The Media's Racism

originally posted by: theantediluvian

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If the people that feel that Trump saying Haiti was a s-hole was because of race, then when these same people defend the status quo lottery system that demands people from these countries be brought in, are they not in fact saying they just want to bring in brown people?

Isnt that in itself racist?

You're missing the part where Trump didn't say he wanted to do away with the lottery system and move to a merit-based system. In fact, what he said was that we should give preference to people from one country (Norway) over 56 other countries.

The deal he was being presented with was to dissolve the current lottery system and to take those visas and allocate half to merit-based immigration and another half for people currently under Temporary Protected Status (TPS).

So make sure that you're including Trump among those who want to show a preference based on country of origin. And if you believe those people have got racist opinions, then you must also conclude that Trump's opinions on immigration are racist.

Show me thats was the context of trump saying what he allegedly said.

Trump has been advocating a merit based system.

I heard his comments were in repsonse to saying so many people from X and y country needed to be left in was when trump made "tough" remarks.

Your desire to claiom this is racist almost seems like you favor the current system where being from a white country severely hampers your chance to get in.

why would that be?

a reply to: theantediluvian

You're missing the part where Trump didn't say he wanted to do away with the lottery system and move to a merit-based system. In fact, what he said was that we should give preference to people from one country (Norway) over 56 other countries.

wasnt this hearsay actually reported by people who were not actually at the meeting? Was it not actually alleged aides and staffers of the people at the meeting who themselves not present the ones who said he said this?
Thats like twice removed from the source. Not the horse's mouth, or even the stable guys. It was the stable guy's garbage man and plumber who heard from the stable guy who said the horse said it.

Whatever, thank you for supporting Trump, keep up the great work! I love our President

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Time and time again, I am left in awe of your ability to state factually, what confuses so many.

Thank you.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If the people that feel that Trump saying Haiti was a s-hole was because of race, then when these same people defend the status quo lottery system that demands people from these countries be brought in, are they not in fact saying they just want to bring in brown people?

Isnt that in itself racist?

Don't throw a spanner like that into the dichotomy.

Big words and logic make scared people do random things.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Trump was a piece of # in the 80s, but thanks for sharing how your feels are when people call trump for what he is.

Well said, Homer.

Ask Lenny to give Carl a hug.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Oh look! Another thread where a Trumpologist

lol

I think we need to diversify. I'm tiring of seeing the same names spout the same tired rhetoric and think they're on game. I want, at some point, to be able to star and agree with some of the things certain members say.

This, however, is not that time.... sadly.

a reply to: Grambler

Actually, it wasn't just Nigeria. Though, again, Nigeria is by far the African country of origin for the most immigrants.

Within the foreign-born population from Africa, educational attainment varied by place of birth. For example, 64% of Egyptian-born individuals were graduates as were 61% from Nigeria, 57% from South Africa, 47% from Kenya and 35% from Ghana. These were the countries with the highest proportion of Africans with bachelor’s and higher degrees.

Egypt I believe is #2.

Again, you ignored the study I provided that showed that immigrants from areas that are crappy countries tend to be more likely to need government welfare when they come in.

I'm certainly not ignoring anything, I hadn't been back to the other thread. I'm not going to read through a 41 page paper randomly sourced from the Internet to refute the point but there are a few glaring problems. First off, when the authors refer to "immigrants" from a region as a whole, as they do in the lines you've excerpted, they aren't only counting those from the diversity visa lottery (which is the issue at hand) but rather refugees, asylum seekers and even illegal immigrants.

Table 3 summarizes welfare usage across immigration status. We divide immigrants into those who are naturalized and does who are not. We call those who are not naturalized citizens “non citizen immigrants”. This category consist of permanent residents, those on visas and those who are illegal immigrants. Interestingly, Table 3 seems to suggest that non-naturalized immigrants use welfare programs more intensively than the naturalized immigrants for all immigrant groups apart from other North Americans (Canada and Bermuda). This result is surprising giving the fact that many non-naturalized immigrants are not eligible for any welfare programs because they are on visas or illegal.

It wasn't immediately clear to me where this data came from but if it's sourced from what the authors cited, the data is even older than the paper (which is 9 years old) — some of it is as old as 33 years and the newest more than a dozen years old.

Again, if this is all about race, how isnt the fact that our immigration system overwhelmingly accepts people of countries that happen to not have a majority white population, despite the fact immigrants from European countries and Canada seem to require less government assistance to be successful on average?

Questioning the current lottery based system that requires people be accepted based on country and not merit does not seem racist.

