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Okay. May I hear your Opinion?

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posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 12:43 AM
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originally posted by: 3daysgone
Here is what I would like your opinion on.

I think President Trump wanted the government shutdown. The people will be all over congress to get the bill passed, and then Trump will have his wall. It is all speculation of coarse, but with the MSM being what it is today I think it is worth a thought, or at least a lesson in politics.

I am interested in your thoughts about what will happen before the Governments opens back up.

What will be in this new Bill?

I think Daca will make it into the bill. I could be wrong though. I
....
Now I do have a question that I would like an answer to. Why don't the Dem's give President Trump the wall? It will create a tremendous upside for our economy and there is no downside to the wall. It would offer more security whether you like the idea of a wall or not. And, and, and, Trump would agree to the DACA terms. It would be a win for both sides. I know they will not though. It is because they care more about not giving Trump his wall than they do for the people caught up in DACA. Unless you can prove me other wise.



I don't think he wanted the shutdown. I think he was playing "negotiating" in the style of his "art of the deal" book. The problem is that his style only works if one negotiator has a big pile of money and the other party is desperate to get some of it. He may think of it as "trimming the government" but what he will find out is that it makes doing things like processing pay checks very difficult.


That's not how governments work. In government, it's closer to what's known as "the prisoner's game" where that kind of hardcore negotiation works against you most of the time. Another result of the government shut-down affected the VERY pricey shindig he planned for this weekend - and he's not interested in using his own money for anything.


If he had flown to Mar-a-Lago as planned, the President would have to reimburse the government for using Air Force One for a political activity despite flying for official business as well.
source


And no, I don't want the wall. It's wasteful, and historically walls have never worked. In some cases we need these migrant workers (I don't see many Americans lining up to pick grapes or do field hand jobs... and a lot of our agriculture relies on manual labor. There are lots of menial jobs that I don't want... and you probably don't either. Yet they need doing and we have economic refugees who are interested in these occupations. Potential immigrants also serve in the US military, and I'm fine with that as well.

What I know as an anthropologist and historian is that countries with closed borders stagnate quickly and fall behind other areas in terms of human rights and economic and global power. Isolationism (taking your cookies and going home) works in the same way as a kid on the playground yelling things at a group that they're going home. Like the kid leaving the playground, the isolationist country then does not have a say in what goes on elsewhere and loses opportunities for allies and partners in play or in business.

There's a meme going around in my (liberal) circles that says there's shrieks of outrage and calls for isolationism and reforms and walls and other measures when an immigrant gets a truck and drives it on a sidewalk and kills 8 people - but nothing is done when an American man gets a hotel room and then kills 58 people and wounds over 200 (over seven times the impact of the New York attack). We have learned to be afraid of anyone not American, but the greatest number of citizen deaths from bombs and other activities (not just guns alone) has been at the hands of our own citizens.

The wall won't cure that.




posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 12:45 AM
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originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: 3daysgone
there is no downside to the wall.


it's absolutely terrible for the wildlife.


That, too. Another reason why I don't want it. Bad for the environment.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 12:56 AM
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I think DACA will expire

Trump is running out the clock. He doesn't even need a first down. The whole think expires in less than 6 mo. The sit down was literally for the TV cameras.

The republicans NEED the govt to shut down. Because right now, the threat has been the Dems' main card to play. And the bad vibes from the public will be focused on them. DACA is deeply unpopular with the segment of America that actually votes. And the Dems are getting portrayed as breaking the government for the sake of illegals. And letting CHIP go unfunded.... If you are a minority/DEM voting bloc member, and you watch them break other Americans' welfare for the sake of some other minority, what does that tell you about the security of your OWN benefits? They're not doing it for blacks.... Many poor Black people depend on CHIP; not DACA. I bet it sucks to see that your group is "second tier" to the DEMs.

So the Repubs let the govt close for a week. The pressure mounts on DEMs to cave. Then the threat of the next shutdown isn't really credible. And Reps get a CR with no DACA.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:01 AM
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a reply to: Byrd




And no, I don't want the wall. It's wasteful, and historically walls have never worked. In some cases we need these migrant workers (I don't see many Americans lining up to pick grapes or do field hand jobs... and a lot of our agriculture relies on manual labor. There are lots of menial jobs that I don't want... and you probably don't either. Yet they need doing and we have economic refugees who are interested in these occupations. Potential immigrants also serve in the US military, and I'm fine with that as well.


