The religious bottleneck of the first century.

originally posted by: pheonix358

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Akragon

Wow! I'm seriously embarrassed for you! Talk about poor reading comprehension! I don't think I've ever seen ignorance run this deep before on ATS!

One of the more idiotic things I have read.

What we say of others to hurt and degrade, often covers our own ineptness.

P

Do you want to talk about ineptness? Read the verse below and tell me that it's talking about a group of people (as in the people of Israel) as opposed to one person in the form of the Messiah (specifically Jesus).

Isaiah 53:12

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT EVEN COME CLOSE TO STATING THAT THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WOULD DIE TO COVER ANYONE'S SINS OR BECOME INTERCESSORS. THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE THE TRANSGRESSORS, NOT THE INTERCESSORS and it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. It takes a special self delusion to believe that one.

a reply to: Deetermined

Where's your example of Israel being referred to as "He"? There isn't one. Israel and Jerusalem is always referred to in the feminine, which is why we have the woman in Revelation 12.

Nonsense...

Israel is regularly referred to as HE... almost like a corporate entity

JEREMIAH 48:27
Now was Israel a laughingstock to you? Or
was he caught among thieves? For each time
you speak about him you shook your head
in scorn.

HOSEAH 14:5-6
5 I will be like the dew to Israel, he will
blossom like the lily, and he will take root
like the cedars of Lebanon. 6 His shoots will
sprout, and his splendor will be like the olive
tree, and his fragrance like the cedars of
Lebanon.

ISAIAH 43:10
You are My witnesses says the L-rd, and My
servant whom I have chosen . . .

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT EVEN COME CLOSE TO STATING THAT THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WOULD DIE TO COVER ANYONE'S SINS

First thing you've said thats actually correct... and that includes the verse your talking about

try to get that through your head... i've already repeated myself twice about it

it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. It takes a special self delusion to believe that one.

Kinda like... reading words that arn't there?

yup... you seem to fit the bill

a reply to: Akragon

Israel is regularly referred to as HE... almost like a corporate entity

JEREMIAH 48:27
Now was Israel a laughingstock to you? Or
was he caught among thieves? For each time
you speak about him you shook your head
in scorn.

Nope. That's talking about King Moab and the Kingdom of Moab.

Jeremiah 48:25-28

25 The horn of Moab is cut off, and his arm is broken, saith the Lord.

26 Make ye him drunken: for he magnified himself against the Lord: Moab also shall wallow in his vomit, and he also shall be in derision.

27 For was not Israel a derision unto thee? was he found among thieves? for since thou spakest of him, thou skippedst for joy.

28 O ye that dwell in Moab, leave the cities, and dwell in the rock, and be like the dove that maketh her nest in the sides of the hole's mouth.

HOSEAH 14:5-6
5 I will be like the dew to Israel, he will
blossom like the lily, and he will take root
like the cedars of Lebanon. 6 His shoots will
sprout, and his splendor will be like the olive
tree, and his fragrance like the cedars of
Lebanon.

As for for Hosea 14:5-6, the name of Israel is being used in place of the tribe of Ephraim (see verse 8 and read the entire chapter of Hosea 13). God will revive the tribe and reunite them altogether, but at the time they were going astray, unlike the tribe of Judah at the time. This isn't referring to the entire nation of Israel, but a tribe of it.

Hosea 11:12

12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

originally posted by: Akragon

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT EVEN COME CLOSE TO STATING THAT THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WOULD DIE TO COVER ANYONE'S SINS

First thing you've said thats actually correct... and that includes the verse your talking about

try to get that through your head... i've already repeated myself twice about it

Kinda like... reading words that arn't there?

Isaiah 53:12 - 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

When you say that the word "He" in Isaiah 53:12 represents the people of Israel, that's exactly what you're saying, even if you're not admitting it. The verse clearly says the "He" poured himself out unto death for the sins of many for intercession. If you really want to claim that "He" is Israel, that's exactly what you're saying whether you admit it or not. You denying it isn't an explanation. It's just more of your self contradicting statements that you always make just to keep an argument going long after it's been dead.

a reply to: Deetermined

Nope. That's talking about King Moab and the Kingdom of Moab.

No in that passage HE was a reference to Israel... quite obvious if you can read english

For was not Israel a derision unto thee? was he found among thieves? for since thou spakest of him, thou skippedst for joy.

As for for Hosea 14:5-6, the name of Israel is being used in place of the tribe of Ephraim (see verse 8 and read the entire chapter of Hosea 13). God will revive the tribe and reunite them altogether, but at the time they were going astray, unlike the tribe of Judah at the time. This isn't referring to the entire nation of Israel, but a tribe of it.

explain the obvious away if you wish to... fact is Israel was being called HE...

When you say that the word "He" in Isaiah 53:12 represents the people of Israel, that's exactly what you're saying, even if you're not admitting it.

What is to admit... its right there in black and white...

The verse clearly says the "He" poured himself out unto death for the sins of many for intercession. If you really want to claim that "He" is Israel, that's exactly what you're saying whether you admit it or not.

yes thats exactly what im saying... thats exactly what the book says...

and regardless of what you believe, it was not ever talking about Jesus...

You denying it isn't an explanation. It's just more of your self contradicting statements that you always make just to keep an argument going long after it's been dead.

Never once denied it... again, its all there for anyone to read...

what i said was.. "it does not say anyone had to die for anyone elses sins... and no sacrifice is mentioned"

IF you choose to twist what is said into your paulian views of it... thats your choice

As if the writer of Isaiah just decided to change the topic for a verse and write of a man that wasn't going to appear for another 4-500 years...

Sure makes total sense

In any case, again... Israel is regularly referred to as HE or in the singular sense...

that is a fact... and it can not be denied

Like it or not

a reply to: Akragon

Akragon, you've been in enough of these conversations over the YEARS, that you know Isaiah is filled with prophecy about future events, that's why it indirectly mentions Jesus. Do a look up of all the Old Testament Bible verses that Jesus quoted throughout his ministry. Isaiah and the Psalms were at the top of the list.

Your "NO he didn't" replies with no other explanations have become tiresome and ridiculous.

Moving on hoping you don't derail every future religious thread with mindless and pointless replies.

a reply to: Deetermined

That’s funny on 2 levels..

1) of course he first “know” it is referring to jesus.. how many times does he ha e to say that.. first person unambiguously, without Chopin he it up and hiding it throughout a thousand page book..



2) The most important concept in the universe and it is only partially and indirectly mentioned like 3 times. Cut into snippets that don’t even cover the whole concept collectively..

The most important thing for the human race to learn from the Torah..


Yea.. I’m sure..