Why does it seem so few will accept the obvious?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
'The passages are straight to within 0.013 in. per 100 ft.'

'The Great Pyramid is the most accurately aligned structure in existence and faces true north with only 3/60th of a degree of error. The position of the North Pole moves over time and the pyramid was probably exactly aligned at one time.'

'

i'm trying to envision the highly advanced tolerances, to 0.013 inches
and the fable of not being able to slip paper between the joints of the blockworks.

i kinda think there's a lot of exaggeration between the actual ruins and how precise & elegant it was 'artistically described' as being, when in its completed unweathered, pristine condition.

its kinda like some folks at any construction site...they can 'talk' a house to grand completion, but it takes us sweat & muscle grunts to build it !

the answer will continue to be a mystery...the Egyptians say the (mythic god?)
THOTH brought them the thrice knowledge, now, that could mean a man person or the body-of-thought&knowledge that flourished then deteriorated because of 'entropy'.

there is the astronomy & astrology-religion angle to prod men to heroic deeds

Originally posted by Byrd
...I should point out (as has been pointed out lots of times) that the pyramids weren't built by slave labor. They were built by Egyptian farmers and and laborers and craftsmen.

They left a lot of their writing in the extensive city that was built to house them. There's no other writing (like Hebrew) and all the artifacts recovered (including broken sandals and pots, etc) are Egyptian.

Yes, this is what I was taught in schools. Why would the Egyptians use slave labor when they could put their own people to work building pyramids, government jobs give great benefits. I don't think the Egyptians or whoever else were outsourcing for the Giza Pyramids.

What really blows my mind is the lack of credit people give the ancients. You folks do realize, the ancients werent stupid, low brow yokels with little more on their minds that food, sleep, and mating.

Id wager the ancients were ALOT more intelligent than people are today. Because they didnt have distractions and machines to occupy their minds or do their work for them, they had to be far more clever, resourceful, innovative, and precise than we do. It was survival. They had not the luxuries of refridgeration, genetic engineering, ect, so they had to make the best with what they had.

The construction of the pyramids is really no mystery to me. In my opinion, their construction was by no means beyond the capabilities of the ancients. They certainly paid far more attention to detail than do we. Thus achieving these great buildings would have been a very impressive task, certain to inspire the awe of friends and foes alike, but nothing the indistrious, clever, and proud Egyptians couldnt handle.

The Sphinx now, is a different story, mainly because of the odd dating, not so much the structure itself. That itself is quite interesting and odd.

Stonehenge is another wonder I puzzle at, as are the ice age villages of northern Russia, some 50,000 years old, during a time when humans supposedly were still grunting and cavorti ng in caves, belching and extincting wolly mamoths.

Bu the pyramids seem an obvious wonder of the great ingenuity of the ancients.

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
'The passages are straight to within 0.013 in. per 100 ft.'

'The Great Pyramid is the most accurately aligned structure in existence and faces true north with only 3/60th of a degree of error. The position of the North Pole moves over time and the pyramid was probably exactly aligned at one time.'

'

i'm trying to envision the highly advanced tolerances, to 0.013 inches
and the fable of not being able to slip paper between the joints of the blockworks.
i kinda think there's a lot of exaggeration between the actual ruins and how precise & elegant it was 'artistically described' as being, when in its completed unweathered, pristine condition.
its kinda like some folks at any construction site...they can 'talk' a house to grand completion, but it takes us sweat & muscle grunts to build it !
the answer will continue to be a mystery...the Egyptians say the (mythic god?)
THOTH brought them the thrice knowledge, now, that could mean a man person or the body-of-thought&knowledge that flourished then deteriorated because of 'entropy'.

I kinda think you oughta look into it in more detail. There are only a couple of the original casing blocks left at the base of the great pyramid...the rest are now a part of many of Cairo's buildings, long ago stripped off of the pyramid. These remaining few are set so tightly together, that the description of not being able to fit a piece of paper between them is not a fable as you 'kinda think'. It is a very many times confirmed observation.
I agree with you that the construction is a mystery.
As for envisioning what it looked like with all the casing blocks in place...one only need extrapolate based on the existing few casing blocks, and a relatively accurate picture would likely be created.

