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Setting a precedent, (Trump haters, tell me if I'm wrong here)

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posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:26 AM
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originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: network dude

No reevaluation required. He is what he is for all to see. You hold him accountable, or you don't. You hold the Presidency to a higher standard, or you don't. You value things other than money, or you don't. Trump is someone who is grossly unfit to hold the office of the President. His personal characteristics alone should exempt him.

I would also like to hear from you, that in the event Mueller finds money laundering and whatever other criminal behavior, that you will accept those findings? Or will you continue to say "but Hillary"? Hillary Clinton has been the subject of the greatest witch hunt ever, and yet you reject those repeated findings and endorse the continuation of her harassment.

If Mueller finds criminal behavior, will you accept that? Would you still support him?


It depends on what if anything is found. If you look here you see that I am willing to accept Trump being guilty, it would piss me off, but I would accept it. I honestly don't get that vibe from any on your side. The goal posts get moved, and no matter what, Trump is guilty of something.

I hope that the next election has some valid choices, and to be honest, I'd like to see more people who aren't career politicians run. I think the shakeup with Trump has proven that if he can make this work, then most folks with some sense could handle it and likely make it look good. I don't think he is stupid, or some drooling retard as most seem to imply. I think he is a narcissist who thinks he can help the country. And his Ego apparently needs the stroking.

To not give him credit for winning when the game was obviously rigged against him would be disingenuous, even if you hate him to eternity.

I'm just tired of seeing the left pretending that all the slime from their side isn't a problem. Crimes are being committed, and the ones who should be dealing with those crimes, are the one's actually committing them, and you wonder why nobody is going to jail. It frightens me to think that you and your side don't see this.




posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: angeldoll


I will accept the findings of the Mueller investigation inso far as money laundering and collusion. But, know that I will always find fault with his flip-flopping, his hysterical little tantrums, his immorality, immaturity, bigotry, racism and lies. Mueller can't absolve him from that.

Therein lies the problem.
  • hysterical little tantrums - like other Presidents haven't had those... like every human on the planet hasn't had those. I could give you ten-to-one examples (quantitatively and qualitatively) of Trump's detractors throwing temper tantrums.
  • immorality - that is a personal opinion, by definition, and therefore inherently subjective.
  • immaturity - again, a personal opinion and subjective.
  • bigotry - examples, please? And I don't want to hear what he supposedly said according to unspecified sources... tell me what bigoted actions he has taken.
  • racism - examples, please? And I don't want to hear what he supposedly said according to unspecified sources... tell me what discriminatory actions he has taken.
  • lies - please quantify how Trump tells more lies than other people. Comprehend when you are making the list, that there is a difference between defining details and lies, between adjusting position to reflect new information and lies, and promises that are later found to be impossible and lies. Lies are intentional misrepresentations of truth as known at the time.
It would be more honest of you to simply state "I don't like Trump" than to embarrass yourself with unsubstantiated/unsubstantiable name-calling.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: network dude


Now, I know this is wrong, and I know those who oppose Trump think they have some moral duty to bypass rules and law, for the greater good of removing him from office.

Then,
What the hell is the point of this thread? you have just criminalised everybody anyway, it's just like those bloody chemtrail threads that were supposed to discuss something, but only from the point of view as dictated by you.

So to reality,
The only one who has incriminated Trump vociferously...is Trump himself with that goddam big trap of his, using himself as the template for blaming everybody else...D'yuh get it yet?



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:48 AM
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originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: network dude


Now, I know this is wrong, and I know those who oppose Trump think they have some moral duty to bypass rules and law, for the greater good of removing him from office.

Then,
What the hell is the point of this thread? you have just criminalised everybody anyway, it's just like those bloody chemtrail threads that were supposed to discuss something, but only from the point of view as dictated by you.

So to reality,
The only one who has incriminated Trump vociferously...is Trump himself with that goddam big trap of his, using himself as the template for blaming everybody else...D'yuh get it yet?


This isn't about Trump yet. This is about the blatant crimes that are being committed and NOBODY seems to care. Now if you can tell me that destroying evidence isn't really a crime, we can have that talk, but as if now, you aren't saying that, just doing the usual hand waving while yelling "But Trump!!!!!".



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:50 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

I'm not embarresting myself, you are, (if anyone can see your face behind those enormous blinders you wear) and I strongly resent the implication that every thing I've said is subjective.
Am I going to sit here all morning and search for examples to "prove" my descriptive adjectives? Why would I do that? It's common knowledge to anyone who is not so partisan and completely immersed in their own bubble.
It is YOU at this point, who needs to give examples of his morality, honesty, maturity, calm and collective thoughtful tweets, and show that he is not a racist or bigot, which are not obviously scripted.

