German CEO pay/worker 12:1 And US CEO pay 472:1

What can I say, today I was in a graph mood.

What could be the reasoning for the pay disparage for CEO pay the chart from 2013 shows? Are the CEO's of the US more talented than all the others? Or are the US workers so crappy that the 472:1 ratio is perfect? (A Harvard CEO pay estimate is 373:1).



As this graph shows the corporate profits have substantially risen while worker share of the "pie" has sharply declined. The graph also shows that this is a fairly recent occurrence. This is a very dangerous trend.

hbswk.hbs.edu...

And then we have lobbying.
The graph shows that pharma is the top dog when it comes to lobbying. This may be the very reason many can't afford health care. Pharma costs removes large amounts of money from the privatized socialist system pool of money to pay the very very high pharma costs. This effects US workers as the US is #1 in healthcare costs with little in the way setting the US system apart from any other industrialized nation besides cost.

This could quite possibly be the most concerning bit of info that I have seen today. The growing divide is usually accompanied by an opposite event to correct the inequality, and usually not pleasant. As a fairly successful small business owner I see a problem with how the money is being divided, and I can't see any rationalization to explain this.

a reply to: seasonal

And it's only going to get worse if I had to guess

a reply to: seasonal

I can't see any rationalization to explain this.

I can. it's called run away capitalism and greed.
Land of the free, they say, yet have more slaves than any place in the world. Stuck in a rut of chasing their tails to make ends meet always worrying about the next big pay out they need to fork over to some corporation to save their lives or keep a standard of living.

a reply to: seasonal

Doesn't tell you anything without knowing the average size of companies being ran and compensation structures...

Go take a look at the Fortune 500... these companies are massive and US based corporations. While there are large European and Asian companies, they don't have the same number and size so the comparison of CEO compensation is meaningless because it really isn't apples to apples.

Most US CEOs get the bulk of their compensation as stock options, not salaries so their compensation is highly variable and can appear out sized in any given year depending on when those options are exercised and company performance.

I always find it funny that you see these kinds of charts for CEOs, but no one every trots out one for actors... A list actors make 351 times the lowest paid person on a set. Or athletes.... Lebron James makes 351 times the lowest paid person working at a stadium.

a reply to: strongfp

I have always done well doing things no one else is willing to do when everyone is scared. Example buying homes during the Bank inspired world wide recession. But is the average Joe going to be able to acquire enough wealth to buy homes in 10 years? I don't fear for myself, as they say, "I got mine".

But our kids and their kids? The more years that pass before my eyes the less and less I think this form of capitalism is going to function free from terrible conflict both internally and externally.



.

a reply to: Edumakated

That doesn't excuse any info in the thread.


,

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Edumakated

That doesn't excuse any info in the tread.

It does because the chart is a statistic about nothing made to rile up people who are envious of others....

Unless you get behind the numbers and how they are calculated, you can't really say that the stat is useful or insightful. For example, how do they figure the "lowest paid worker"... doesn't this change based on industry? So if the US has more industries like retail with hundreds of thousands of lower paid workers compared to say a european bank that may not have so many lower paid workers, is it really apples to apples?

a reply to: Edumakated

The top ten largest companies in the world are 90% not in the US.
The CEO of Arcelormittal the largest steel manufacturer in the world based out of Luxembourg makes about 1.4 million a year. Their average worker brings in over 70k a year.

All the top energy leaders in the industry have CEO's making well under a million a year. The China National petroleum CEO only brings in about 110k a year.
Toyota's CEO only shovels in about 1.2mill. While GM's CEO racks in over 28 Million. Guess those bailouts went to good use!

Walmarts CEO brings in more than 30 Million a year, yet their average worker makes 18k a year.
I know it's skilled trade Vrs retail worker, but, at the end of the day it just goes to show the divide from what a CEO in the states sees as what they deserve to what everyone else does.

a reply to: Edumakated

While I agree it is a liquid #, it is still alarming when coupled with the other info contained in the thread.
If you don't or can't see this, it's OK.
Many think all is well with the present division of wealth, and being a small business owner I do not like talking about other peoples money. But with the info that we have in hand it is obvious to me, wish it wasn't but it is.


..

couple of things

1) some of this would be due to the service industry being a tip based industry. I never met a bar tender/waiter/so on that ever claimed all, if any, of their tips. So that would screw a lot of the data

2) Take the CEO salary then divide it by the number of stores they are over seeing. I mean if you are the CEO and your company has 5,000 and you are making 10 million, you are making $2,000 per store per year, or about $38.50 per week, about $1 per day from every store you are over seeing.

