Originally posted by mwm1331
edsinger, why would you bother to continue to discuss anything related to science with a person who thinks two seperate species (humans and monkeys) can evolve into the same species despite the fact that evolutionary theory, the theory of speciation, the whole of natural history, bology and every other life scence states this to be impossible?

And we're the zealots

I guess so, Zealot I am then. But when he says this, I think it explains a lot.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by mwm1331
Devilwasp - germs? Now you are trying to say that human life and germs have the same value?

How can it be classified as human?
Because it will be human one day?
Because it will grow up to become someone someday?
Its quite okay to kill an arm which has more cells than an undeveloped fetus but its not okay to kill a fetus?

It is the fact that he does not see it as a child until it exits the vagina.....sad really, when he gets married one day and feels his wifes belly that attitude will change assuredly, or at least I sure as hell hope so.

Originally posted by edsinger
It is the fact that he does not see it as a child until it exits the vagina.....sad really, when he gets married one day and feels his wifes belly that attitude will change assuredly, or at least I sure as hell hope so.

Actually I'm saying we should give them the choice, instead of forceing it on them.
Why are we men debateing this?
It aint our bodies its there's!
Also, doesnt the government say you are not a citizen until you are born or gain citezenship by applying for it?

Inconclusion, we shouldnt dictate the what can or cant be done to someone elses body with thier concent.

Because they aren't killing a part of thier body either.
Yo can cut off your hand, its your choice. A fetus is not a womans hand, heart, kidney, or any other part of her body. It is a dependant yet seperate organism, with a life which though dependant on the mother is a seperate life unto itself.
Killing our own offspring is the height of inhmanity and barbarism.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Because they aren't killing a part of thier body either.
Yo can cut off your hand, its your choice. A fetus is not a womans hand, heart, kidney, or any other part of her body. It is a dependant yet seperate organism, with a life which though dependant on the mother is a seperate life unto itself.

Yet it is a parasite, by this logic your saying I cant kill a leach or tapeworm in me.
This arguement can go back and forth, cant we agree if you dont like abortion then state your opinion but dont try and force it on others?

Killing our own offspring is the height of inhmanity and barbarism.

So is going into another country and killing thousands based on the opinions of a few "reliable" men.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Because they aren't killing a part of thier body either.
Yo can cut off your hand, its your choice. A fetus is not a womans hand, heart, kidney, or any other part of her body. It is a dependant yet seperate organism, with a life which though dependant on the mother is a seperate life unto itself.

Wow, All I can say is WELL SAID. Kind of puts it in black and white, no gray! Cool!

Originally posted by devilwasp
Yet it is a parasite, by this logic your saying I cant kill a leach or tapeworm in me.This arguement can go back and forth, cant we agree if you dont like abortion then state your opinion but dont try and force it on others?

The sad part is you believe that and really you have no right to call a child a parasite until they are 16.......well maybe 15 also....You make me sad that you can even think of a unborn child as one......sick really.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Killing our own offspring is the height of inhmanity and barbarism.

True, how true and to think some can't even see it is beyond me.

Originally posted by devilwasp
So is going into another country and killing thousands based on the opinions of a few "reliable" men.

Had to get the cheap shot in, look obviously you hate the war, you have bought the turdblossom mentality on the roots of it and that is fine, your choice. Keep in mind that many people much smarter than you and I understand the 'inner' reasons and they are justified. I hope you can look back in 5 years and see this......


Folks, I do believe it is Spring, the turdblossoms are in full bloom!

[edit on 7-3-2005 by edsinger]

Funny how killing an embryo or a fetus is seen as a horrendous crime, but killing Iraqi kids just because you're not sure that's a rock or a toy they're hiding behind their back is the height of patriotism...

Originally posted by Otts
Funny how killing an embryo or a fetus is seen as a horrendous crime, but killing Iraqi kids just because you're not sure that's a rock or a toy they're hiding behind their back is the height of patriotism...

And you can not see the difference? Shame............


Let me tell you the difference,

one killing is premediated murder,

the other is not....

Originally posted by edsinger
Wow, All I can say is WELL SAID. Kind of puts it in black and white, no gray! Cool!

There is no black and white.

The sad part is you believe that and really you have no right to call a child a parasite until they are 16.......well maybe 15 also....You make me sad that you can even think of a unborn child as one......sick really.

Why?
I have every right to call everything anything I want.
Sick by your opinion but not to others, would you let your daughter have an abortion to save her the pain of abortion if she had been raped?


[quote
True, how true and to think some can't even see it is beyond me.

Go take a look in africa, and you moan about abortions?

Had to get the cheap shot in, look obviously you hate the war, you have bought the turdblossom mentality on the roots of it and that is fine, your choice. Keep in mind that many people much smarter than you and I understand the 'inner' reasons and they are justified. I hope you can look back in 5 years and see this......

Define "turdblossum".
Not a cheap shot, the logic still exists, if we cant get along with each other with killing each other why are we moaning about another form of killing?

Folks, I do believe it is Spring, the turdblossoms are in full bloom!
[edit on 7-3-2005 by edsinger]

Folks its nearing easter, the zealots are out in force to celebrate jesus's rebirth with yet another war.

I am interested in how come evangelicals and RC's take such a strong line is taken over this when abortion is not mentioned at all in the Bible.

Considering what is specifically mentioned but people choose to ignore/disregard it seems strange that a religious reason is claimed by so many in this.

I respect the philosophical view that all killing is wrong but sadly that seems very far from the view-point on offer by many anti-abortionists.

I do not see any other 'answer' on this than a least worst one.....