All the jazz about "pyramid inches" "pyramid cubits" etc etc is great for a laugh. Give me any structure of any proportions, and allow me to use any system of measurement I choose (and then fudge the length of that measure just a little bit) then let me change measures in mid equasion (input in inches, output in miles) and I will find advanced mathematics encoded in your local grocery store.
If you torture the facts, they will confess.

I wonder if we have any information on the Egyptian system of weights and measures. If that were applied strictly, I doubt we would find anything encoded in the pyramids dimensions.

The construction methods, as Byrd points out, are apparently documented to some extent, not in a grandoise and somewhat questionable way either. If I understand correctly, it's not a tomb inscription that says "here lies the pharoh who built on the pryamids with one hand while defeating tens of thousands of enemy warrior with the other hand. What I heard described was much more mundane and honest sounding, something like "More rocks arrived up today. I'm gonna have the new guy stack them now."
It may be true that the know-how was lost, but not because it was ultra high tech. All it would take is for a couple of successive pharohs to either not want, not deserve, or not have the time/resources for a pyramid, and pretty soon the engineers would be like, "Well, erm, we could try Pharoh... the thing is that our professor, and his professor, and his professor, etc who taught us this stuff all had never actually practiced the technique. Some of us are afraid the pyramid might come out bent or something wierd like that."
It's not like computer software, where the average joe can do it himself and the technology proliferates and advances. It is not for everyone, it's hard to do, and it doesn't get used very often, so it stagnates. Surely you've seen how pathetic things always turn out when the History Channel tries to recreate Roman catapults or Greek Fire, etc? It's the same principle at work there.

Last thing: www.theforgottentechnology.com
One man, making creative use of leverage by way of levers, fulcrums, counterweights, and pulleys is able to manipulate 10-ton stone blocks ALONE. He has shown how a single person generating one half horsepower can vertically lift stones of great weight.
With a crew in the single-thousands, the Pyramids could be built in 20 or 30 years without having to work overtime, and that is assuming that beasts of burden are not used to reduce the need for manpower.

This may not be exactly how the Egyptians did it, but it proves that with very basic engineering principles applied creatively, they can could do what they did without lasers and antigravity etc.

OK, I lied, that wasn't the last thing- I've heard "laser precision" mentioned. Is that to say that a laser beam bends .013 inches every hundred feet? In boot camp we used to have to line up our beds to absolutely perfect specifications. We were fresh out of lasers, so we just pulled a cord really tight, and that gave us a nice straight line, but probably a lot more likely than a laser to error by a hundred of an inch or so. I'm assuming that if "string technology" is available to a bunch of high-struck teenagers in boot camp, the ancient egyptians wouldn't have had too much trouble figuring it out either.

All the jazz about "pyramid inches" "pyramid cubits" etc etc is great for a laugh. Give me any structure of any proportions, and allow me to use any system of measurement I choose (and then fudge the length of that measure just a little bit) then let me change measures in mid equasion (input in inches, output in miles) and I will find advanced mathematics encoded in your local grocery store.
If you torture the facts, they will confess.

I wonder if we have any information on the Egyptian system of weights and measures. If that were applied strictly, I doubt we would find anything encoded in the pyramids dimensions.
The Vagabond

Well it is clear that you have a very different view of this subject than I. The system of measure refered to as Pyramid inches is a scientifically deduced scale that was arrived at by measuring and recording hundreds of ancient Egyptian structures lengths, height, width, passages, stone sizes, etc. and finding a unit of measure that was common to them all and was the most likely solution. It could be wrong, granted, but there has been no researcher that has offered any system of measure that is anywhere near as plausible. I have no need to convince you of its validity, since the information is there for the reading. Numerous meticulous scientists have confirmed these findings as being correct.
The few points I mentioned do not scratch the surface of the abundance of anomalous and unexplained qualities the Giza Pyramid exhibits.
Tell me this, if you wish, was the placement of the complex on the exact point that is the center of the planets entire dry land surface just a lucky fluke? I suggest that before you say you doubt that this is the case, you do some research on it, as you will find that the geological survey that determined the center point had no idea where it would be, and no interest whatever in pyramids, ancient Egypt, etc. They just published their findings, and it was quickly recognized that their conclusion just happened to point right to the Giza complex.
The crystallinks website has a good starter list of points that is not nearly complete, but is enough to keep any critic busy for a while rebutting them.

