Originally posted by mwm1331
Devilwasp - germs? Now you are trying to say that human life and germs have the same value?

How can it be classified as human?
Because it will be human one day?
Because it will grow up to become someone someday?
Its quite okay to kill an arm which has more cells than an undeveloped fetus but its not okay to kill a fetus?

hmm I didnt believe the Nazi ideology was really on the rise in the UK till now, but hearing that you think a human and a germ are equal just blew my mind. So tell me devil wasp how little do you love yourself if you think a germ has the same value you do?

Actually there is no "nazi" ideaology over here, if i wanted to think like a nazi then I would believe that my race of people are better than others, go insult some one else.
Secondly the fetus is not a human being, it is a collection of cells, ask any doctor what a fetus is.
An unborn baby, now ask him technically what makes up this , a group of cells.
No brain, no central nervous system hell no organs.
If it was found in a lab people would classify it as less than a jellyfish.

Well heck no it feels nothing, its just a bunch of cells!

Exactly.

Those pictures are of babies that have been aborted , they have brains and nervous systems and probably a limited self awareness.
Look, why should the mother NOT have the choice?
Why should she have to endure the pain of an unwanted child?
Hell, what about rape?
A rapist gets a girl pregnant?
Can she abort?


[edit on 17-2-2005 by devilwasp]

[edit on 17-2-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

[edit on 17-2-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

[edit on 17-2-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

To Marg the great crusader for women,

Thanks to abortion, there is now a huge difference(millions) between male and female populations in China and India. They all prefer to have boys so they kill the females before and immediately after birth. Any wonder these societies devalue female life. They devalue human life in general; that is why they are prochoice.

Man does it suck being Mr Know It All. I truly amaze myself sometimes with these wonderfully thought out comebacks

Sorry about the quad post can I delete this all?

[edit on 17-2-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

Damn Reagan man, lay off the beer.........I just cracked one ! You look like you have had to many!

Just started how that posting happened is beyond me

Devilwasp can you not see that you argument in refernce to germs arms and fetus is sophistry?
An arm is a part of a human however a part is not the whole nor does that part have the abllty naturally to become a whole.
A germ has no sentience, can not devolp sentience, and will never become more than it is.
A human fetus is human lfe by many standards.
It is alive
It is human genetically
It has within it self everything needed save nutrents and shelter to become a thnking feeling human being.
A fetus is not just a bundle of cells, it is a rapidly devolping bundle of cells whch unless interrupted by outside forces ether natural or unnatural (ie abortion or mscarriage) will always become a "fully fledged human" by your standards, neither an arm, a germ, a sperm cell or an egg, will do so. (the sperm and egg will only do so if combned neither alone ever will naturally)

Originally posted by mwm1331
Devilwasp can you not see that you argument in refernce to germs arms and fetus is sophistry?
An arm is a part of a human however a part is not the whole nor does that part have the abllty naturally to become a whole.

So if I kill a bear I am safe?
I kill a fox or any sentient animal I am ok?

A germ has no sentience, can not devolp sentience, and will never become more than it is.
A human fetus is human lfe by many standards.

It is alive in the sense that it will grow into something the same with a baby cat or dog.
You cant justify not killing a thing because it will grow up to be a human being.
The mother gives birth to the child ,thats her choice as a mother, do you want choice removed?

It is alive
It is human genetically
It has within it self everything needed save nutrents and shelter to become a thnking feeling human being.

A monkey has in it everything it needs to evole to be a human being yet i hear no complaints about the mass killings of monkeys or the monkeys being supplied by morroco for land mine detonations.

A fetus is not just a bundle of cells, it is a rapidly devolping bundle of cells whch unless interrupted by outside forces ether natural or unnatural (ie abortion or mscarriage) will always become a "fully fledged human" by your standards, neither an arm, a germ, a sperm cell or an egg, will do so. (the sperm and egg will only do so if combned neither alone ever will naturally)

It may grow up to become one but that doesnt mean we are able to remove a womens choice of what she wants done with her body, i stress hers.
The Baby ( we will call it this for sake) is only liveing off her, like a leach only bigger.

To All Religious zealots , leave the women alone .This is not medival times that you can put someone to the cross and burn . So much for religion loves life!!

If you really care there are billions of people dieing of hunger , you people can go there and do some good. Instead of still trying to control people's lifes.

Nicely put Jadestone.

It's a shame so many seem incapable of having as much passion about the horrible miserable stunted lives of so many of the already living as they do about the not even born.

