Okay. May I hear your Opinion?

The problem is that not only are the Democrats out for themselves, most Republicans are also. You do not go to Washington to serve and get wealthy playing within the rules. So, yes the Dems won't agree with President Trump, and a lot of supposed Republicans will not either. He has stirred the pot and the stink is filling the air. A Lot of people are running scared. It is beginning to sound like they should be.
Mexico will pay for the wall. Maybe not all at once and maybe not by actually writing checks, but they will pay one way or the other. Taxes and tariffs. Yes I think they do not want a wall, because all of the non-Mexicans coming into our Southern border may decide to stay in Mexico! Mexico has a Southern border, why shouldn't WE?

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: 3daysgone
there is no downside to the wall.

it's absolutely terrible for the wildlife.

We need to half ass border security so coyotes and deer can freely cross between a #hole and the states... yeah, that's a reasonable position to take in opposition to the wall... SMH

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Byrd

The problem for Trump is that even the GOP doesnt want to wprk with him.

The problem with Trump is Trump. Basically, people dont lile his mouth. I get the feeling his mouth is a distraction for his hands.

Ha!

I think you've pegged it!

It's interesting that he's managed to alienate the GOP (or at least some of them.) I was afraid that they'd simply roll over and let him do as he wishes (even if it was contrary to the principles of the party.)

a reply to: DBCowboy

Yes, I’m sure if republicans could get rid of elections they would. Except for republicans.

a reply to: Byrd

Trump is fighting the uphill battle against the establishment, among a few other uphill battles.

Once I saw the #resist movement seem to take root on both sides of the aisle last February, I knew we were in for a rough ride. The typical support the party line gave the president was not existent.

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: 3daysgone
there is no downside to the wall.

it's absolutely terrible for the wildlife.

They need to be documented too.

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: 3daysgone
there is no downside to the wall.

it's absolutely terrible for the wildlife.

we could built a moisture collecting fence so before they turn back they can refill their water jugs?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
We need to half ass border security so coyotes and deer can freely cross between a #hole and the states... yeah, that's a reasonable position to take in opposition to the wall... SMH

i generally find animals more pleasant than people.

a reply to: Byrd

Because that won't solve the problem. Social policies - and policies that allow for people who can come in and fill jobs that we need (like road work or field work) - are more effective.

The wall would definitely slow down illegals coming through.

Those aren't physical walls. The proposed border wall is to be a physical wall. And the one around the White House is only a compound wall that's been breached many times. Can you give me an example of a physical wall around a country that works?

You are acting as if walls don't keep things out. Try to walk through a wall of a house. That is proof that a walls work.

all-that-is-interesting.com...

Spain’s control of these two cities dates back hundreds of years. But it wasn’t until 1995 that Spain built the first modern fence — with funding from the EU –with the specific goal of keeping immigrants out. Support for the wall, as well as its expansion, increased in recent years out of ISIS-related fears.

To an extent, the wall has worked. Fewer migrants make it into Spain and the EU from Africa, but a fair amount still make it in by swimming around the border. Unfortunately, many are also simply killed right there in the water.

There ya go. Fewer imigrants make it into Spain, and that is a fence. So there is the proof that Barriers actually help when it comes to illegal immigration.

It takes manpower and resources to get to a spot where there's a breach. If a big bus with tall ladders rolled up to the wall in the middle of the desert and put up ladders, everyone on the bus could be over the wall and gone before responders identified the problem, collected a team, and drove to the site. Ditto knocking a hole in it with dynamite or C4. A coordinated effort by multiple teams would create havoc.

And they still have to get through the wall which would make it harder for them to cross over, as you have demonstrated.

As for "stealthed", people got away via a number of interesting plans, including hiding in regular traffic, overstaying visas (I know one man from Iceland who did this repeatedly... was deported several times for it and still came back. He found an American woman to marry, so his status is less risky now. But he was a repeat offender.)

That is why some countries have prison terms for illegal aliens. Kind of dissuades them from trying it again.

(they don't pay attention to illegals from the area of Canada, apparently.)

They do. I live close to Canada, and I get to talk to the Border Patrol, who thinks Trump is correct about the wall by the way, and they keep a close eye on it.

The wall doesn't address immigrants and travelers from Europe and the Middle East. It only attempts to address people south of our borders. If the problems come from Europe and the Middle East, a wall between us and Mexico does nothing to improve that situation.