What sort of research is involved in seeing through a logical fallacy? The equations are not consistent in the use of measures, they use an unproven system of measure, and because their are small imperfections in the construction, the only possibilities are that 1. "Intended" specifications have been assumed and used to fudge the numbers. or 2. The numbers we get from the equations are complete accidents resulting from errors in construction.

The few points I mentioned do not scratch the surface of the abundance of anomalous and unexplained qualities the Giza Pyramid exhibits.
Tell me this, if you wish, was the placement of the complex on the exact point that is the center of the planets entire dry land surface just a lucky fluke?

I thought this was already answered earlier. If that's the case very well though, because surprise surprise they built the Pyramids where they lived. If they had gone out of their way to build it out in the boondocks really far from the Nile, that would be curious, but instead they seem to have built it right next to where they were living, possibly as a way to keep farmers working during the flood of the Nile. The pyramids aren't in any way related to the amount of land on that meridian, so there's really no meaning to it- just trivia. It's like saying "Isn't it strange that Los Angeles just happens to have been built North of Mexico but South of Canada?". Well yeah it's true but it's not meaningful- and it's not like anyone took any special effort to make it that way. It probably is in fact a coincidence.

The crystallinks website has a good starter list of points that is not nearly complete, but is enough to keep any critic busy for a while rebutting them.

So the goal is to keep people busy, not to actually prove anything? I'm not saying the pyramids are devoid of any significance. That seems like a lot of work to do for no reason at all. I'm only suggesting that they do not imply any tremendous amount of high-tech knowledge.
The pyramids prove an understanding of astronomy, sound engineering capabilities at a fairly early stage in human history, and a certain level of social sophistication. It's very impressive that at such an early time a civilization assemble a labor force to carry out a complex task with a high degree of precision, and do so in a way that seems to be somehow inspired by astronomical observations. The better part of the world (if I am not mistaken) was still in what might be called a barbarian state- not producing much of anything at all, and here come the Egyptians with this. Very impressive.
The problem comes when we start talking about coded information about the size of and distance to the sun, the geographical layout of the entire earth, etc etc. Such things, if true, would seem to imply that during what we call prehistory there were very advanced civilizations who know a very great deal about both the Earth and the solar system, and that as they were fading these civilizations left clues about their knowledge. A claim which would imply such incredible things would have to be backed by fairly incredible evidence. Equations which make leaps of logic (such as doing the equation in a hypothetical ancient measure but then giving the answer in a much larger modern measure) are not exactly strong evidence.

The height of the pyramid times 10**9 = avg. distance to sun. [5813.2355653 * 10**9 * (1 mi / 63291.58 PI) = 91,848,500 mi

How could the ancient egyptians have encoded a message that would yield the answer in our miles? Did they have a time machine?

[edit on 12-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

I will agree to disagree. The research that I have done has convinced me that there indeed was a very advanced prehistoric civilization. The cataclysm of 9 500 BC which caused planetwide extinctions totally obliterated it. There is still much evidence that exists, though it is dismissed as being 'impossible'. The Giza Pyramid is, imho, the most obvious proof of all.
The reason that the measures convert into your miles is due to the 'coincidental' quality that all major ancient systems of measure are factors of each other. This is cuz they all were derived from a common source, imho.
The many unsolved feats of logistics, unexplained engineering, and advanced global and astronomical knowledge which is incorporated into the design of this as yet irreproducable work of constructive genius are all clear and unmistakable evidence that the ancients were very advanced, and also, that they either knew or suspected that they were doomed....so they left as big and complex and exquisite a calling card as they were capable of. This one pile of stones contains their story, and shows, to me, that we have a ways to go yet before we are as capable as they were.
You do not agree, and I respect that. My conclusions are based on years of reading and study that is different than yours, so it is not surprising that we differ. Peace to you, Vagabond

