I Want Only The Best People

originally posted by: RickinVa
Poor Ante....

He has fallen into the pit of "I don't have to click a thread to know exactly what it is about" along with another poster.

The landing at the bottom might be a little bit rough.

LOL at everyone trying to shame the OP into not making threads critical of Trump.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: RickinVa
Poor Ante....

He has fallen into the pit of "I don't have to click a thread to know exactly what it is about" along with another poster.

The landing at the bottom might be a little bit rough.

LOL at everyone trying to shame the OP into not making threads critical of Trump.

First I like ante, and welcome any threads critical of anyone.

My complaint would be with him making a thread critical of a strawman.

Trump never said no one from Haiti would be allowed to come.

Trump never said no one from Haiti can be brilliant.

He never said people from Haiti a s-holes.

He was questioning why the lottery system takes so many people from countries like that.

But I have no problem with this thread existing or ante creating more.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Well since Haiti is the Garden of Eden.

At this point.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE ?

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: projectvxn

It's not about the calling countries #holes. That's never been the issue. It's the idea that people from these "#hole" countries, like you and your parents (and as Americans, some of us and many of our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on), are somehow less desirable.

Do you feel that US immigration policy should exclude people like you and your parents because they come from a #hole country?

In a merit based system, it isn't so much where you are from, but what you bring to the table. With limited resources, we cannot take everyone that wants to come to America. I see nothing wrong with saying we only want people with certain education levels, health, wealth, etc. If a doctor, educator, or someone from Haiti wants to immigrate then fine. However, we simply don't have the resources to deal with anyone who can make it to our shores.

a reply to: StallionDuck

I have not been to Haiti but I have been to the Dominican Republic a couple of times. How about you?

Doesn't actually matter because it's irrelevant. I don't know how many times or in how many different ways I can reiterate this.

The issue that I and many others take isn't that he called Haiti or any other country a #hole. (Well, that might be an issue for those countries but that's something separate.) The issue is that he feels that people from "#hole" countries are less desirable immigrants because they're from #holes.

And it just so happens, that when he rattled off a list of #holes, he named Haiti, the entire continent of Africa and El Salvador (actually, I think he said San Salvador which is the capital of El Salvador).

a reply to: Edumakated

Woops! Thanks for the catch! Fixed.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Hazardous1408

So your assertion is that the US is the same level of sh-hole as Haiti?



,

No. I’ve not asserted anything of the sort.

For accuracy you would have to stipulate the reasons, the whereabouts, and the positions sh*ttiness occurs...
The gauge the scale of difference or similarity.

And this isn’t limited to the US, for anyone who believes my targeted position is based on any sort of hatred or bias.


In some aspects I couldn’t label the US sh*t at all...

However I could also say the same of Haiti... But that won’t sink in with some people.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: StallionDuck

Sure, except this isn't about people wanting to live in Haiti, it's about people wanting to escape it, there is no mystery as to why more people from Haiti want to come to North America than people from..say Norway.

People from all over the world, rich and poor, want to live in the US. I imagine if we opened our gates today to complete and freewill immigration, the rest of the world would be as pissed off at us as they are now for NOT opening our borders. We'd clean the worlds clock of people and push them all in the US like hippies in a phone booth. lol

a reply to: Grambler

Well I haven’t once said it was a racist statement.
So that is the only assumption anyone could make of my posts, unless they’re completely irrational.

I do find it selectively offensive, very ignorant, and laden with an exceptionalism attitude.
He’s absolutely free to act in such a way...

I’ll always point it out though.

Trump derangement syndrome

beware all who read, please wash your mind and body after you read this thread, we do not want this virus to spread

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: projectvxn

It's not about the calling countries #holes. That's never been the issue. It's the idea that people from these "#hole" countries, like you and your parents (and as Americans, some of us and many of our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on), are somehow less desirable.

Do you feel that US immigration policy should exclude people like you and your parents because they come from a #hole country?

But.. We're not stopping Haitians from living in the US. Just those that have not applied or gained US citizenship.

Some interesting facts from the Center for Immigration Studies:

Since the terrible tragedy in Haiti, many have sought information about the Haitian community in the United States. Below are some basic socio-demographic statistics:

The last Census Bureau data (2008) indicates there are 546,000 Haitian immigrants in the United States. That is up from 408,000 in 2000 and 218,000 in 1990.1

Of the 546,000 foreign-born Haitians in the United States, 48 percent are naturalized U.S. citizens; this compares to 43 percent for the overall foreign-born population.2

The top states of Haitian immigrant settlement are Florida (251,963; 46%), New York (135,836; 25%) New Jersey (43,316; 8%), Massachusetts (36,779; 7%), Georgia (13,287; 2%), and Maryland (11,266; 2%).3

Our best estimate is that there are 75,000 to 125,000 illegal Haitian immigrants in the country. In 2000, the INS estimated there were 76,000 illegal Haitian immigrants.4

When it extended Temporary Protected Status to Haitians, the Department of Homeland Security estimated 100,000 to 200,000 people could be eligible. While most are illegal immigrants, this estimate also includes those on temporary visas such as tourists, foreign students, and guest workers who will not have to go home.5

Between 2000 and 2008, 183,188 Haitians were given green cards (permanent residence). These figures do not include those who entered on a long-term, temporary basis such as guest workers and foreign students nor does it include short term visitors like tourists. Of those given permanent residence, 135,913 (74 percent) were admitted under family-based immigration.6

