than men and can if they work at it become stronger than a normal males BUT most are not bodybuilders or athleits.

Yu say that in some situations aborton s the least worst outcome, maybe for the mother, but not for her child. There s no circunstance in whch abortion is better than any other course of action for that fetus, on that I think we can both agree at least.

Really?
So when african children are born into an aids full area and dont recieve support from others they are "not in the worst circumstance"?
Get real , the mother has to look out for both her intrests and the childs, if she thinks the baby wont live in a happy or atleast survivable area then she must do whats best for it.

Yes devilwasp I say a child born in Iraq or sudan is better off than one aborted in America. The one born has hope, the one aborted has nothing.
The one born thogh abused has the abillity to overcome that abuse and can end up a happy healthy human being the other can not.
And if you need me to define human life devlwasp you are even more ignorant than I though you were.
Still think two species can evolve into the same species devilwasp?
Still think a modern chimp will one day evolve into a human?
Stick to worshipping the sunburn devlwasp you are not qalified to discuss things with adults yet.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Yes devilwasp I say a child born in Iraq or sudan is better off than one aborted in America. The one born has hope, the one aborted has nothing.
The one born thogh abused has the abillity to overcome that abuse and can end up a happy healthy human being the other can not.
And if you need me to define human life devlwasp you are even more ignorant than I though you were.
Still think two species can evolve into the same species devilwasp?
Still think a modern chimp will one day evolve into a human?
Stick to worshipping the sunburn devlwasp you are not qalified to discuss things with adults yet.

Firstly, a child who dies because she/he cant survive because her/his parents die due to aids didnt have a hope in hell did they?

Second the aborted one has just as much chance or did you not read that article about the "aborted" child?

Thirdly, Its easy to throw that statement to not answer the question. Why dont you just answer the question, how do you define human life?
Fourthly the species bit can happen otherwise we wouldnt exist, well thats if you believe in evolution.
Also evolution takes a VERY long time so I dont know, I cant tell the future. Can you?

Fithly I dont worship it since I have no place to worship it now do I? Besides I hear no comments like this about the F-22 threads....or is that just "diffrent" , I can talk fine with people that call themselves "adults" Isnt it a bit of an embarrassment when a "teenager" behaves better than you do?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Come on sminkey you are trying to say that not being born at all is better than being born to poor parents?

- No. That is a false comparison IMO and an irrelevant one that cannot be made.

I am saying that a mother's/families' choice not to have a birth is something different altogether.

Then again to be born a child in a famine zone in Africa and starve to death or to be born with AIDS, I don't know mwm.........would it be better to have never been born, I can see that it might well have been.

Please.
You and I both know that is bull#.

- In those terms, yes, I'd say it is.
The trouble is (for your side of the debate) those terms are IMO fatuous and merely rhetorical word-play.

As for not doing it, would you say the same about rape?
I mean after all what right do we have to say a man can not get his jolles by raping women? Dont agree with it then dont do it, but dont you dare force your quaint morality on anyone else.

- I'd have thought the point was pretty clear - you even unwittingly make it here - about the differences between forcing your views on the birthed alive.

Once again I'm sorry to say I see this as mere rhetorical dancing.

To cite something along the lines of rape as if similar and relevant is nothing but ridiculous IMO.
Rape involves live conscious people and is hardly a matter of free choice for all concerned.

You say its only a potential life, but that potential is alive, it may or may not be consious, but it is alive.

- I have not disputed this, ever; have I?

Are you about to tell me 'all life is sacred'?
Cos that point of view I have much respect for, even if I personally do not see it's application in all cases in the world as always practical.

Tell me do you feel that those who are brain dead should be killed as well? Afterall they're no longer consious.

- Er, life support is routinely withdrawn from those showing 'brain death' the world over everyday.

......and yes, I can see the sense of that.

......and yes, I have read the stories of thehandful that 'came back' too.

See the simple fact is a fetus s human and alive. It is human life.

- Once again I am not and have not been disputing this.

But I am saying it is an undeveloped life and that IMO the destruction of the undeveloped - potential - life is not the same as murdering a born alive person.

I suspect you use the "potential life" argument becuase in your heart you know what you are supporting is murder, pure and simple.
Rationilise it all you want but its murder. It is the intentional premeditated killing of a living breathing human being.

- No. I'm sorry but for the reasons given before I profoundly disagree.