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I will agree to disagree. The research that I have done has convinced me that there indeed was a very advanced prehistoric civilization. The cataclysm of 9 500 BC which caused planetwide extinctions totally obliterated it. There is still much evidence that exists, though it is dismissed as being 'impossible'. The Giza Pyramid is, imho, the most obvious proof of all.

I accept your proposal that we agree to disagree. I understand where you are coming from because about a year ago I would have agreed completely with you.

The many unsolved feats of logistics, unexplained engineering, and advanced global and astronomical knowledge which is incorporated into the design of this as yet irreproducable work of constructive genius

Forgive me for kicking a dead horse one last time. I think that it is reproduceable, but it would take over sixty two million man hours, at the wages of your average tradesman where I come from that would make the manpower cost alone over 1.7 billion dollars. No wonder that it hasn't been recreated- nobody wants to spend 1.7 billion dollars to have over 1,000 men work full time for 30 years on something that wont make them any money when its done.
That just goes to show you what a bad arse the pharoh was. People did all that stuff just because he said so .


Anyway it's been fun and I'm glad that it's not the end of the world that we disagree. If all disagreements on ATS were this pleasant I'd be even more contrary than I already am.

I thank you for your compliment, and I feel the same about your posts. Also, your projected labour estimate sounds plausible to me. I cannot say that the physical work would take longer than that. My wonder is more at the design, ie. each tier a different height, each block a different width, making the whole structure extremely resistant to earthquakes. The method used to raise the blocks is still not conclusively answered, though levers, pivots, and counterweights are my favorite methods. A ramp would have to have been 3 times the volume of the pyramid itself, if straight, and if it wound its way up the outside, would have made keeping the corners true very hard with the base buried. But imagine, if one block was dropped...the delay that would cause due to the unique size of each block.
And why make it so perfecty square? Many times more so than the naked eye could notice, and in fact hundreds of times more so than the average modern building. What gain was there for such an immense increase in difficulty? I still have many questions like this that have not been answered to my satisfaction....maybe I'm just too picky, or too spend too much time doubting...

I think if the pyramid had been found with air-con systems, electrically powered lighting, CCTV etc we could undoubtedly say that the ancient Egyptians had a "hi-tech" civilisation. As it is it is just a big pile of stones. It maybe is engineered to very exacting standards, and would have taken an enormous amount of work to build, but.....it is still a load of stones piled on top of each other.

If they had a "hi-tech" society then why didn't they leave any hi-tech artefacts at all? Where are the circuit boards and combustion engines?

[edit on 12/3/05 by FatherLukeDuke]

coincidence is a syncronicity from the highest order.

as for finding inventions that built the pyramids..
the power that we can harness from natures energy..with out tools,is very amazing...we are the tool,the instrument...no tools needed..you can lift,tear down,stop things......................................................................
with out tools,with out your hands..
first you must see it and the rest is knowledge you must find on your own.

which is the challenge because most think inside of a box.
happy visioning

Why does their civilization necessarily have to make the same discoveries as us? They may have had a very different path and a different high tech result. The vedas very exhaustively describe tons of high tech gear.
A global cataclysm and 10 000 years can really take a toll on circuit boards, if they had any.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Why does their civilization necessarily have to make the same discoveries as us? They may have had a very different path and a different high tech result.

I would agree, civilisations may not make the same discoveries as us. What different "hi-tech" stuff do you think the Egyptians possed then, and what physical evidence is there for it?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIIIWell it is clear that you have a very different view of this subject than I. The system of measure refered to as Pyramid inches is a scientifically deduced scale that was arrived at by measuring and recording hundreds of ancient Egyptian structures lengths, height, width, passages, stone sizes, etc. and finding a unit of measure that was common to them all and was the most likely solution.