The wall would provide a lot of jobs. That is not wasteful. Historically walls have been built to keep things out or in and they are very effective. You can't just walk through a wall. That is the first line of defense. Maybe those jobs could be done by people who are on state assistance and don't have a job but can work.




What I know as an anthropologist and historian is that countries with closed borders stagnate quickly and fall behind other areas in terms of human rights and economic and global power. Isolationism (taking your cookies and going home) works in the same way as a kid on the playground yelling things at a group that they're going home. Like the kid leaving the playground, the isolationist country then does not have a say in what goes on elsewhere and loses opportunities for allies and partners in play or in business.


Norway seems to be doing very well and they have very strict border control. Isolationism is when you have nothing to do with other countries, almost like North Korea. Nationalism is far from Isolationism. Nationalism is about putting your countrymen first and doing what is best for your Nation. It is not turning your back on the world, it is simply doing whats best for your country's interest first.




There's a meme going around in my (liberal) circles that says there's shrieks of outrage and calls for isolationism and reforms and walls and other measures when an immigrant gets a truck and drives it on a sidewalk and kills 8 people - but nothing is done when an American man gets a hotel room and then kills 58 people and wounds over 200 (over seven times the impact of the New York attack). We have learned to be afraid of anyone not American, but the greatest number of citizen deaths from bombs and other activities (not just guns alone) has been at the hands of our own citizens.


Nothing is being done about the Las Vegas shooting? The investigation is still ongoing. What else do you want them to do? Of course the greatest amount of deaths will be from people living in this country, because they live in this country together, and a lot of people don't get along with other people. How would letting other's, who come from known terrorist territories, without better back ground checks help with it? It wouldn't.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:12 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant




I think they want that stupid wall, no relief for any of the "Dreamers" (DACA recipients included), an end to all sanctuary city laws, and to deport all illegal immigrants and their families (whether they're legal immigrants, citizens, or not). But that's the long term goal.


I don't think that is what they want. Legal immigrants and citizens? I don't see that at all.




It helps to know that there was a continuing resolution passed at the last minute on Dec 7th which averted a govt shutdown. It got bipartisan support. There was another continuing resolution passed at the last minute on Dec 20-something which also averted a govt shutdown. Democrats initially held out for a DACA fix & CHIP funding then, but eventually they caved. Republican Senator Flake was even led to believe that McConnell would put a DACA bill up for a vote this month before this current continuing resolution "crisis". From this Dec 20th article (HERE):


I don't think the DEMS really care about the Dreamers. They had 8 years to fix it, and nothing. Now it is their top Priority? No. Just something that they are using for a Moral High Ground political maneuver. They really don't care or they would have fixed it when they had the chance.




Sound familiar? This article was a month ago and yet people here are pretending that this is all some new unforseen situation. And surprise surprise, McConnell never held the vote. That's why Democrats are taking a stand this time. 3 continuing resolutions in less than 7 weeks yet Republicans refused to even put it up for a vote. And remember, they've had bipartisan support to pass a CHIP extension since at least last Sept but they've refused to put that up for a vote, either.


Flake is a never Trumper like McCain. He is only worried about opposing President Trump, the Dreamers are just a tool to him.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:33 AM
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a reply to: 3daysgone



I don't think the DEMS really care about the Dreamers. They had 8 years to fix it, and nothing. Now it is their top Priority?

How so? Or have you already forgotten that Republicans have controlled at least one chamber of Congress since the 3rd year of Obama's 1st term? How could Democrats have changed it then? Surely you can see that even when a party controls both chambers of Congress, it's hard to get contentious legislation passed. Yet somehow Democrats were supoosed to do something when controlling one or neither chamber of Congress?

Also, the whole reason the DACA situation is so important now is because Trump rescinded an Obama executive order and placed the March 5th deadline in the first place. That's why Democrats are in a rush to get a fix for it. So your assertion simply doesn't match the facts.