I - like most 'pro-choice' people - see nothing especially 'good' about abortion, it is something I imagine always to be regretted and hardly something anyone (sane) would undertake happily.

But the alternative (banning abortion) I see as worse though. Why? Because we can look back not that long ago and see what happened when that was the situation. I do not see that time as 'better'.

To say that a womans abillity not to be inconvienced by the results of her own actions trumps that of another living humans to live is ludicrous.

- Like I said mwm I do not see it in those terms.

Yu say that in some situations aborton s the least worst outcome, maybe for the mother, but not for her child.

- In this circumstance I do not see the foetus as a child (yet).
It's destruction is not the same as murdering a child as far as I am concerned, sorry but IMO it just isn't.

There s no circunstance in whch abortion is better than any other course of action for that fetus, on that I think we can both agree at least.

- Well with some exceptions of course, I would not disagree with that.

(the exceptions being tragic children born to a life of grotesque suffering and agony and/or any number of congenital horrors)

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I could care less what a mod said about the turd thing ed; it's a sad small and very childish insult you've 'snuck through'; how amusing (well, maybe for all of 5 - 10 seconds) but is that what you want this place descending to?

Look the term was told as a way of not offending anyone by one of your liberal leaning Mods. I cant call 'them' liberal leftist tree hugging sadist sickos. So I use turdblossom to lump them all into one as the fragrance fits.
Sadly I can not take credit for its creation.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I can also turn this question back to you, at what week can you say brain development is such that feelings and emotions are possible?

Oh no you don't, from conception it is a human to me, it is still murder no matter how you look at it. The question you should be asking is when does if become justifiable murder?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
(......and as for your repeated use of the abortion pictures?
What did you think ed? Do you think some people don't know the whole business is unpleasant?

Just so you know that was not a picture of an abortion, that was a picture of a surgical procedure on a parasite as you would call it.........amazing though isn't it?

Originally posted by edsinger
Look the term was told as a way of not offending anyone by one of your liberal leaning Mods.

- I could care less ed.
Carry on if you must but I'd say it makes you look small, childish and ridiculous.

Quibble all you like ed but since when was basically referring to people as sh*t (or a minor variation) acceptable?

(By the way, which mod?)

I cant call 'them' liberal leftist tree hugging sadist sickos. So I use turdblossom to lump them all into one as the fragrance fits.

- But clearly you would like to (which is a shame) and just because they differ in view to you.
The whole intention is to insult, berate and slate - and absolutely with no care about your insulting; in fact it's pretty obvious you think this 'clever'.

Again, I ask, is that really what you'd like this place to descend to?

Maybe we could all start using colloquial terms of insult that few know the true meaning of and see if the mods go for that, hmmm?

Wise up ed, it's small, infantile and deeply sad.

Sadly I can not take credit for its creation.

- It saddens me that you might want to.

Oh no you don't, from conception it is a human to me, it is still murder no matter how you look at it. The question you should be asking is when does if become justifiable murder?

- Well there we have it.
I do not accept it is murder because at such an early stage the level of development is so basic.

Just so you know that was not a picture of an abortion, that was a picture of a surgical procedure on a parasite as you would call it.........amazing though isn't it?

- Fair enough - but you would hardly be the first anti-abortionist supporter to do so.
"Parasite as I would call it", eh?
Have I ever used the term?

.......and of course I find nature amazing.

I just don't accept that that is the point in this.

I also note a deafening silence on my point about the fuss made about the living standards so many of the born living have to endure compared to the (comparative) hysteria about the unborn.

Or the similar lack of response about the current situation pertaining in the USA (and Europe for that matter) where people now spend more feeding their pets than we spend on our own children never mind the children of the 3rd world.

Or the mega sums spent on the military which a mere fraction of could shelter, feed, clothe and provide potable water for those without.

But hey, back to abortion, yeah that's the most pressing priority........

Sminkey I honestly don't understand what the fetus's level of devlpment has to do with it.
Could you explain it to me? As you have already accepted that a fetus at any stage of development is in fact a human life, (no I dont feel all life is sacred just all human life) what does it matter how well or undeveloped it is?

You keep saying how undeveloped fetus are at that stage, so what?
I really dont get it.

If its human and alive, then what does its stage of development have to do with it?

Originally posted by mwm1331
You keep saying how undeveloped fetus are at that stage, so what?
I really dont get it.

