So You Hate The Deep State And Intelligence!

Well I’m under no illusion that this thread will be popular...
But I can’t refrain from documenting these thoughts in the archives.


Firstly, I would like to state I’m far from coming at this from an apologist angle...
I’m just trying to be a logical as I can.



So here goes...

Intelligence gathering does far more than just counter-terrorism...

It prevents local wannabe warlords from controlling territories...
It prevents paedo-rings...
It prevents deadly drug smuggling and distribution...
It prevents rape-slave trade and trafficking in general...
It prevents local gangbanging clicks from turning into full blown Cartels...
It prevents mob uprisings that wouldn’t be conducive to society...
It prevents foreign invasion...
It prevents our elected leaders turning full blown tyrant...
It prevents race-war proliferation...
It prevents hackers from emptying your bank account...

Want me to carry on?
Cos I could... endlessly, in fact.

Yeah, sometimes they fail... Do not attempt to claim I’m oblivious to that.
And yes, some rogue elements even facilitate the above... Do not attempt to claim I’m oblivious to that either.

It doesn’t change the overall benefits it provides, and the protections it guarantees.


It’s really easy to be against that sort of system, but it’s just completely emotion fuelled nonsense with Swiss cheese logic.




“Trade freedom for safety yada yada yada”... A delusional mantra if you ask me.

True Freedom doesn’t exist... Never has or will...
That’s an uncomfortable fact people need to digest, with or without Intelligence gathering.

Safety can exist though...
But truly only with Intelligence...

Remove it, and then see how quickly our little World’s crumble as that list above becomes normal and frequent.


I do not believe it to be perfect, or ideal...
But it’s what I’ll accept as necessary for the whole (especially the defenceless among us) to actually stand a chance in society.

Damn, even in regards to the U.S, which is widely regarded as the pinnacle of civilisation, even the Founding Fathers implemented and relied upon certain Intelligence to fulfil that aspiration.

So... Forgive me for lacking any faith in humanity’s ability to constrict and suffocate their base nature.
But historically humanity has never earned that sort of trust, from me at least.

Personally, I think many people need to get with reality.



Flame on! 😂😂😂

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Really? You are this needful of virtue signaling your affection for Big Brother Government? What are you, CIA? NSA?

Supping from the fountain of propaganda with a ladle of epic proportions.

So sad really.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: Hazardous1408

Really? You are this needful of virtue signaling your affection for Big Brother Government? What are you, CIA? NSA?

Supping from the fountain of propaganda with a ladle of epic proportions.

So sad really.

Uhhuh...😂
A very convincing rebuttal, guy.

Well done you. 👍

Whoohhaha..

It prevents local wannabe warlords from controlling territories...
It prevents paedo-rings...
It prevents deadly drug smuggling and distribution...
It prevents rape-slave trade and trafficking in general...
It prevents local gangbanging clicks from turning into full blown Cartels...
It prevents mob uprisings that wouldn’t be conducive to society...
It prevents foreign invasion...
It prevents our elected leaders turning full blown tyrant...
It prevents race-war proliferation...
It prevents hackers from emptying your bank account...

Nine of the then are happening MORE then hundred years ago... before your DATA and Intel gathering started on this level...

Its a downward spiral. If the information is there, it will be abused.

Wake up!

a reply to: Hazardous1408

I agree 100% the only caveat I would put on it is that they should always be held accountable to the public and elected officials.

They are a necessary evil, and like it or not the work of the intelligence services do a lot of good.

Sure like all organisations they have some bad apples and they make highly questionable choices.

but yeah I think people are way too quick to hate on the work of the inetel community and law enforcement at large.

The politicians.....well thats a different matter.

a reply to: EartOccupant

Nine of the then are happening MORE then hundred years ago... before your DATA and Intel gathering started on this level...

I’ll ignore the fact that you, me and everyone here wasn’t alive 100yrs ago to actually verify that...

I’ll just ask you if you’re aware of the population growth in that time, at all?



Literally the best thing I could say to that is “duhhh ya think?”.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I agree 100% the only caveat I would put on it is that they should always be held accountable to the public and elected officials.

I think we both know that's not very realistic. If we don't even know who or what they are, there can be no accountability.

It's a dark world, financed by dark money, with an agenda normal people can't even imagine.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
Intelligence gathering does far more than just counter-terrorism...

It prevents local wannabe warlords from controlling territories...
It prevents paedo-rings...
It prevents deadly drug smuggling and distribution...
It prevents rape-slave trade and trafficking in general...
It prevents local gangbanging clicks from turning into full blown Cartels...
It prevents mob uprisings that wouldn’t be conducive to society...
It prevents foreign invasion...
It prevents our elected leaders turning full blown tyrant...
It prevents race-war proliferation...
It prevents hackers from emptying your bank account...

Source please.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Thanks! I guess I could have tried harder, but..........its lunch time.

But honestly, what's to rebut? It is what it is and there's not much anyone of us can do about it. You use the word "hate" as in why do people hate the Deep State and the Intelligence community. Hate's a way too strong word for that. In the US at least, the Intelligence Agencies are simply one component of the Deep State and while most don't hate the Deep State or its component agencies, people are disturbed and tired of the fact that the Deep State has risen to the surface to such an extent that they're trying to influence electoral outcomes. There really shouldn't be a Deep State; and if one is needed for defensive purposes, it should be working FOR the elected government, not the other way round.

In many respects, animus expressed against the Deep State is a symptom of a bigger problem in the US society, i.e., the fact that the US has essentially been on a war footing since 1942. All other interests have been subordinated to the Military-Industrial Complex. Its extremely tiresome and leads to the hollowing out not only of the national resources but the social psyche. In other words, its depressing!