If they try to enter illegally from Mexico it will address them head on, which a lot of illegal immigrants coming from Mexico are not from Mexico. So it does improve that situation.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: DBCowboy

Yes, I’m sure if republicans could get rid of elections they would. Except for republicans.

Funny. That is exactly what the DNC did to Bernie. lol You guys.

originally posted by: 3daysgone
Here is what I would like your opinion on.

I think President Trump wanted the government shutdown. The people will be all over congress to get the bill passed, and then Trump will have his wall. It is all speculation of coarse, but with the MSM being what it is today I think it is worth a thought, or at least a lesson in politics.

I am interested in your thoughts about what will happen before the Governments opens back up.

What will be in this new Bill?

I think Daca will make it into the bill. I could be wrong though. I

www.reuters.com...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump and Republican lawmakers were locked in a standoff with Democrats on Saturday over the U.S. government shutdown, with Republicans saying they would not negotiate on immigration until the government is reopened.

Both Republicans and Democrats had dug in during the day, each side blaming the other.

Now I do have a question that I would like an answer to. Why don't the Dem's give President Trump the wall? It will create a tremendous upside for our economy and there is no downside to the wall. It would offer more security whether you like the idea of a wall or not. And, and, and, Trump would agree to the DACA terms. It would be a win for both sides. I know they will not though. It is because they care more about not giving Trump his wall than they do for the people caught up in DACA. Unless you can prove me other wise.

Thx. 3DG

If Congress were interested in doing the people's work, they would just work on the reconciliation process to pass the 2018 US Budget... not be forever kicking the can down the road with these continuing resolutions...

That is Congress' #1 responsibility, the budget... The Trump Admin delivered their 2018 budget proposal in FEB 2017.. Plenty of time for a properly working Congress to debate and hash out a bill that POTUS could sign prior to the end of the FISCAL year, SEP30 2017....

I hope the Trump admin delivers the 2019 Budget in a couple of weeks...

Congress needs to DO IT"S JOB and STOP PLAYING GAMES..

.02

a reply to: JacKatMtn

I agree completely.

The Democrats might as well be called the SFSR with there blatant tactics,they want the votes from DACA,no I think Trump wanted things to go as he planned

You lost me on the reference to chess. I assumed you referenced to "prisoners dilemna" as opposed to a zero-sum game. My focus was of its application to a never-pay-back fiat/debt system.
So what is the prisoners game Trump should be so familiar with?

a reply to: Byrd

Threatening government shutdown has become an annual event regardless who is in office. They should just make it a legal holiday. "Shutdown Day!"

It means nothing.

originally posted by: 3daysgone
a reply to: Byrd

Because that won't solve the problem. Social policies - and policies that allow for people who can come in and fill jobs that we need (like road work or field work) - are more effective.

The wall would definitely slow down illegals coming through.

Not nearly as much as changed social policies would. We've got walls in place now (as the article you linked mentioned) and they don't keep people out.

all-that-is-interesting.com...
Spain’s control of these two cities dates back hundreds of years. But it wasn’t until 1995 that Spain built the first modern fence — with funding from the EU –with the specific goal of keeping immigrants out. Support for the wall, as well as its expansion, increased in recent years out of ISIS-related fears.

The article you linked said that the walls don't work and went on to discuss this in detail. That kinda diminishes your discussion point.

To an extent, the wall has worked. Fewer migrants make it into Spain and the EU from Africa, but a fair amount still make it in by swimming around the border. Unfortunately, many are also simply killed right there in the water.

There ya go. Fewer imigrants make it into Spain, and that is a fence. So there is the proof that Barriers actually help when it comes to illegal immigration.

"To an extent" the article says and then mentions swimming and other access. We'd have the exact same situation but more coastline that is porous (the entire Gulf of Mexico, for example.)

It takes manpower and resources to get to a spot where there's a breach. If a big bus with tall ladders rolled up to the wall in the middle of the desert and put up ladders, everyone on the bus could be over the wall and gone before responders identified the problem, collected a team, and drove to the site. Ditto knocking a hole in it with dynamite or C4. A coordinated effort by multiple teams would create havoc.

And they still have to get through the wall which would make it harder for them to cross over, as you have demonstrated.

In the example I gave, they weren't getting "through" the wall. They were climbing over it.