The diversity lottery program is only 55k visas per year. The ceiling for permanent immigration per year is 675k. There are other categories like refugees for which there were 85k visas in 2016.

Then there's the permanent employment-based programs immigration program which accounts for 140k. Those are allocated across 5 preference groups.

The biggest category other than employment is family-based immigration which can be anywhere between 220k and 480k though these preference groups overlap. The plan that was presented to Trump made the parents of DREAMers ineligible for family-based immigration visas btw.

It's actually pretty complicated and not something the president seems to be particularly on top of given his ridiculous statements like this about the lottery program:

"They give us their worst people, put them in a bin... they're picking the worst of the worst, congratulations you're going to the US."

Except that's not how immigration works at all, not even the lottery program. The guy is an idiot and why you go so far out of your way to defend him is beyond me.

However, if thats the claim, then how is demanding that immigrants be overwhelmingly from non white countries regardless of merit also not racist?

Except that's not what the diversity visa program is or how it operates.

travel.state.gov - Diversity Visa Program - Entry

Section 203(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) provides for a class of immigrants known as “diversity immigrants,” from countries with historically low rates of immigration to the United States. A limited number of visas are available each fiscal year. The DVs are distributed among six geographic regions and no single country may receive more than seven percent of the available DVs in any one year.

Arguably, the only person who is trying to play favorites with countries and possibly races/ethnic groups is... Donald J Trump.

a reply to: pheonix358

No, Trump isn't asking if immigration should be merit based. In fact, a large percentage of immigration is already merit based and another sizable chunk is humanitarian relief. The biggest single chunk is family-based migration. Only 55k of 675k slots are for the diversity lottery.

To me the whole merit-based thing is elitist garbage which is rather ironic coming from Trump supporters who blather about "the elites" but I digress. Trump's statements in the meeting did not reflect a desire for a shift to more merit-based immigration (in fact, what was presented to him did just that). I can't even believe you'd argue this tbh.

A merit-based system wouldn't have preferences by country of origin — the preferences would be by? You guessed it — merit. In a merit based system, a person from "#hole" Haiti or "#hole" Ghana or even "#hole" San Salvador could be just as desirable as one from Norway.

Unless of course I'm completely confused about what merit-based immigration is. Is being from Norway meritorious?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Is that what he did? I think these connections are entirely derived from your own prevelance for connecting words that denote nationality to some perverted idea of race heaven in the depths of your own head.

Lmao. "Race heaven?" No. He definitely denigrated people from "#hole countries" as being undesirable compared to those from countries such as Norway. If you can't bring yourself to admit that much, I don't think there's much I can do to persuade you.

Fact is, Donald Trump has delt with people of different ethnicities, nationalities, races, in various settings and geographies for decades.

So did Hitler.

You just sit on your computer.

I had to LOL at that. Let's take a look at something here. Your average posts per day? 6.77 Mine? 7.88. So really? And what is it that you're always admonishing people not to do? I'm certainly not flying around the world tweeting from my plane's golden toilet but I do manage to travel fairly regularly. Want to compare notes?

No I do not trust you have the ability to look into someone’s heart and know their motivations.

You mean like how you have the ability to know what my life experiences have been? I knew if this post went on long enough, there would be some sanctimonious and wholly hypocritical dig. I guess we're both psychic.

In the absence of objective remarks that prove racism, all you have is your own projections.

So if you and I read a statement and I view it as being motivated by racial prejudice and you do not, then I must be projecting? That's not an argument so much as a statement of narcissistic relativism.

That's not racist because I say it's not! You're wrong because I'm right!

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Let’s put aside for a moment the rib-tickling fact that an adult ran to a popular news organization in order to tattle on the president for saying mean things. Let's forget that for a moment

So you want us to forget about the reason you posted this thread ........Right so we could all jump on the bandwagon with high 5s qnd maybe a little ass slappin....

a reply to: theantediluvian

I don’t pretend to know anything about you, nor about Trump’s motivations. I don’t need to. That’s your bag, and it’s a safe bet you have no clue what you are talking about.

Haitian is not a race, neither is Norwegian. It’s racist to propose otherwise. Either you do not know what racism is, or you really believe Haiti or Norway represents certain races. When Trump “disparages” people from other countries, you automatically take it to mean race. That’s your mistake, not Trump’s. That’s why you’re wrong, and that’s why your allegations are fake, phoney, pure fiction.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Let’s put aside for a moment the rib-tickling fact that an adult ran to a popular news organization in order to tattle on the president for saying mean things. Let's forget that for a moment

So you want us to forget about the reason you posted this thread ....