There are 310,000 U.S.-born Americans who have at least one parent born in Haiti.7

Of Haitian immigrants (ages 25 to 65) 22 percent have not graduated from high school and 18 percent have a college degree. This compares to 9 percent and 30 percent, respectively, for native-born Americans.8

The share of Haitian immigrants and their young children (under 18) living in poverty is 20 percent. For native-born Americans and their young children it is 11.6 percent.9

The share of Haitian immigrants and their young children who lack health insurance is 29.5 percent. For native-born Americans and their children it is 12.6 percent.10

Of households headed by Haitian immigrants 46 percent use at least one major welfare program. For households headed by native-born Americans it is 20 percent.11

The share of Haitian immigrants who own their own home is 49 percent. For native-born Americans it is 69 percent.12

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Offensive for sure.

Ignorant? You said its a s-hole, so I dont see how its a statement out of ignorance.

Exceptionalism. Maybe, but I have no problem with that in the sense I want a President that has American exceptionalism.

Now if you mean exceptional is saying Norway is better than Haiti, maybe. But again, its the truth.

I dont like hearing the President being this crass.

But it was behind closed doors, and I am not naive that this is how people talk.

But its not racist.. I am glad you agree with that

a reply to: StallionDuck

I don't doubt there are people from all countries rich and poor who want to emigrate, I feel though the #s from the richer well off countries, with good social programs has declined.
Something I will look into.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The issue is that he feels that people from "#hole" countries are less desirable immigrants because they're from #holes.

you said that, not trump.
if you need to constantly move the goal posts [i think mental gymnastics is the modern term] then surely you have no agrument.
i dont really get why anti-trumpers are like this, but threads/arguments like this do alot to turn me away.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

So what's the problem?

a reply to: theantediluvian

Very often, a s-hole country got that way because of the culture of the people in no small part.

Here is a piece about Senegal and why it is the way it is. While the author found there to be many lovely aspects about the Senegalese people, she also admits that the culture had some very large problems that would make the average immigrant from Senegal difficult to integrate and keeps Senegal the more or less backward place it is.

Earth;

The best #hole in the Galaxy.

a reply to: Grambler

Ignorant? You said its a s-hole, so I dont see how its a statement out of ignorance.

Ignorant based on the selectivity and added sense of exceptionalism.

Exceptionalism. Maybe, but I have no problem with that in the sense I want a President that has American exceptionalism.

Now if you mean exceptional is saying Norway is better than Haiti, maybe. But again, its the truth.

Exceptionalism can often breed a false superiority complex as well as potentially cause it’s adherents to overlook, turn away from, or even outright deny any sort of negative aspect in what they find to be “exceptional”.

I do not find that to be a positive trait in anybody, let alone political leadership.

It’s the byproduct of Monarchism, which has been adopted by tyrants of the past and present, and has now sadly crept into what we’d expect to be representatives of democracy embracing nations.

All of that, where humble patriotism would suffice enough to project a sense of proudness and love for one’s country.




I’m not sure I find Norwegians “exceptional” compared to Haitians on an individual level either.
Anders Breivik is one of our eras worst examples of a human, so bad in fact that as a person he reaches levels we’d usually associate with people from centuries ago.

An extreme example for sure, but just to give an idea of my opposition to such a subjective description.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: theantediluvian

Very often, a s-hole country got that way because of the culture of the people in no small part.

Here is a piece about Senegal and why it is the way it is. While the author found there to be many lovely aspects about the Senegalese people, she also admits that the culture had some very large problems that would make the average immigrant from Senegal difficult to integrate and keeps Senegal the more or less backward place it is.

Very good point, would the US want an average Haitian immigrant with little to no discernible skills or an average Aussie immigrant with average skills or an immigrant from India that is a neurologist?

And you can mix and match the advantageous skills/countries, the US would want the neurologist no matter what country they are coming from.



.

a reply to: Edumakated

In a merit based system, it isn't so much where you are from, but what you bring to the table. With limited resources, we cannot take everyone that wants to come to America. I see nothing wrong with saying we only want people with certain education levels, health, wealth, etc. If a doctor, educator, or someone from Haiti wants to immigrate then fine. However, we simply don't have the resources to deal with anyone who can make it to our shores.

Right and what you've just described has nothing to do with the reported statements because as you know, a merit-based system is about "what you bring to the table" not about whether or not some asshole thinks your country of origin is a #hole.

I'm not a fan of merit-based immigration as I take issue with measuring the value of a person by his educational attainment or how much money he has and I think that in many other circumstances, most people would. That said, at least it's a reasoned approach to immigration.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about how immigration works here and in some other countries that are frequently mentioned. For instance, while the diversity lottery program is allocated 50k visas, about 19 million people applied for the lottery in 2017. There are minimum eligibility requirements based on education and employment. And it doesn't give preference to specific countries of origin.

There's about 15-16 countries of origin from which prospective immigrants are not eligible for the lottery. Ironically, that list of ineligible countries includes both Haiti and El Salvador. It also includes Nigeria (which has the largest immigrant population of African country of origins). The criteria for exclusion is countries that have had greater than 50k immigrants in the past five years.

The list of eligible countries includes 50-60 European countries including Norway (and France, Germany, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Russia, etc).

Also ironic is that the diversity program does as much to promote immigration from Norway as it does from Haiti. (and 100+ other countries)