As for "stealthed", people got away via a number of interesting plans, including hiding in regular traffic, overstaying visas (I know one man from Iceland who did this repeatedly... was deported several times for it and still came back. He found an American woman to marry, so his status is less risky now. But he was a repeat offender.)

That is why some countries have prison terms for illegal aliens. Kind of dissuades them from trying it again.

Oh, he got detained and it didn't stop him. Prison terms simply let the person stay in the country, housed and fed (or so he said. I assumed he knew more about this than I do.)

(they don't pay attention to illegals from the area of Canada, apparently.)

They do. I live close to Canada, and I get to talk to the Border Patrol, who thinks Trump is correct about the wall by the way, and they keep a close eye on it.

I know there's illegal immigration from (and to) Canada and I know the US border agents there have an unpleasant reputation (at least in the experiences of the Canadian artists who are trying to come down to sell wares in trade shows)... but I haven't heard about putting a wall between us and Canada.

The wall doesn't address immigrants and travelers from Europe and the Middle East. It only attempts to address people south of our borders. If the problems come from Europe and the Middle East, a wall between us and Mexico does nothing to improve that situation.

If they try to enter illegally from Mexico it will address them head on, which a lot of illegal immigrants coming from Mexico are not from Mexico. So it does improve that situation.

European and Middle East refugees and immigrants don't come in through Mexico. It's people from Honduras and Central and South America who come in from Mexico. A wall won't keep out potential Middle Eastern terrorists.

originally posted by: bulwarkz
You lost me on the reference to chess. I assumed you referenced to "prisoners dilemna" as opposed to a zero-sum game. My focus was of its application to a never-pay-back fiat/debt system.
So what is the prisoners game Trump should be so familiar with?

a reply to: Byrd

"Prisoner's dilemma" has been studied as a single event game and as a long-term game. Politics (and everything else) is not a single event negotiation... it's a long running game. When you look at the multi-move players dilemma game or a more accurate model of legislative action (the asynchronous moves model) it becomes clear that what is in effect is more like reciprocal cooperation. And Trump doesn't understand this. He has a "my way or the highway" negotiating style.

If you look at the more successful presidents, you will see this same kind of long-term asynchronous long-term prisoners dilemma game. The most effective of them will call powerful politicians into "the room where it happens" (to borrow a line from "Hamilton" and through give and take in this style of negotiations, come to an agreement and then present a united front.

originally posted by: JacKatMtn
I hope the Trump admin delivers the 2019 Budget in a couple of weeks...

Would you care to place a bet on the odds of it happening?

a reply to: Byrd

Not nearly as much as changed social policies would. We've got walls in place now (as the article you linked mentioned) and they don't keep people out.

So just a policy that tells them not to come in would keep them out more than a wall? They are not listening to the policy we have now, what would make them listen to the new policy?
Also there is this.

www.nbcnews.com...

Trump’s border wall models thwart U.S. commandos in tests

So it has that going for it.

The article you linked said that the walls don't work and went on to discuss this in detail. That kinda diminishes your discussion point.

Do you mean like when the said,

To an extent, the wall has worked.

and then they go on to say that it didn't work 100%? Now your being disingenuous.

"To an extent" the article says and then mentions swimming and other access. We'd have the exact same situation but more coastline that is porous (the entire Gulf of Mexico, for example.)

So because there might be ways around the wall, even though the wall will work to an extent, you are against it?

Oh, he got detained and it didn't stop him. Prison terms simply let the person stay in the country, housed and fed (or so he said. I assumed he knew more about this than I do.)

Then he should have been sent to Leavenworth tp do hard time, with hard work. After 20 years, I don't think he would come back. I am also for prison reform.

I know there's illegal immigration from (and to) Canada and I know the US border agents there have an unpleasant reputation (at least in the experiences of the Canadian artists who are trying to come down to sell wares in trade shows)... but I haven't heard about putting a wall between us and Canada.

That is because not as many come through. The southern border and the northern border are two different worlds.

European and Middle East refugees and immigrants don't come in through Mexico. It's people from Honduras and Central and South America who come in from Mexico. A wall won't keep out potential Middle Eastern terrorists.

That is what President Trump was trying to stop when he tried to ban countries that have supported terrorism from entering our country. The same countries that Obama actually banned, but when Trump did it the left went nuts.