- Well that is always, I suspect, going to be the sticking point over this.

If its human and alive, then what does its stage of development have to do with it?

- I'm happy to agree it is alive (although so desparately incapable of independant 'life') and I'll agree it fully human (what else could it be?) but I think it's very early level of development means it is so very far from being a conscious individual in the manner we (born) people are and therefore not necessarily subject to the same 'rights' as the born living.

The level of brain development for instance means IMO that at that early stage there is no actual 'person' in the accepted sense, only a potential for a person.

I do not see halting and destroying that potential as murder.

......and I do not feel any need to get awestuck and psuedo-religious about this level of life being so sacred seeing as how nature conspires to 'naturally abort' foetuses at every stage of pregnancy every second of every day the world over.

I'm far more interested in the well being of the many millions (billions?) of people alive and suffering horrible actual lives.

Tell me, is a sperm human?
Is an embryo human?
What defines "human"?

"Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness."

"Having the form of a human"


"any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae"

Originally posted by devilwasp
Tell me, is a sperm human?
Is an embryo human?
What defines "human"?

- I don't worry too much about that kind of thing DW.
To me it's (obviously) human sperm, a human egg and a human embryo.

......but I'm certainly not going to fret about and place the interests of the undeveloped unborn or unfertilised potential ahead of the actual born living.

To me the idea is absurd (and if we broaden it out it can look pretty nasty too when the sexual politics of it are considered in terms of forcing women and/or the poor to bear endless children or go without sex or face the consequences alone etc etc).

I do wonder about those who get so passionate about everything but the actual appalling lives of the living here already!

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I don't worry too much about that kind of thing DW.
To me it's (obviously) human sperm, a human egg and a human embryo.

......but I'm certainly not going to fret about and place the interests of the undeveloped unborn or unfertilised potential ahead of the actual born living.

To me the idea is absurd (and if we broaden it out it can look pretty nasty too when the sexual politics of it are considered in terms of forcing women and/or the poor to bear endless children or go without sex or face the consequences alone etc etc).

I do wonder about those who get so passionate about everything but the actual appalling lives of the living here already!

Yeah but the one thing is, depending on if you call a sperm or embryo a human being then when murder is commited it could be a double murder or genocide.

Well you can check the turdblossom thread and get the inside scoop, seems I got fooled!

You bet I liked it, it so eloquently described the 'left' mentality.

As for insults? Well I will just go back to calling them leftist-liberal-treehuggers....................they wear it as a badge of honor and therefore could not consider it an insult....

When you call me neo conservative right wing patriot, I do not get offended at all, I do not consider myself a neo-con but what the heck, I am pleased when I am called those names for the most part, because that is what I believe!

I'm not too bothered either way ed, I've been to sites that are a total free for all and that's (usually) ok too.

But I do think that if ATS hasn't gone down that road then it's probably best not to even start.
Of course there'll always be jibes, jokes and digs but referring to each other as sh*t or any of that, best avoided, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


To me the idea is absurd (and if we broaden it out it can look pretty nasty too when the sexual politics of it are considered in terms of forcing women and/or the poor to bear endless children or go without sex or face the consequences alone etc etc).

You know sminkey that attitude rght there is why aborton is the issue it is.
I mean God forbid we expect people to act in a resposible manner when it comes to sex. Heaven forbid we expect them them to bear the consequences of thier own actons as opposed to klling a defenseless, innocent child who's only crme was taking root within the body of a woman with so little respect for herself that she didn't bother with the most basic precautions when engaging in an act which is known to carry with it a great deal of personal risk. I mean why should people be responsible for the consequences of thier own actions?
Lest we forget sminkey the fetus is the direct result of the (in the vast majority of cases) actions of two consenting adults who chose to engage in actions which they know could and may lead to pregnancy, or STD's.
But rather than expecting them to bear the burden of thier own actions it is far more enlightened to allow them to dodge any and all responsibility and instead force an innocent to bear those consequences for them.
Yeah thats civilised.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Of course there'll always be jibes, jokes and digs but referring to each other as sh*t or any of that, best avoided, wouldn't you say?

Well yes in a sense, thats why I want to get a word that sums it up but without retyping all the time, I am a very poor typist.


Tulip-walker is not offensive in any way, heck Masked Avatar even got a chuckle out it, but likely I will miss the turdblossom term as it always had the aura of smell about it....