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Lets talk about "whataboutism"

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posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 03:12 PM
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It seems many people seek to stymie any mention of anything that has happened in past administration as whataboutism.

I think that there are times when this applies, but it is being used to cover up for the fact that many of the extreme reactions against Trump are in fact hypocritical.

Here is an example of when it would apply.

Trump is increasing the debt. To say "Obama did it too" is whataboutism. I get that. Just because Obama did it doesnt mean that its ok for Trump to do it.

However, pointing out hypocrisy peoples reactions to the two actions is not whataboutism. If someone were to say, "You screamed about Obama raising the debt, why not trump" or the inverse "You were ok with Obama raising the debt, so why have you changed with Trump" to me are both credible points to bring up.

This doesnt mean that the Trumps actions are excused because Obama did it, it points out the difference in reaction by people.

This pointing out of hypocritical reactions is especially needed when its people with power having those reactions, like politicians or main stream media people.

So when the main stream media goes nuts about trumps crude language, has wall to wall coverage about how unpresidential and racist he is, and perhaps shut down the government over this, I think its fair to point out that Obama and many of these same media people had no problem making sexual pejoratives against conservatives they didnt like, using the term "teabagger"

Yet people jump up and down calling this whataboutism. I am not saying that one president doing it makes it ok for trump, that would be whataboutism. I am saying that the insane overreaction to it by people is hypocritical considering both they and the past president used vulgar insults against actual people with smiles on their faces.

People hate trump so much that they want to act like everything he does is the end of the world, and is some sort of unprecedented evil for a President to do. Pointing out to these people how many of these things are not unprecedented and in fact the past President that they praised did similar things is not excusing trump for doing them, its pointing out the hypocrites that seek to blow things out of proportion to fit their narrative.

Now maybe your thinking "I hated it when both presidents did those things" Great, that's consistency, and I have no problem with that.

But its still worth pointing out the hyperbolic reaction by people, especially those with power.




posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 03:18 PM
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You could change trumps name for obama, bush jr, clinton, bush senior and you would end up with the same thread.





posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
You could change trumps name for obama, bush jr, clinton, bush senior and you would end up with the same thread.




Yep pretty much true.

See, at least Im consistent.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 04:10 PM
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Let's see George Bush increased the national debt from $5 trillion to $10 trillion in 8 years. Then Obama increased the national debt from $10 trillion to $20 trillion (roughly) in 8 years. So that's pretty much a clean double every 8 years, well in fact it's 8.5 years.

I did this spreadsheet before for another forum, let's see if it shows up correctly here;

Debt Expansion = 0.085
Debt 2017 = $20,000,000,000,000
GDP 2017 = $17,000,000,000,000
GDP expansion = 1.5%
Average interest on debt 2.5%
Allowable Percentage of Taxes to Interest 33.0%

Year Debt GDP Taxable Amount 33% Taxable Amount Interest on the debt
$ Trillions $ Trillions $ Trillions $ Trillions $ Trillions
A B C D E
2018 $21.70 $17.26 $2.93 $0.97 $0.54 ok
2019 $23.54 $17.51 $2.98 $0.98 $0.59 ok
2020 $25.55 $17.78 $3.02 $1.00 $0.64 ok
2021 $27.72 $18.04 $3.07 $1.01 $0.69 ok
2022 $30.07 $18.31 $3.11 $1.03 $0.75 ok
2023 $32.63 $18.59 $3.16 $1.04 $0.82 ok
2024 $35.40 $18.87 $3.21 $1.06 $0.89 ok
2025 $38.41 $19.15 $3.26 $1.07 $0.96 ok
2026 $41.68 $19.44 $3.30 $1.09 $1.04 ok
2027 $45.22 $19.73 $3.35 $1.11 $1.13 BUST

A = Debt (Trillions $)
B = GDP (Trillions $)
C = Taxable Amount (17% GDP - Trillions $)
D = 33% D - Assumed Allowable for Interest Payment (Trillions $)

That basically says that once our interest payments get to be about 1/3 of taxes the dollar is going to bust. According to my calcs then Trump would have to increase the debt from $20 T to $30 T in his 4 years to keep pace.

This is a structural issue, since 1933 our government has steadily increased the national debt at around 8.5% a year every year.