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Secrets will eventually on the long turn create problems.

You assume i was not around 100 years ago, you might be surprised.

But i know some one who was around about 50 years ago:



Or even earlier..

a reply to: Hazardous1408

It's looking more and more that a sitting Administration spied upon a presidential candidate of the other party in the run up to an elections, turning the Intelligence Community and the DOJ into a political weapon.

Forgive me for not preaching the values of the good they also do. A housecleaning is in order.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

It doesn’t change the overall benefits it provides, and the protections it guarantees.

It’s really easy to be against that sort of system, but it’s just completely emotion fuelled nonsense with Swiss cheese logic.

The system protects itself, from the people. It oppresses them by monitoring every little thing they do all day long. It guarantees nothing on that list; the banks, military, Politicians and cops will still steal your money, your assets and privacy, any time they feel like it.

Welcome to the New Deep Surveillance State; blood, breath, DNA and piss samples will be collected at every checkpoint from now on.

Have a Nice Day.

a reply to: EartOccupant

Secrets will eventually on the long turn create problems.

Understandable and very valid point.
But problems, large and small, will exist with or without secrecy.
So I personally don’t find that convincing enough to do away with Intel, sadly.

You assume i was not around 100 years ago, you might be surprised.

Right...
Technically, yeah...
But it’s hardly a stupid assumption is it?
I’d also just assume you were full of it if you actually claimed to be 100yrs +. 😂

And you didn’t address population growth?
Care to?

But i know some one who was around about 50 years ago:

Uhhuh, a JFK speech that has been used as proof of the cloak and daggers of about 74 million different groups and institutions worldwide...
When concensus can show he was truly referring to Intelligence, as you seem to be implying, I’ll absolutely concede the point. I sincerely mean that.


Eisenhower’s MIC speech, as far as my memory suggests, makes no mention of Intelligence, I’ve always taken it as a warning of the dangers of Imperialism creeping into the Military structure.
But I could certainly be wrong.





This part is not directed at you specifically, EarthOccupant;

I do hope people consider the bolded part of my OP when responding...
It’d be useless attempting to converse with anyone who is trying to paint my position as blinded to any insidiousness that can and does occur.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Hazardous1408

It's looking more and more that a sitting Administration spied upon a presidential candidate of the other party in the run up to an elections, turning the Intelligence Community and the DOJ into a political weapon.

Forgive me for not preaching the values of the good they also do. A housecleaning is in order.

Yeah.
I already admitted as much in the OP.
Bolded it purposely so it would be apparent to the readers.

But you say this as if they couldn’t just do all of that without bothering with the “good they do”...
Who’s/What’s to stop them in that regard?

It’s my entire point that “the good they do” is the only sign needed to realise that it is not just some Big Brother oppression scheme.
At least from my perspective, because I have no doubt if that was true they’d have literally no need to do good, make sense?

a reply to: intrptr

My DNA was already procured after being arrested...

And there isn’t much they could do with it nefariously...
So I do not really worry too much about all that.

If there were door to door DNA gathering cells doing so without warrant, I’d be as vocal as anyone else.
I might have different ideas to most regarding Intel, especially on a conspiracy site, that irony does not allude me...
But I’m not a lapdog for them either.


As to collecting urine, well if they want to go all Howard Hughes and start mass-storing bottles of piss, my first instinct would be pity rather than resistance.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Yes but it's a cautionary tale as to what it can do, if people allow it to.

The FBI and DOJ didn't become politically weaponized on their own. People had to be installed and a culture had to be grown.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

The problem is the CIA do not serve the American people and only serve themselves.

In the other hand, you have some intelligence agencies including the Office of Naval Intelligence that are more trustworthy. At least ONI are a part of the US military which itself answers to the American people.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Hazardous1408

Yes but it's a cautionary tale as to what it can do, if people allow it to.

The FBI and DOJ didn't become politically weaponized on their own. People had to be installed and a culture had to be grown.

A tale I’m well aware of, my friend.

“If people allow it to”... I’ll come back to that in a second...

Yes the FBI, DOJ and literally every other Intel can and probably will be weaponised at some point...
Again, I said so in the OP...
What I don’t buy is the idea that it is the natural order, rather I believe it to be a byproduct of infiltration.

Which is to say that I do not find the premise of our myriad of Intelligence groups to be purposefully opposed to doing the good I highlighted...
Reason being, and to come back to “if people allow it”...
People have already allowed it... Right?

So as it has been allowed, with no public attempt to put it right, if they were fully determined to oppress they’ve had ample opportunity to do all of those things without fear of repercussions, which in turn would facilitate a complete lack of wasting their valuable resources on the “good things”... make sense?

To simplify, I see no logical reason to believe it’s their end game, or even epidemic, just that it is a sad byproduct of such services being wide open for infiltration.



I’ll simplify my OP too;
Put up with Intel, and try to fix the flaws as we go along...
Reject it completely for some imaginary freedom, and deal with all of those listed dangers by ourselves without the resources needed to do so...


To me, the first is much more preferable.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

The problem is the CIA do not serve the American people.

This is the kind of suspicion I’m rejecting.

The CIA is fully comprised of nothing but American people.
With American families. And American friends.

From all walks of life, with vast ranges of personalities.


The blanket approach you take is the same Swiss cheese logic I mentioned in the OP.
It doesn’t withstand a reasoned approach of scrutiny.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Well who overthrew Allende and many foreign governments and allowed many innocent people to be murdered? It definitely wasn't Army Intelligence.

Also, George HW Bush, a neocon was a Director of CIA.

Let's not forget the CIA drug trade. The CIA itself needs to be dismantled.