Also, Flake has been pro-Dreamers before Trump was elected, so that assertion doesn't match the facts either. You also didn't address the fact that this is the 3rd continuing resolution "crisis" in 7 weeks, yet Republicans still have refused to negotiate on a DACA fix. Or the fact that there's been bipartisan support for the CHIP program since at least September, yet congressional Republicans refused to put it to a vote in Sept, Oct, Nov, or December. And even though it could pass right now on its own, they're intentionally linking it to this latest continuing resolution in order to force the Dems to pass the CR without a DACA fix.

In short, I'm not buying your arguments at all. I think that Republicans are going to keep pushing continuing resolutions every 3 or 4 weeks until the March 5th deadline passes.
edit on 21-1-2018 by enlightenedservant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:43 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant




How so? Or have you already forgotten that Republicans have controlled at least one chamber of Congress since the 3rd year of Obama's 1st term? How could Democrats have changed it then?


In his first 2 years. Trump is starting his second year now and it is being addressed. No excuses for the Dems.




Also, the whole reason the DACA situation is so important now is because Trump rescinded an Obama executive order and placed the March 5th deadline in the first place. That's why Democrats are in a rush to get a fix for it. So your assertion simply doesn't match the facts.


All that shows is that Trump is forcing the issue to be brought up and something to be done about it. Why didn't Obama fix it in his 2nd year?




Also, Flake has been pro-Dreamers before Trump was elected, so that assertion doesn't match the facts either. You also didn't address the fact that this is the 3rd continuing resolution "crisis" in 7 weeks, yet Republicans still have refused to negotiate on a DACA fix.


That is because President Trump likes to negotiate from a position of power. That is why. He is playing the waiting game because the Dems can't do anything about it. They want to put the Daca in this bill, and as I previously said Trump wants his wall. No wall/ no DACA. Wall/DACA. If Flake cared so much he would be pushing for the wall. Is he?




Or the fact that there's been bipartisan support for the CHIP program since at least September, yet congressional Republicans refused to put it to a vote in Sept, Oct, Nov, or December.


Of coarse they did. Now they are in a position of power from which to negotiate on what will be in the DACA bill.




And even though it could pass right now on its own, they're intentionally linking it to this latest continuing resolution in order to force the Dems to pass the CR without a DACA fix.


I am sure the republicans want to add some pork to it.




In short, I'm not buying your arguments at all.


They are not for sale anyway, they are free.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:53 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: 3daysgone

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: 3daysgone


We won't see DACA until 2019 at the earliest.

Why would the dems give Trump another win?

They (the dems) need something toe campaign against, if they don't, they might lose more seats in 2018.
I too was once a Democrat...My dad and his dad were democrats...They both fought in wars against - progressives...I haven't changed my ideology...The Democrat party has left the farm...I can no longer relate to what the modern Democrat party is pushing...

I hope we may see the reappearing of more Kennedy like dems run for office. They sure have come a long way from ask not what your country can do for you.

That you may never see. The Progressive Liberals have completely taken over The Kennedys' Democratic Party. Thus the Democratic Party will continue becoming irrelevant as time progresses .The real Democrats (as I call them , the True Blue Democrats) are moving towards a conservative (or at least a central) point of view in an attempt to isolate themselves from the madness of the Liberals. This was evidenced in the recent elections starting in 2010 and 2012 and gaining momentum through the Presidential Election .
Spoken from a once Liberal , True Blue Democrat.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 01:58 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog
Wildlife meaning Illegal Immigrants coming into the US illegally ? Violent street gangs , rapists , murderers ? We already had enough of that type of "wildlife" without outside intervention.
You dont put much forethought into some of your posts , do you ?
R , is that you ?


i had the forethought that some idiot was likely to deliberately misconstrue what i'd said and think themselves clever, so there's that, and here you are. i have no idea who R is.

here are some articles about the possible impacts on the ecology and local animals, for naysayers.

www.washingtonpost.com... itory-in-texas/

www.vox.com...

www.bbc.com...