Most assuredly, it will be you spending more time on google than I would need to.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: network dude

That was a thoughtful post and I want to respond, but it will have to be later. Headed to the car and can't post.






posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: network dude


This isn't about Trump yet. This is about the blatant crimes that are being committed and NOBODY seems to care.

Youv'e just said it..."it isn't about Trump...yet

The opposite to what is the reality, that Trump is a crook, long before he took over, and all through his political campaign, and even now as a President..end of.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: network dude

I don't like the guy. But I believe rule of law should be held to the highest accountability and it should not be usurped just to remove someone from office.

The government protects it's own. There is, I'm sure, dirty laundry that has never been aired...and we will never discover. Back door deals and shady dealings...all business as usual.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 11:28 AM
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a reply to: angeldoll


I'm not embarresting myself, you are...

I guess you consider asking one to back their allegations is embarrassing. I don't.


Am I going to sit here all morning and search for examples to "prove" my descriptive adjectives? Why would I do that?

You wouldn't... because it is not possible to prove subjective statements and there is no proof to the direct allegations.

That was the point.


It is YOU at this point, who needs to give examples of his morality, honesty, maturity, calm and collective thoughtful tweets, and show that he is not a racist or bigot, which are not obviously scripted.

It is not the accused who carries the burden of proof; it is the accuser. But, you have already given me one example of a tantrum, in the very post I am responding to. Thank you.

Again, it is a perfectly valid statement to say "I don't like Trump" or "I don't trust Trump." That's fine, and completely your prerogative. The only part I disagree with you on is the blatant, unsubstantiated name-calling. It is childish, immature, and shows a lack of self-control IMHO, much more so than anything Trump has tweeted.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: network dude



For one thing, you don't hear Hillary, screaming "fake news", as trump does about everything negative about him. If need be they should investigate her again. Like I have always said.

Just because I hate trump, doesn't mean I love Hillary. She is smarter, more diplomatic, and would have been the better option, plain and simple.


I cant stand listening to trump lie, over and over....day after day. The man is toxic 10 fold over Hillary.




Here he is talking about babies.




My gosh people! (joke, clearly a mistake on his part)





posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: network dude


Now, I know this is wrong, and I know those who oppose Trump think they have some moral duty to bypass rules and law, for the greater good of removing him from office.


Bypass rules and law? How so? Other than complaining and pointing out how unfit he is for office, most are just waiting for the Mueller investigation results. If he's a criminal, that will tell the tale, if he isn't, the complaining about how legally and morally unfit he is, will continue, as each day brings a new example.



And if for some reason, the Muller investigation shows nothing wrong on Trumps' side, you will all just accept that and wait patiently for the next election? I'd like to hear the answer to that and see it in writing.


Yes, I don't have any desire to go after Trump if a Republican like Mueller finds there has been no malfeasance. Despite my dislike of the man on every front, I trust a consummate professional like Mueller to get to the bottom of it one way or another, and I have zero desire to delve into 'fringe' conspiracies if his investigation turns up zilch.

I trust you would be as equally accepting of Mueller's findings if it shows some malfeasance on Trump's part however.....
edit on 04pm18fpmMon, 22 Jan 2018 12:37:28 -0600America/ChicagoMon, 22 Jan 2018 12:37:28 -0600 by Wayfarer because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 01:53 PM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

I look forward to the conclusion of his investigation. I will be fine with whatever outcome happens, but if the ones who continue to break the law in broad daylight aren't punished, I will continue to be vocal about it, and hope like hell that everyone else is as well. If the entire GOP is guilty, fry their asses, I don't care. Either the law matters, or it doesn't. And if the laws that are being broken don't matter, they need to be expunged from the books. (IMHO)



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: network dude




So now you have Clinton destroying evidence while under investigation, and you have the FBI doing the same. Does this mean that it's OK to do this now? Can this be a valid defense? Destroying the incriminating stuff, so nothing can be brought to the table but circumstantial evidence.


Have there been indictments and a trial date set. If a crime has been committed isn't that the usual procedure. Destroying evidence is a serious charge.


Are you seriously unaware of any of this. Read the FBI report for crying out loud. It's all very well documented. Indictments? 😂😂😂



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 02:00 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Wayfarer

I look forward to the conclusion of his investigation. I will be fine with whatever outcome happens, but if the ones who continue to break the law in broad daylight aren't punished, I will continue to be vocal about it, and hope like hell that everyone else is as well. If the entire GOP is guilty, fry their asses, I don't care. Either the law matters, or it doesn't. And if the laws that are being broken don't matter, they need to be expunged from the books. (IMHO)


You'll be in the minority.

