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How does ICE distinguish Legal Citizens from Illegal?

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posted on Jan, 18 2018 @ 08:05 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TonyS
But if you are really worried, just carry your passport with you.


I agree, vee all need to carry our paperz for ven the Gestapo may ask us for zem.


isnt that how it is anyway?

at least being able to prove your identity if asked by a police officer?




posted on Jan, 18 2018 @ 08:22 PM
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originally posted by: badw0lf

isnt that how it is anyway?

at least being able to prove your identity if asked by a police officer?



What to do?

You show the police your papers.

Cop says, come with me, these papers look fake.

Gee, Trump asked Obama for his papers, and when Obama provided them, Trump's investigatory team led by Sheriff Arpaio called them "fake", and kept asking for more. And Obama was the President, the most powerful guy in the land.
What's an ordinary citizen to do, when the police say they don't believe my papers are genuine?

Can't win the "papers" game.

Best to not require any papers.



posted on Jan, 18 2018 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6


That's sort of the key element in your little scenario. According to you, the police have found a person they have reasonable and articulable suspicion of committing a crime.

Stopping somebody to ask about their immigration status doesn't have that in the scenario AM laid out, which is "when they feel like asking."

The perpetrator in my "little scenario" could say the same thing... "I didn't do nothing; you're harassing me; you don't have any evidence." That's the disconnect. It's really not different when it's you instead of them.

I would hope and I do believe that ICE officers take more into account than "he looks Mexican." As a matter fact, I'm sure they do! I met a guy who ran the diesel shop in Texas when I was driving OTR... looked as Mexican as I do hick! I just knew when he was walking towards me and the VP of the company that I was going to make a fool of myself trying to understand his broken English... but then he opened his mouth and said in the most southern drawl I have ever heard, "Howdy! My name's Tom."

Here's the deal: illegal immigrants, like any other group, will typically fall into a pattern. Officers look for elements of that pattern. If they see elements, they have reasonable suspicion. Maybe it's working in a company known to hire illegal aliens (many do so openly and just pay the fines). Maybe it's hanging around a Home Depot with a bunch of other illegal aliens looking for day work. Maybe it's three families living in a house. Maybe it's not being able to speak the language and acting suspicious whenever a uniform shows up. But whatever it is, it is reasonable suspicion.

If you can find a case where there was not reasonable suspicion, point it out. I'll be all for the officer's dismissal and possibly prosecution for abuse of power. Just don't try to paint every officer as such when there is no reason to believe wrongdoing than they might do something... that's as bad as what you are complaining about.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 18 2018 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Dunno man....i shouldnt have to prove citizenship in my country. Its like making me provey innocence. Ita just not right



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 06:03 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Except it is different when one person has a reasonable belief that one person has committed a crime but has nothing more than the power to stop another person and chooses to do so. How on earth you’re able to conflate those two situations in your mind is beyond perplexing.

I don’t need to find examples for you. And I certainly don’t need to find examples for you in an effort to rebut a strawman you’ve created about what I’m doing because you find the strawman an easier position to attack than my own, actual position.



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 06:20 AM
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I know cops have access to your social to verify who you are.

Sounds like they probably have all the tools they need



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: TheRedneck

Dunno man....i shouldnt have to prove citizenship in my country. Its like making me provey innocence. Ita just not right


Imagine the cops barging into your home, and demanding to see your ID and proof that you live there, then when you show them your ID, they arrest you anyway, and haul you off to jail, because you argued with them and told them it wasn't right for them to enter your home without permission and demand to see your ID.

Think it's impossible?

Happened to a "Harvard Professor" named "Henry Louis Gates".

Well, ok, he was just another "black man", so that explains it.

Your ethnic background determines the way you get treated by "the law".

This is why many people don't understand what other people are complaining about, because certain ridiculous things never happen to them, so they believe it can't happen in other people's lives.

We are not all equal in the eyes of the law.



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

YES!

Oregon Man’s Arrest by ICE Agents Captured on Video and Blasted as ‘Appalling’

"He lauded Cardenas for knowing to tell the agents that they didn't have the right to be in the home without a warrant and said they should have listened to him when he asked them to leave."
www.nbcnews.com...



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6


Except it is different when one person has a reasonable belief that one person has committed a crime but has nothing more than the power to stop another person and chooses to do so. How on earth you’re able to conflate those two situations in your mind is beyond perplexing.

It shouldn't be perplexing for you.

Take two situations... one, a drunk driver runs over a child. The parents saw the car, but not the license plate. They tell the police it was a late-model Chevy, reddish in color. The cops locate a red 2015 Chevy Cruze with a dent in the front bumper in a driveway. They question the resident. He claims he hit a tree a few days ago and hasn't driven the car all day. The cops don't believe his story and arrest him for interrogation. During the interrogation it is discovered that he has a neighbor who can verify the dent was already there and he is released.

Two, an American of Mexican descent is driving home from work. He leaves his ID at work accidentally and doesn't want to go back for it. He drives through a neighborhood known to ICE to be a favorite location for illegal immigrants. ICE sees him and decide to check him out. He has no ID, so he is taken into custody. Later, he tells the officers where he lives and they verify his story and release him.