I know it's more fun to rant about the evils of capitalism then trying to really figure out the number.....

a reply to: seasonal

These graphs could be the answer to an economics challenge:

"Graph the behavior over time of the type of economy that will do the most harm to the most people and foment the greatest amount of civil strife in the shortest amount of time."

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Edumakated

The top ten largest companies in the world are 90% not in the US.
The CEO of Arcelormittal the largest steel manufacturer in the world based out of Luxembourg makes about 1.4 million a year. Their average worker brings in over 70k a year.

All the top energy leaders in the industry have CEO's making well under a million a year. The China National petroleum CEO only brings in about 110k a year.
Toyota's CEO only shovels in about 1.2mill. While GM's CEO racks in over 28 Million. Guess those bailouts went to good use!

Walmarts CEO brings in more than 30 Million a year, yet their average worker makes 18k a year.
I know it's skilled trade Vrs retail worker, but, at the end of the day it just goes to show the divide from what a CEO in the states sees as what they deserve to what everyone else does.

Four of the Top 10 largest companies by revenue are US companies.... Walmart, Berkshire, Apple, and Exxon.

The Fortune Global 500 top 10 list by annual revenue
WalMart Stores (US) - $485.8bn
State Grid (China) - $315.1bn
Sinopec (China) - $267.5bn
China Natural Petroleum (China) - $262.6bn
Toyota Motor (Japan) - $254.7bn
Volkswagen (Germany) - $240.2bn
Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands) - $240bn
Berkshire Hathaway (US) - $223.6bn
Apple (US) - $215.6bn
Exxon Mobil (US) - $205bn

The Chinese companies are basically the government since they are state owned, so I don't even know if I'd really count those but whatever.

Further, 132 of the Fortune 500 GLOBAL are US companies. So 26% are based in the US. The next closest is China, but again, is that really apples to apples.

Rank Country Companies
1 United States 132
2 China 109
3 Japan 51
4 France 29
5 Germany 29
6 United Kingdom † 21
7 South Korea 15
8 Netherlands † 15
9 Switzerland 13
10 Canada 11

Regarding your Toyota to GM comparison. While it is true he only got paid $1.1 million, he controls shares worth $250 million. His family owns Toyota. CEO of GM, Mary Barra made $28 million, but I'd be surprised if she owns $250 million worth of GM shares. From 2014 article on Mary Barra:

Barra's 2014 salary was $1.6 million. With stock awards, some of which are based on meeting performance targets, she is expected to have total compensation for last year of about $14.4 million.

So again, her salary was relatively low but the bulk of comp comes from stock options based on performance. I don't have time to find the 10ks but I did find an article where she was awarded about 75,000 shares.... GM at the time was at $37 a share, so call it $3 million.

Elon Musk only paid himself $37,000 as CEO of Tesla but he is worth $10 billion from his shares.

Facts are stubborn thing.

a reply to: SocratesJohnson

No one has said capitalism is evil, other than you.

But perhaps you gain comfort from the ever increasing rate that value has and is flowing to the top. I for one am alarmed mainly because history has shown us that it leads to terrible things.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Edumakated

The top ten largest companies in the world are 90% not in the US.
The CEO of Arcelormittal the largest steel manufacturer in the world based out of Luxembourg makes about 1.4 million a year. Their average worker brings in over 70k a year.

All the top energy leaders in the industry have CEO's making well under a million a year. The China National petroleum CEO only brings in about 110k a year.
Toyota's CEO only shovels in about 1.2mill. While GM's CEO racks in over 28 Million. Guess those bailouts went to good use!

Walmarts CEO brings in more than 30 Million a year, yet their average worker makes 18k a year.
I know it's skilled trade Vrs retail worker, but, at the end of the day it just goes to show the divide from what a CEO in the states sees as what they deserve to what everyone else does.

Four of the Top 10 largest companies by revenue are US companies.... Walmart, Berkshire, Apple, and Exxon.

The Fortune Global 500 top 10 list by annual revenue
WalMart Stores (US) - $485.8bn
State Grid (China) - $315.1bn
Sinopec (China) - $267.5bn
China Natural Petroleum (China) - $262.6bn
Toyota Motor (Japan) - $254.7bn
Volkswagen (Germany) - $240.2bn
Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands) - $240bn
Berkshire Hathaway (US) - $223.6bn
Apple (US) - $215.6bn
Exxon Mobil (US) - $205bn

The Chinese companies are basically the government since they are state owned, so I don't even know if I'd really count those but whatever.

Further, 132 of the Fortune 500 GLOBAL are US companies. So 26% are based in the US. The next closest is China, but again, is that really apples to apples.