If Mueller finds Trump not guilty, protests from the leftists.

If Mueller finds Trump guilty? Protests from the pro-Trump crowd.

This investigation is tainted with a partisan stench so regardless of the outcome, there is going to be a large percentage that won't trust the results.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 02:02 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Wayfarer

I look forward to the conclusion of his investigation. I will be fine with whatever outcome happens, but if the ones who continue to break the law in broad daylight aren't punished, I will continue to be vocal about it, and hope like hell that everyone else is as well. If the entire GOP is guilty, fry their asses, I don't care. Either the law matters, or it doesn't. And if the laws that are being broken don't matter, they need to be expunged from the books. (IMHO)


If the law matters for me, it doubly matters for the government.

I don't like the GOP, so have no problem whatsoever seeing whoever fry that needs to fry. it'll hurt the nation for awhile...but the road we were going down was far, far darker. Manning, then Snowden...how many others have been trying to get our attention about what was in store?

The end game needs to be putting a full choker and gimp mask on the NSA. They cannot be allowed to be weaponized if they are going to operate. Otherwise, it just isn't worth any perceived gains.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck


Again, it is a perfectly valid statement to say "I don't like Trump" or "I don't trust Trump." That's fine, and completely your prerogative. The only part I disagree with you on is the blatant, unsubstantiated name-calling. It is childish, immature, and shows a lack of self-control IMHO, much more so than anything Trump has tweeted.


Your personal attacks on me aren't really helping your case, and you don't need to continue telling me what's "okay" for me to say. As far as that goes, rather than your silly personal insults towards me, it's "okay", for you to simply cut it short and say "I don't like you", and leave it at that as you advise me to do. After all, it a "perfectly valid statement".

By the way, your comments are completely subjective. heh.

You have a productive day. I don't like this childish back and forth, so I'm done with it, but you help yourself.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: network dude

Wow, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your honesty, and I do see your conclusions and why you believe them.

Firstly, Please know that I am not speaking for the democratic party, nor am I speaking for the other Democrats on ATS.
Only for myself, as I suggest many of those people would disagree with me, and probably do.

I had a little 'quiz" for myself after I read your post. It was "if Barack O'Bama (who I really liked), had had the personal characteristics of Trump, and by that I mean the foul language, the lies, the immature name-calling, the womanizing, lack of self-restraint, impulsivity, blah, blah, all those things I dislike about Trump, would I then, even though I appreciated and supported his policies, be able to give him my full support?

Then answer is no. For me personally, no. Despite his favorable policies, I could not have supported him, because the other traits would have been too off-putting for me.

I'm glad Trump is helping the economy. I truly am. But we have a myriad of issues to consider, not just that one. So he becomes to me, then, a ONE TRICK PONY, which is good, I guess, but not enough for me personally.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: angeldoll


Your personal attacks on me aren't really helping your case...

I do not see where any of my posts have attacked you, nor have contained personal attacks. All I have done is ask you to provide some evidence of your name-calling. Does childish in your vocabulary cover pointing out childish behavior?

I get that you don't like Trump. That's fine. No issue. Whatsoever. Freedom of Speech, man! I just don't like people spewing the kind of irresponsible labeling that I saw in your post, and I reserve the right to use my freedom of speech to point it out.

If you want to be 'done' with this debate, I suggest you not make unwarranted, unsubstantiated statements that invite responses such as mine. Network dude has started a very good thread IMO, and I would really rather participate in the overall discussion than keep correcting you... but since your tactic of name-calling has become so pervasive, I feel it is my civic duty to start calling it out.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 03:17 PM
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Typical wing nut, make up your own facts to support an argument that doesn’t exist. Works good with the low intellect types ie right wingers, not so much when it comes to people who have no agenda. a reply to: network dude



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: angeldoll

Its more about what he says than what he does.

I get that. My oldest son and my wife are like that (although my wife, after being married to me, has learned to worry less about words). The interesting thing is trying to fully comprehend what that means.

If someone says something even slightly hateful to you...is it akin to physical pain? Do you differentiate hurtful words and hurtful actions?

Im more of an actions kinda guy myself. I think words are wholly irrelevant, beyond possibly setting an expectation for someone (i.e., if they say they'll do it, i expect they'll do it). Otherwise, the only thing I see making any difference is the action itself.

Its neither mans words that drives my primary opinion of them. Its their actions. Neither is really very palatable, truth be known. But as long as Trump is willing to break the intelligence community, im willing to support that effort.




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