The Egyptian ruler:


Middle Kingdom wooden rod fragments from Lahun and Abydos
New Kingdom wooden and stone rods placed in elite burials, some inscribed, some gifts from king
Late Period inscribed stone rods deposited in temples as offerings

Listen to us. This constant debate is the real reason, we havent found the truth. Still wondering which one of us is the "Rightous" one. You gotta face it, there are numerous things in the world that cannot be explained in the thousands of years that we've been here. And the reasons for their mystery still remain. Because we are still trying to "Out-DO" one another instead of working together. Remember we all use a "hole in the ground" the same way.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Why does their civilization necessarily have to make the same discoveries as us? They may have had a very different path and a different high tech result.

I would agree, civilisations may not make the same discoveries as us. What different "hi-tech" stuff do you think the Egyptians possed then, and what physical evidence is there for it?

imho, the pyramid is the physical evidence, more than enough to consume a lifetime of study.
I have never found answers, that is my whole point. I want to know, and I dont know. And somehow, that fact gets forgotten and I am often asked that same question. At least 4 times now....lol
My reply is this, the whole reason I post these messages is in the hope of learning more kernels of info that I can use to postulate an answer, I am in search of one, not in possession of one.
I do get the odd new little nugget too, I got one about Clinton today....unrelated of course.

my opinion ,i think we go wrong by trying to explain..there is an awful lot i know and understand,thou not in word,more so through vision and feeling..
observations and letting life unfold before me....thou not in word i understand much..like all of you ..here and now trying to find words,for words our the power of the reality that we have created for us...the power of the word...
i wish words were not found by way of eating magic mushrooms back in nubian days (not sure where that word came from)presumerian....why couldnt it have been only a silent knowledge,the power of silence.an understanding with out words...tooooo much noise on these sites..the world is mad..do i sound like a fool because i speak..rather than the wise man who had something to say..
as for high tech.in the ole days...long before the catylsm...dont ya think we found it..dont ya think we have it..just because we cant find these circuit boards from our perception..
they had no plastics..crystals,stones,metals like copper etc..dimensions...for some reason numbers have a great role in it..god in numbers..1 0
sound...can we unearth sound from the past...vibrations..
the mind,the soul the spirit,the consiousness the collective...the void
visions focus intent dreams earth energy grid..

i am losing myself here and probably allof you..

just wanted to say as you can tell

we all look through our own keyhole

a cat with out a grin oh my said alice

the world is as we dream it.

what about those little balls that were made by someone/thing..Nasa said they had to be made in space,because in gravity we could not/can not make them perfectly balanced...
and they spin..even enclosed in a case where sound/vibe cant effect them..
found in precabrian rock layers..
what about the things that look like atlantean vases with copper on them.look like big batteries..from 93000 yrs ago.
what about these stone chambers and megalithic sites around the world on power spots..at the intersection of a holy cross..prbably really lost you...

aaaaaaaaaaaah we are all lost cause we are looking to dam hard and our retinas are creating this image with our reasoning mind..#ing apple from the garden of eden...it was poison...oh i am mad

Originally posted by greenmansmind
what about those little balls that were made by someone/thing..Nasa said they had to be made in space,because in gravity we could not/can not make them perfectly balanced...
and they spin..even enclosed in a case where sound/vibe cant effect them..
found in precabrian rock layers..

I don't know about the other stuff, but those little balls are a hoax. I've seen pictures of them, and they have flaws obvious to the naked eye. There is also no evidence that they were found in layers of ancient rock or that they were tested by NASA.

As to the pyramid. I simply don't see anything about it that shows the Egyptians had any technology other than what is attributed to them by "mainstream" history. It may be an amazing feat of engineering and construction, but that's it. People point out how "square" the base is, but this could easily be built this exact using pumb-lines, which are hardly "hi-tech".