Here's the magic I prefaced

(1+0.085)^8.5 = 2

So a clean double every 8.5 years that way no sitting president gets caught clearly doubling the national debt in his/her term in office. They set it up this way a loooong time ago, it is STRUCTURAL

Edit: maybe the image is better:


edit on 16-1-2018 by SkeptiSchism because: added image



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 04:25 PM
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whataboutism. I like it. Sounds like an adult version of I know you are but what am I



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 05:03 PM
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‘many of these same media people had no problem making sexual pejoratives against conservatives they didnt like, using the term "teabagger" ’
It’s fun to pretend that the evil left and MSM made up “teabaggers” when in the real world it was the ignorant tea party members who proudly called themselves teabaggers. Informed folks enjoyed making fun of their ignorance.
edit on 16-1-2018 by StewartHart because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 05:07 PM
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originally posted by: StewartHart
‘many of these same media people had no problem making sexual pejoratives against conservatives they didnt like, using the term "teabagger" ’
It’s fun to pretend that the evil left and MSM made up “teabaggers” when in the real world it was the ignorant tea party members called themselves teabaggers. Informed folks enjoyed making fun of their ignorance.


Exactly the point!

So they enjoyed using what they knew to be a sexual term to mock people that used it and were ignorant of it.

And not all tea party ,members used it, yet they were all called this sexual crude name, even by the President Obama.

But just to bel clear, the press and President using crude language to mock conservatives is fun and awesome, but saying a third wolrd country is an s-hole is horribly offensive and bigotted and deserving of near 24/7 coverage.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 05:31 PM
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I can see your point here, it is a good distinction. I like your thinking.

Is it just yours, or are there other people or sources that say pointing out hypocrisy isn’t whataboutism? I would like to use this distinction, but not as much if it isn’t accepted by most people and professional debaters.
edit on 16pmTue, 16 Jan 2018 17:35:27 -0600kbpmkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: darkbake

Well I dont know anyone that has really sought to define it.

Let me try to make it more clear for everyone.

When we make comments, we have a subject or target of those comments.

Saying its bad trump has increased the debt, Trump is the subject of that. Saying Obama did it too changes the subject, now we are discussing Obama. This is whataboutism, because it seeks to excuse Trumps behavior by using another subjects behavior.

Now I am not saying no one can make this argument, but I would say it falls in the category of whataboutism.

Now if I said the media didnt mind when Obama spent money, but they do when Trump does. the media is the subject in both of those claims. Because the subject didnt change, I dont feel its whataboutism.

So in the case I am making in the OP, the subject of my claim was the media and politicians that on one hand think trumps vulgarity and crudeness is beyond the pale, yet they themselves either excused or used crude comments against others.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Especially when the same crap comes out of their own mouth.

Like Dicky Durbin and Lindsey.




posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: burgerbuddy
a reply to: Grambler

Especially when the same crap comes out of their own mouth.

Like Dicky Durbin and Lindsey.



Yep.

Graham called Mexico a hellhole, then is appalled that trump said s-hole.

Durbin says the term "chain migration" is racist, yet he himself has used it.

It is not whataboutism to bring up the fact they said this to show their hypocrisy.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

It sounds like a good solution to the problem. I'll keep that in mind. It can be annoying when the subject changes like that, it is nice to be able to point out hypocrisy without changing the subject too much.
edit on 16pmTue, 16 Jan 2018 19:36:34 -0600kbpmkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:21 PM
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a reply to: Grambler


Obviously you're Hitler.

And racist.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

If I give it a name, then stigmatize it, I don't have to acknowledge it!

Sounds like a familiar tactic....



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

I absolutely hate the term 'whataboustism' and every application I've ever seen of it because it's used as a license to have double standards.

BUT, I particularly hate when it's used in the midst of a discussion about the equal application of the law and equal justice. The term suggests that justice and the application of law don't have to be equal because there's a cute word to mock those ideas.

Would those same people who use the term 'whataboutism' scream it at BLM when they decry unfair police treatment and unfair treatment in the justice system? Would they use it when women talk about unequal/equal pay? No, I think they would not.

It's a pathetic term and I lose respect for anyone I see using it.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

....but Hillary



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

What about Trump saying he was going to get rid of the debt, and he had a plan, a very, very good plan. Guess that is along the lines of his very, very, very good healthcare where all are covered and get to pick their own Dr's.





posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:55 PM
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originally posted by: bgerbger
a reply to: Grambler

....but Hillary


= No argument.

*Golf clap*



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 07:59 PM
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a reply to: kurthall

He can't it's structural. But I know the thread's about whataboutism so what about FDR? He started this mess and every single president has added to the mess.

It's really ordo ab chao, at this point to fix the problem would be political suicide so no one does. People like Ron Paul that know what to do, never get the chance. And it's probably a good thing to because he'd end up being the most hated person in the nation.

It's a collective problem, and we'll get to deal with it collectively at some point.



posted on Jan, 16 2018 @ 08:25 PM
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What about most of Trump's unpopular actions, weren't most of them laws or EOs that Obama had already made?




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