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:08 AM
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originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: Gothmog
Wildlife meaning Illegal Immigrants coming into the US illegally ? Violent street gangs , rapists , murderers ? We already had enough of that type of "wildlife" without outside intervention.
You dont put much forethought into some of your posts , do you ?
R , is that you ?


i had the forethought that some idiot was likely to deliberately misconstrue what i'd said and think themselves clever, so there's that, and here you are. i have no idea who R is.

here are some articles about the possible impacts on the ecology and local animals, for naysayers.

www.washingtonpost.com... itory-in-texas/

www.vox.com...

www.bbc.com...



There will be challenges and obstacles, but it will all work out.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:13 AM
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originally posted by: 3daysgone
a reply to: Byrd




And no, I don't want the wall. It's wasteful, and historically walls have never worked. In some cases we need these migrant workers (I don't see many Americans lining up to pick grapes or do field hand jobs... and a lot of our agriculture relies on manual labor. There are lots of menial jobs that I don't want... and you probably don't either. Yet they need doing and we have economic refugees who are interested in these occupations. Potential immigrants also serve in the US military, and I'm fine with that as well.


The wall would provide a lot of jobs.


Funding drones and training for the Border Patrol would be less invasive and more effective and keep the jobs. The "wall building" jobs will last only as long as the wall is being built... once built, the jobs are lost and they'll reduce the number of border patrol agents.

Job loss, I think.



That is not wasteful. Historically walls have been built to keep things out or in and they are very effective.


Give me examples of ones you think worked. We know that the Great Wall didn't work, nor did the Berlin Wall (I lived in Germany then and heard a lot more about escapes and so forth than you heard about. I also visited East Berlin when I was a child and when the wall was still up.)


You can't just walk through a wall.

It can be torn down, circumvented (we can't build a wall around the entire US), flown over, tunneled under... and stealthed through.


Maybe those jobs could be done by people who are on state assistance and don't have a job but can work.

Many of the people on state assistance (I worked for a city government and came into contact with this population) are elderly and disabled. I don't see how they can do road work, construction, or janitorial duties (three places where I see immigrants working.)


Norway seems to be doing very well and they have very strict border control.

Conservative magazine, The Federalist, says to not conflate the two.


Nationalism is about putting your countrymen first and doing what is best for your Nation. It is not turning your back on the world, it is simply doing whats best for your country's interest first.

Nationalism is often used to enforce an "ideal" of what a country's population should be, at the expense of minorities who have made the place their home for even longer (Native Americans, for example.)


Nothing is being done about the Las Vegas shooting? The investigation is still ongoing. What else do you want them to do?

Well, immediately after the New York attack, there were a number of legislative moves to tighten down immigration and to put tighter examination on immigrants... and to crack down on Muslim countries although the New York attacker wasn't from any of those. So far the result of the Las Vegas shooting is "we're investigating." And "don't ban bump stocks" etc.


Of course the greatest amount of deaths will be from people living in this country, because they live in this country together, and a lot of people don't get along with other people. How would letting other's, who come from known terrorist territories, without better back ground checks help with it? It wouldn't.

Aren't we talking apples to oranges here? The wall isn't between a Muslim country and our country. It's between a Catholic Christian country which is not a known terrorist nation and ours.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:20 AM
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I still don't know why either side would add non-budget related issues to calculating and authorizing a budget. This makes both Republicans and Democrats loony, IMO.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:21 AM
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originally posted by: 3daysgone
There will be challenges and obstacles, but it will all work out.


yes, i'm quite sure trump will mandate tiny doors for ocelot migration. he loves the little creatures so!



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:28 AM
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Here's a theory.....


Constitution Article 1, Section 6. Clause 1. Protects members of Congress from arrest when they are in session. The government is now shutdown. Congress is not in session. Congress is no longer protected from arrest for treasonous acts.



twitter.com...

Trump had the government shut down to force Congress out of session to makes arrests.

I didn't say it was a good theory, nor mine.
edit on 21-1-2018 by Tempter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:32 AM
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originally posted by: Tempter
Here's a theory.....


Constitution Article 1, Section 6. Clause 1. Protects members of Congress from arrest when they are in session. The government is now shutdown. Congress is not in session. Congress is no longer protected from arrest for treasonous acts.



twitter.com...

Trump had the government shut down to force Congress out of session to makes arrests.