.... and that, IMO, involves the current system of permitting the option (with time limits and all the rest) of a woman having the right not to bear her child and abortion.

I also go with the view that if it were men's bodies we were talking about in relation to all of this there'd be no question that it was their right to determine their own future and fertility......

.....and neither would there be a sense of quiet coy shame generally over the subject either, there'd be a level of laddish boorishness crowding out any of that!

Sminkey even animals dont kill thier own offspring.
It doesnt matter what stage of devolpment its at, it doesnt matter how young you are, how unprepared for parenthood you are, or what language you couch it in, aborton is the premeditated murder of a human being.
Any other description is just semantics.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Sminkey even animals dont kill thier own offspring.

- Woooaaaahh!

Absolutely not so mwm.

A female mouse with young when under threat will kill and eat all her young.
Crocodile males will kill and eat very young crocs if their mother is unable to defend them.
A new dominant male lion will kill the young cubs of his defeated predecessor.

Nature is full of examples where animals will kill their own offspring.

It doesnt matter what stage of devolpment its at, it doesnt matter how young you are, how unprepared for parenthood you are, or what language you couch it in, aborton is the premeditated murder of a human being.
Any other description is just semantics.

- I respect you right to hold such a view but it is not one I share.

Yes lions will kill the cubs t bring the females back nto heat, but if those cubs are thiers even they dont kill them.
I dont know about mice though so I can not say, but even you will agree that those stuations are the exception not the rule.

Honestly sminkey how can you not consider it the premeditated killing of a human being?

Are you one those people who buys into the "its not alive" argument or the "its a parasitic organism" camp or are you one of the "budle of cells" people?

Originally posted by mwm1331
I dont know about mice though so I can not say, but even you will agree that those stuations are the exception not the rule.

- You'll find the mice example is actually the rule when a nursing mother is disturbed and threatened in the nest. They kill and eat their young and attempt to flee.

But surely the point is that this whole topic is the exception and not the rule?

Honestly sminkey how can you not consider it the premeditated killing of a human being?

- Because I believe there is a profound difference between potential human life and actual human life.

Are you one those people who buys into the "its not alive" argument or the "its a parasitic organism" camp or are you one of the "budle of cells" people?

- I'm one of those that refuse to apply emotive absolutes in this.

I haven't said I 'support' a total 'free for all' in this.
I think each case has it's own merits and it is entirely between the mother/family and their conscience and if you don't like the idea of abortion fine, don't have one.

But I, like I believe the majority in my country, prefer to leave the (UK) law as it is. There are controls and legal requirements but generally it is permissable before 24wks.

But certainly in the UK the majority of abortions happen way before the 24wk limit.

Abortion here is not easy or casual and I think that is probably how it should be.
Ultimately though I don't think anyone has the right to force another to have a child or have a child and be made to put it up for adoption (we've been down that road before and it has deeply damaging horrors - which can stretch across generations - all of it's own).

I do think there is a profound difference between the developed born living and the undeveloped unborn incapable of independant living.

I do know that even though we have the medical technology to 'save' under developed babies to an exceptional extreme of approx 24wks that many (recent studies suggest at least 50%) of very premature children will go on to suffer all through their lives, some the most profound mental and/or physical disabilities.

The idea that survival and normality at 24 - 28wks or so is routine is false.

So therefore I suppose I am satisified that a limit to 24wks for an abortion (the time limit for 'normal' non-emergency abortions in the UK) is most likely at the limit of where an unborn child begins to have a chance of independant survival.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
So therefore I suppose I am satisified that a limit to 24wks for an abortion (the time limit for 'normal' non-emergency abortions in the UK) is most likely at the limit of where an unborn child begins to have a chance of independant survival.

So when you feel your wife's belly at 23 weeks and she feels it move, it is still not a life?

Sick.

Originally posted by edsinger
So when you feel your wife's belly at 23 weeks and she feels it move, it is still not a life?

Sick.

Wait your baseing your definition of life on the fact it moves?
A plant moves yet it is not alive.

No not at all and thank you for proving my point,


IT IS A CHILD! A plant is not.....

Originally posted by edsinger
No not at all and thank you for proving my point,

Yeah you are, define intelegent life then?

IT IS A CHILD! A plant is not.....

No its not, its a fetus, look up the dictionary term for it.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by Otts
Funny how killing an embryo or a fetus is seen as a horrendous crime, but killing Iraqi kids just because you're not sure that's a rock or a toy they're hiding behind their back is the height of patriotism...

And you can not see the difference? Shame............


Let me tell you the difference,

one killing is premediated murder,

the other is not....

It's not premeditated murder, especially not if it's to protect the mother's life, or her physical/mental health... or in cases or the aftermath of rape. In all these cases, it's survival.

And nothing will convince me that a woman who becomes pregnant automatically loses any right to control over her own body, to become solely an incubator.

However, I'm not advocating abortion as a universal means of contraception, far from it. In an ideal world, everyone would use contraceptives. But this isn't an ideal world.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Oh get off it ed. Who said it was not 'life' and 'alive'?
Anyone, ever?

The point is whether an undeveloped potential human being is 'alive' in the sense you wish to claim.

Gee that is funny, they have shown that the 'fetus' has feelings and emotions , that should be good enough.......

Originally posted by Otts

However, I'm not advocating abortion as a universal means of contraception, far from it. In an ideal world, everyone would use contraceptives. But this isn't an ideal world.

In the cases you speak of we at least have room for wiggle, but 90% of abortions are for birth control and conveinence, if we could at least stop those........


And it is all up to the mother, unless it comes time to pay for things then the father has a 50% share if not more but no say so in the life of his child, whats fair and right about that?