I don't know if you've ever seen this but whilst it might be a little pithy for some it does give a little perspective IMO -

If we reduce the population of the Earth to a small town with 100
people and keep the proportions, it will look like this:
- 57 Asians
- 21 Europeans
- 14 Americans (northern and southern)
- 8 Africans

- 52 women
- 48 men

- 70 coloured-skins
- 30 caucasians

- 6 people would own 59% of the whole world wealth and all of
them will be from the United States of America

- 80 would have bad living conditions

- 70 will be uneducated

- 50 will be underfed

- 1 would die

- 2 would be born

- 1 will have a computer

- 1 (only one) will have higher education

- If you look at the world from this point of view, you will see how
there is a big need of solidarity, understanding, patience and education.

Also think about the following -

If this morning you've woke up healthy, you are happier then 1
million people that will not survive next week.

If you never suffered a war, the loneliness of the jail cell, the agony of torture, or hunger, you are happier then 500 million people in the world.
If you can enter into a church (mosque) without fear of jail or
death,you are happier then 3 million people in the world.
If there is a food in your fridge, you have shoes and clothes, you have bed and a roof, you are richer then 75% of the people in the world.
If you have bank account, money in your wallet and some coins
in the money-box, you belong to the 8% of the people on the world, which are well-to-do.
If you read this you are three times more blessed because:
1. somebody just thought of you.
2. you don't belong to the 200 million people that
cannot read.
3. and... you have a computer!

As somebody once said:
"- work as if you don't need money, love as if nobody never ever hurt you, dance, as if nobody can see you, sing, as if nobody can hear you and - live, as if the Earth was a heaven."

Some of the resident sour-faced miseries here could do with digesting some of those facts.



[edit on 20-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey


Some of the resident sour-faced miseries here could do with digesting some of those facts.



[edit on 20-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Seems to me like this is the land of opportunity then, maybe other countries should take note of these statistics, just look at the blessings a God Fearing nation can get.

So if I kill a bear I am safe?
I kill a fox or any sentient animal I am ok?

Devilwasp if you truly can not differentiate between a human life and the life of an animal I pity you.

It is alive in the sense that it will grow into something the same with a baby cat or dog.
You cant justify not killing a thing because it will grow up to be a human being.
The mother gives birth to the child ,thats her choice as a mother, do you want choice removed?

She has the choice to use condoms, birth control etc. She has the choice not to enggage in sex. The fact is except for the rare repe induced pregnancy the woman already made her choice. She chose to have sex knowing that she risked pregnancy by dong so. If I choose to go skydiving, pack my own chute and end up injured should I be allowed to sue the company? When you engage in a risky practice you must accept responsibilty for the consequences.

A monkey has in it everything it needs to evole to be a human being yet i hear no complaints about the mass killings of monkeys or the monkeys being supplied by morroco for land mine detonations.

No it doesn't. Monkeys have already evolved, into monkeys. Whle humans and monkeys have a common ancestor it was that ancestor's offspring that branched into the various primate species, while monkeys may evolve into something in the next few million years they will not evolve into humans.

It may grow up to become one but that doesnt mean we are able to remove a womens choice of what she wants done with her body, i stress hers.
The Baby ( we will call it this for sake) is only liveing off her, like a leach only bigger.

I have no problem with a woman dong anythng she wants with herbody. If a woman want's to cut off her arm she can. The fetus however is not a part of her body it is a seperate entity unto itself. No woman is born with a fetus nor do they develop them as a function of puberty.
While the fetus does require the womans body as a life support system it is not by any genetic, or biological standard a part of her body. Unless you can show any evidence of any creature containng two distinct genetic codes, as well as two brains, hearts, nervous systems etc. your argument does not hold water.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Devilwasp if you truly can not differentiate between a human life and the life of an animal I pity you.

Is there a diffrence?

She has the choice to use condoms, birth control etc. She has the choice not to enggage in sex.

There many a situation where this is not possible, and many a situation where it was wanted then yet not wanted now.
Are you prepared to remove a persons right to choose?

The fact is except for the rare repe induced pregnancy the woman already made her choice. She chose to have sex knowing that she risked pregnancy by dong so. If I choose to go skydiving, pack my own chute and end up injured should I be allowed to sue the company?

There are many situations where this is not the truth, also why should they be forced to NOT have something done to themselves because of your opinions or views. Face it your not the majority.

Also I dont think that couples are bringing soliciters or carrying paper work around with them on dates now are they?

When you engage in a risky practice you must accept responsibilty for the consequences.

Sex is no more risky than walking across the street, do you sit and think of the conquences of walking across the street?

No it doesn't. Monkeys have already evolved, into monkeys.

Actually yes, all it requires is a few million years of evolution.

Whle humans and monkeys have a common ancestor it was that ancestor's offspring that branched into the various primate species, while monkeys may evolve into something in the next few million years they will not evolve into humans.

Some WILL branch off into humans eventually as you have said since nature repeats itself.

I have no problem with a woman dong anythng she wants with herbody. If a woman want's to cut off her arm she can. The fetus however is not a part of her body it is a seperate entity unto itself.