I didn't say it was a good theory, nor mine.


Wow. I did not know that. Thank you. I will keep my eye on this.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 02:37 AM
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I think the wall is a huge waste of time, resourses, and money. What they need to do is use existing laws and go after the magnet that draws illegals here. Businesses that hire them.

With that said this whole showdown is just a stage play so in a sense i agree that behind closed doors there is a bit of collusion going on.

Whatever script is playing out you can rest assured that in the long run the people lose.

JMHO
edit on 21-1-2018 by Terminal1 because: Clarity



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 03:06 AM
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a reply to: Byrd




Funding drones and training for the Border Patrol would be less invasive and more effective and keep the jobs. The "wall building" jobs will last only as long as the wall is being built... once built, the jobs are lost and they'll reduce the number of border patrol agents. Job loss, I think.


If there is a reduction in border patrol agents that would mean that the wall is effective. Why not funding drones and training and the wall. That would be an even more effective border situation.




Give me examples of ones you think worked. We know that the Great Wall didn't work, nor did the Berlin Wall (I lived in Germany then and heard a lot more about escapes and so forth than you heard about. I also visited East Berlin when I was a child and when the wall was still up.)


The one around the white house works. The one's that the elite hide behind seem to be pretty effective. And that is a good reason not to lower the number of border patrol. So no job loss at all.




It can be torn down, circumvented (we can't build a wall around the entire US), flown over, tunneled under... and stealthed through.


With all the drone you were talking about the tearing down of the wall would be caught before it began. The tunneling might be a problem that needs to be addressed in more depth, but the stealthed through argument is something I don't understand the meaning off. Do you mean climbing over it? Or actually phasing through the wall?




Many of the people on state assistance (I worked for a city government and came into contact with this population) are elderly and disabled. I don't see how they can do road work, construction, or janitorial duties (three places where I see immigrants working.)


That is why I said the one's that can work and just can't find a job. There are many of them out there also.




Nationalism is often used to enforce an "ideal" of what a country's population should be, at the expense of minorities who have made the place their home for even longer (Native Americans, for example.)


Nationalism just means that you are for you nation, whomever it consists of. Nothing more. There are no high ideas for this Nationalism. It just means you love your country and want your country to do great.




Well, immediately after the New York attack, there were a number of legislative moves to tighten down immigration and to put tighter examination on immigrants... and to crack down on Muslim countries although the New York attacker wasn't from any of those. So far the result of the Las Vegas shooting is "we're investigating." And "don't ban bump stocks" etc.


They are trying to determine what the hell actually happened. They can't do anything until they figure out what it was about. It was determined what the New York attack was about.




Aren't we talking apples to oranges here? The wall isn't between a Muslim country and our country. It's between a Catholic Christian country which is not a known terrorist nation and ours.


No. We are talking about immigration which includes everyone who is not a citizen of this nation. Are you trying to say that a Christian country is less likely to have a terrorist attacker than a Muslim one?



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 05:58 AM
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a reply to: 3daysgone

Trump from beginning said Mexicans will pay for it. Now he wants American taxpayers to pay for it. Dems say no, better things to spend our money on.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 06:07 AM
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*shrugs* Either the Democrats were dumb enough to make their stand on Daca, or he goaded them into making a stand on Daca and now the republicans have an easy attack position on every democrats campaign, they put non-citizens ahead of American citizens.

Bad political play by the dems and a pretty good one by the republicans to help shield them from back lash over mconnel being useless in the senate.

ETA: All its going to take is one e-1 or 2 to screw up and get bill collectors on their butt (not an unusual situation) and that will be played over and over again for the next year.

Just a poor political decision by the democrats.
edit on 21-1-2018 by Irishhaf because: additional thought.



posted on Jan, 21 2018 @ 06:58 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: fiverx313

originally posted by: 3daysgone
there is no downside to the wall.


it's absolutely terrible for the wildlife.

Wildlife meaning Illegal Immigrants coming into the US illegally ? Violent street gangs , rapists , murderers ? We already had enough of that type of "wildlife" without outside intervention.
You dont put much forethought into some of your posts , do you ?
R , is that you ?


Im thinking more about the migration of mule deer into big bend country.



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