Rank Country Companies
1 United States 132
2 China 109
3 Japan 51
4 France 29
5 Germany 29
6 United Kingdom † 21
7 South Korea 15
8 Netherlands † 15
9 Switzerland 13
10 Canada 11

Regarding your Toyota to GM comparison. While it is true he only got paid $1.1 million, he controls shares worth $250 million. His family owns Toyota. CEO of GM, Mary Barra made $28 million, but I'd be surprised if she owns $250 million worth of GM shares. From 2014 article on Mary Barra:

Barra's 2014 salary was $1.6 million. With stock awards, some of which are based on meeting performance targets, she is expected to have total compensation for last year of about $14.4 million.

So again, her salary was relatively low but the bulk of comp comes from stock options based on performance. I don't have time to find the 10ks but I did find an article where she was awarded about 75,000 shares.... GM at the time was at $37 a share, so call it $3 million.

Elon Musk only paid himself $37,000 as CEO of Tesla but he is worth $10 billion from his shares.

Facts are stubborn thing.

Yes assets (stocks) are income just as healthcare insurance is compensation.

I am more curious as to why a Harvard study deviates so far from BLS records?

I imagine one of them cherry picked numbers to create a study that conformed to a preconceived bias. BLS rolls like that, no?

a reply to: peck420

Valid point, the media can and does give different info and it does keep us guessing.

I think you'll find that a sizable portion of American's are more than happy to have this insane discrepancy in pay just so long as immigrants are deported and gay marriage/abortion is verboten.

I don´t know where this 12:1 for germany comes from.
Decades ago the company presidents, managing directors, CEOs made 20 times more than a average worker, now it is 330 times.

The 5th of January is the "Fat (Greedy) Cat Day" in germany, in 5 days the "big ones" have made the money an average worker, that does all the significant and necessary work, needs a whole year for.

And everyday you hear that managers, directors, CEOs, those in suits and ties, get bonuses of millions. For making a loss over years, like Deutsche Bank this week. Or VW, the VW greedy ones get bonuses for their criminal acting over the last years.

Since around 10-20 years real wage growth for the average workers is non-existant in germany, while CEOs and Co get more and more. Like Siemens for example. Closes down it´s plant to produce turbines in (eastern! that could be the reason) germany, saying that nobody needs turbines anymore, nobody orders them anymore. But Trump promises tax benefits for corporate groups and Joe Kaeser sucks up to TrumptyDumpty and says that he will create a plant in the "U"SA, for creating turbines. Question is, is he fooling Trump or the german workers? Doesnt matter`anyway, millions of bonuses are safe for such people. Even if they make losses and mistakes en masse. Even when they couldn´t do what they are payed for.

But people are fed to the backteeth, you can feel it, the people are angry, being used as hard working low wage slaves. Unions betrayed the german workers over the last decades, were sleeping with the companies, the employers. But that seems to change now, at least a bit. There are strikes again now. On wednesday there begin 24hour strikes of the metal workers(that are member of the IGM union).

I swear i can smell the riots and see suits and ties hanging on trees, if nothing changes the next months. We have to copy everything that comes from the overseas, but i guess we don´t let it go so far like in the "U"S oligarchy, people will go postal before! I am even just waiting for a new RAF(Red Army Fraction), would be just the consequences of that greedy behaviour of the rich and lazy suits and ties.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Most Americans are the ones on the lower side and I think when properly informed would see the folly in the present unsustainable system.

The illegal/abortion theme was not part of the thread, while both can have an effect on pay I did not address them.

originally posted by: seasonal
What can I say, today I was in a graph mood.

What could be the reasoning for the pay disparage for CEO pay the chart from 2013 shows? Are the CEO's of the US more talented than all the others? Or are the US workers so crappy that the 472:1 ratio is perfect? (A Harvard CEO pay estimate is 373:1).

As this graph shows the corporate profits have substantially risen while worker share of the "pie" has sharply declined. The graph also shows that this is a fairly recent occurrence. This is a very dangerous trend.

hbswk.hbs.edu...

And then we have lobbying.
The graph shows that pharma is the top dog when it comes to lobbying. This may be the very reason many can't afford health care. Pharma costs removes large amounts of money from the privatized socialist system pool of money to pay the very very high pharma costs. This effects US workers as the US is #1 in healthcare costs with little in the way setting the US system apart from any other industrialized nation besides cost.

This could quite possibly be the most concerning bit of info that I have seen today. The growing divide is usually accompanied by an opposite event to correct the inequality, and usually not pleasant. As a fairly successful small business owner I see a problem with how the money is being divided, and I can't see any rationalization to explain this.

This is one of the regulatory frame works that is contributing to economic inequality and stagnation in wage increases. The income of ceo's and other wealthy people have increased in the US, but not for other classes.

But predictably most conservatives and neo liberals claim saying so is class warfare and Muh socialism. The only class warfare being performed is powerful elites controlling our system and extracting most of wealth from everyone else.