....Right so we could all jump on the bandwagon with high 5s qnd maybe a little ass slappin....

Are you going to go tell on me?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Let’s put aside for a moment the rib-tickling fact that an adult ran to a popular news organization in order to tattle on the president for saying mean things. Let's forget that for a moment

So you want us to forget about the reason you posted this thread ....

....Right so we could all jump on the bandwagon with high 5s qnd maybe a little ass slappin....

Are you going to go tell on me?

I know my button is bigger than yours so nannanna

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Funny in the 80's there are several pictures of him with these minority leaders praising him,you sound like a liberal,only listen or say what you want,truth need not apply

a reply to: LesMisanthrope


Why is it people don't want to help the hungry in this country first? Why is it people don't want to fix our inner cities? I truly believe if you took the government out of some of these equations this country would be a lot better off.
But hey lets keep spending billions we don't have on people who aren't here legally. To hell with our own people they don't count. That is what I hear out of some peoples mouths.
Well written once again. Thanks.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Oh look! Another thread where a Trumpologist sidesteps the actual issue and attacks the media.

It's not the vulgarity of the term nor is it that he described Haiti, the entire continent of Africa and San Salvador as "#holes countries." It's that he denigrated immigrants from these countries (56 in total) and made a blanket assertion that simply by being from Norway, a potential immigrant is inherently more desirable.

What's behind his valuations of these people?

I've already posted some stats on the educational and economic attainments of immigrants from a number of countries that fit his criteria for undesirables. If it was supposed to a statement about merit-based immigration policy, Trump is too ignorant to be trying to lead the conversation.

If not relevant data, what exactly is it that informs Trump's opinions?

It couldn't be the same wingnut nativist ignorance and prejudice plainly evident in his nativist demagoguery could it? It's completely unreasonable to believe that maybe Trump is just an old douche bag who bases decisions on racial/ethnic/other similar prejudices.

Is that what he did? I think these connections are entirely derived from your own prevelance for connecting words that denote nationality to some perverted idea of race heaven in the depths of your own head. Fact is, Donald Trump has delt with people of different ethnicities, nationalities, races, in various settings and geographies for decades.

You just sit on your computer.

No I do not trust you have the ability to look into someone’s heart and know their motivations. In the absence of objective remarks that prove racism, all you have is your own projections.

Thereby cementing my suspicions that those who know what lies in the heart of another are only suffering inside a fog cast by their own racism's shadow. After all, if they are THAT racist, you must have also fed your own dark wolf. One betrothed to their own emotional maelstrom cannot imagine another's equally loyal relationship to information, statistics and facts. Thank you OP - you've managed to elucidate my own sentiments more clearly than I could myself.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: theantediluvian

The other evidence your presented was the immigration from India is successful.

Ok how is that relevant? Had trump spoken of india as a bad country, perhaps you would have a point, he did not.

It's relevant to him because people like that think all brown people are the same, so Haiti = India. These are the same people that think being against illegal immigration makes you racist against Mexicans, as if Mexico is the only country from which people immigrate illegally.

They are the real racists in this picture.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Under a merit based system, which immigrant is more likely to qualify:

1. One raised in a modern country like Norway

2. One raised in a chaos laden hell hole like Somalia

You tell me which immigrant is more like to have to skills to be self-supporting in the US.

Go ahead ... unless you think such an admission makes you racist. Understand, no one asked you to speculate on the actual ethnic makeup of the two immigrants only on the social/economic systems that produced them.

a reply to: theantediluvian

You say the study refers to more than just the visa lottery.

Thats true, but why is that relevant. Trump is questioning our current system, which includes things like the visa lottery and chain migration which he want to get rid of a replace with a merit system.

Regardless, the study clearly shows people from crummier countries tend to require more government assistance.

your articles showing Nigeria and India do well further show this; they arent as crummy as el salvador, Liberia, or Haiti.

Saying the numbers are from 2009 would only be relevant if you could provide me with more recent numbers showing this trend has reversed.

The point is the US has the right to accept the best people for this country. So it is reasonable to question why we take in so many people from crummy countries.

Again, to make this about race is absurd. Trump didnt mention not wanting people from india, the Dominican, asian countries, etc., all of which are predominantly non white countries. Nor did trump say he would not take anyone from the countries he mentioned.

But if we are going to focus on race.

Using the most recent immigration numbers here www.dhs.gov...

We see that less than 10% of the immigrants we take in are from Europe or predominantly "white countries"

Why are people fighting so hard to defend the current immigration system that taks so few white people?

Uisng the same logic that is used against trump, they must be racist.