In both cases, the suspect was innocent. In both cases, through no fault of their own, they appeared suspicious of the commission of a crime. In both cases, the suspect was wrongly arrested. In both cases, the investigation showed the error and the suspects were released.

That is how I conflate the two. Illegal immigration is illegal. It is a crime to enter the country without permission. Sometimes, people are in the wrong place at the wrong time and appear guilty. It happens, regardless of the crime. Either you want no police power to detain anyone, or you want illegal immigration to be legalized and the border opened to anyone who wants to wade a muddy creekbed. Either way, that's fine. You have every right to your opinion. But please just have the ommph to speak up and say so... trying to twist things around is not doing anything to change anyone else's opinion, except maybe their opinion of the veracity of your opinion.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Oh no, it’s perplexing to an extreme degree.

“Hey, I followed a truck full of illegal aliens here and I think they’re sitting in that business’s break room.” One scenario, which you’ve concocted.

“Hey, that business over there might have illegals in it because I say they might have illegals in it, so lets go look and demand anybody we find prove their citizenship.” That’s the scenario AM advanced.

How on earth you don’t see a difference between those two is so wildly ludicrous it defies any logic at all, no matter how much of an essay you write about it or how many strawman arguments you come up with, or how many logical fallacies you employ. Yes, illegal immigration is illegal. Hence the name. So is murder. The police have no legal right to enter your home and demand you identify yourself to them just because they feel like making you do it, just on the off chance you might have murdered somebody.

It’s always amazing when somebody reveals their true colors on ATS. For being a site that’s supposed to be full of free-thinkers and misfits and those deeply suspicious of the government, there sure are a lot of people that want the government to do as it pleases.
edit on 19-1-2018 by Shamrock6 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

I suspect that anyone barging in my house will be shot.

The police have no more right to do it than the group of men who have been kicking in doors in the next town over. And Ill deal with anyone kicking in my door the same way: a hail of lead.

That kind of stuff typically only happens up north, or in larger cities.



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 05:21 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6

Your two scenarios don't apply to my position. That's the issue. Any law enforcement officer must have reasonable suspicion to make a stop. In the latter scenario you proposed, there is not reasonable suspicion to suspect a crime and the officer has no legal reason to request ID.

I'm probably one of the hardest here on prosecuting law enforcement officers who cross the line into abuse of power. That applies to all law enforcement, ICE included. Therefore, I make the assumption that law enforcement will operate within the law. If they do not, they should be fired, banned from ever holding public office or a position of civil authority, and prosecuted for civil rights violations. Now if you want to talk about how some in law enforcement often stretch (translation: break the Hades out of) the law in their overzealous attitude-driven ego trip... sure! But I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are still good cops and they deserve all the respect they can get.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 05:34 PM
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I don't think they are just targeting Mexican folks. Recently they swarmed a bunch of 7-Eleven convenience stores. I am pretty sure I have never seen folks of Mexican descent working there, even when I lived in San Diego. I did, however, see many people from perhaps Pakistan or India or in the general Middle Eastern area. Seems like a different targeted group.



originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

You are the only one that kinda answered my question. As an employer you have means to sort through people that are applying for a job. I assume you go through the same thing for each employee and can weed out people that way based on what you are looking for. Good.

So now back to ICE. I guess what I am asking is there racial profiling going on, (it seems only Mexicans are being targeted) or are they going by something else? Are they just randomly asking people on the street because they are looking a little too tan that day, or are they only going by tips. How random is this stuff? Are they just doing stops and ask everyone for ID?

There are 56 million Hispanics in the United States, I understand that Hispanics also makeup a little over half of illegal immigrants. But how do you get one without trampling on the rights of the other???






posted on Jan, 19 2018 @ 06:47 PM
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The ICE asks the suspected illegal immigrants what their favorite baseball squadron is.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 06:22 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

Would you still feel that way if you were the victim of a crime, and were told the police couldn't help you because they found the perpetrator, but he didn't feel like talking to the police?


Those two scenarios are not even remotely related. My minding my own business and then expecting to present papers is not the same as being a criminal suspect.


That's the world you endorse.


Your endorsement sounds much more totalitarian.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 06:23 AM
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originally posted by: badw0lf
at least being able to prove your identity if asked by a police officer?


You legally don't have to present paperwork, only provide a name.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 06:32 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


My minding my own business and then expecting to present papers is not the same as being a criminal suspect.

Oh, it can be. I hope you never experience that.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 06:34 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
Oh, it can be. I hope you never experience that.


Can happen and standard protocol are two separate things. Now it is only initiated by someone who doesn't understand the laws they are charged to uphold.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Well I mean it's a valid point, they can be the same thing.

In a totalitarian world where guys in leather trench coats with little metal warrant discs can go anywhere they please, at any time they please, for any reason they please including no reason at all, and ask anybody for anything.

Sounds like a wonderful place to me!



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 09:00 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

If it happens with regularity, we should be discussing getting rid of bad cops, not getting rid of the laws.

TheRedneck




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