So tell me again what the umbilical cord is for again?
Show?
Its part of both the mothers and the babies bodies.
Also she is the parent mother of the child so is responseable for its safety and decisions in its life.
If it is safer to die than live then so be it.

No woman is born with a fetus nor do they develop them as a function of puberty.

No but they have the ability to produce half of what is needed to make one and the fact is that it is the mothers body, if she wants to put a chemical in her that will kill the baby then technically then there is nothing wrong with this.

While the fetus does require the womans body as a life support system it is not by any genetic, or biological standard a part of her body. Unless you can show any evidence of any creature containng two distinct genetic codes, as well as two brains, hearts, nervous systems etc. your argument does not hold water.

Not really, the umbilical cord is part of both bodies, so technically they are one body.
My argument holds water, just not in your religios mind, you are not the US public nor the majority.

devilwasp I am beginning to wonder if you have even the sense god gave a box of rocks.

Monkeys will evolve into humans?
Sex isn't risky?

Whatever I am through talking to you,
as my grandpa used to say "never try to teach a pig to sing it wastes your time and pisses off the pig."

When you progress beyond a 5th grade mentality we can discuss this again.

Originally posted by mwm1331
devilwasp I am beginning to wonder if you have even the sense god gave a box of rocks.

Whos god though?
Yours or mine?
But right now I am being a heretic am I not?

Monkeys will evolve into humans?

In several millions of years probably, but thats if they havent been nuked by us....

Sex isn't risky?

Risky to who?
The mother?
Yes and no, the father?
No and yes, ethier way there is equal amount of no risk and risk.

Whatever I am through talking to you,
as my grandpa used to say "never try to teach a pig to sing it wastes your time and pisses off the pig."

Fine, I would like for you to desist with the endless name callling , which IMO seems to be your SOP.

When you progress beyond a 5th grade mentality we can discuss this again.

I am not the one who is insulting people in each post now am I?
Oh wait thats not immature now is it?
Once you are prepared to look at the situation both ways come and talk to me.
"looking one way is fine, but in the end you'll get hit by the bus comeing the other way."

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Nicely put Jadestone.

It's a shame so many seem incapable of having as much passion about the horrible miserable stunted lives of so many of the already living as they do about the not even born.



[edit on 20-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

I am just tired of those ultra zealots . And those evangelist ,they drive me crazy , are they so hooooly enough that they can only go to heaven(so sure there is one).
Every word in the Bible is true, yea sure only the evangelist were put on earth by God and the rest evolved from monkey.

yes sminkeypinkey thats true ,this is nothing but an attempt to increase the power of their dominations. We have seen that enough in Europe ,how the church manipulates people to get power.

The real issue is putting fear in the heart of the people so that they can increase their power.

Originally posted by devilwasp. If it is safer to die than live then so be it.

Well I think that right there sums it up for you.....sad. Isn't death the ultimate 'unsafe"?

Originally posted by devilwasp.
Not really, the umbilical cord is part of both bodies, so technically they are one body.

With 2 distinct DNA's?????????????

[edit on 21-2-2005 by edsinger]

edsinger, why would you bother to continue to discuss anything related to science with a person who thinks two seperate species (humans and monkeys) can evolve into the same species despite the fact that evolutionary theory, the theory of speciation, the whole of natural history, bology and every other life scence states this to be impossible?

Face it neither devilwasp nor jadestone have the critical thinking skills, knowledge, or IMHO intelligence to discuss this rationally.

And we're the zealots

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I think that right there sums it up for you.....sad. Isn't death the ultimate 'unsafe"?

Not really, It all depends on who/where or whatever you believe in, now doesnt it?
You believe in god , so do you believe in heaven? If so then isnt heaven a safe place?

With 2 distinct DNA's?????????????
[edit on 21-2-2005 by edsinger]

Technically they are made up of the same, the baby is half of the mother and father.
So they do share the same body, and after all it is up to the women to decide what grows in HER body.

Originally posted by mwm1331
edsinger, why would you bother to continue to discuss anything related to science with a person who thinks two seperate species (humans and monkeys) can evolve into the same species despite the fact that evolutionary theory, the theory of speciation, the whole of natural history, bology and every other life scence states this to be impossible?

Funny I thought that religion has just as much stance as theory, after only lately have discoveries been made (Oh and ed I did read part of that thread of yours, very interesting discovery, pussles me why this has recieved little media coverage over here...) that the bible may be true, it depends on what you believe in mwm133, please refrain from getting this emotional, it really does lower the quality of your posts.

Face it neither devilwasp nor jadestone have the critical thinking skills, knowledge, or IMHO intelligence to discuss this rationally.

I am not the one throwing personal insults around, now am I?
Also I have not "lost the head" with ethier your or ed, now tell me where is this not rational?


[edit on 22-2-2005 by devilwasp]