Knights of Columbus 4th Degree

To any brother or sir knights out there, I am taking the 4th degree this Saturday.

One simple question: So the order is named after the Goddess Columba, or were they afraid to call it the Colon Club?

The Romans used to worship a deity they called Venus Columba, Venus the Dove, symbolozing the negative female energy.

Columbus was the name he used because who told him? The people who gave him his maps wanted him to? He didn't have a choice? Shock and awe....

Originally posted by akilles
One simple question: So the order is named after the Goddess Columba, or were they afraid to call it the Colon Club?

The Romans used to worship a deity they called Venus Columba, Venus the Dove, symbolozing the negative female energy.

Columbus was the name he used because who told him? The people who gave him his maps wanted him to? He didn't have a choice? Shock and awe....

P.S. Congratulations, pbrez.

[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by akilles
Venus the Dove, symbolozing the negative female energy.

Oh jeez. Is there no intepretation you won't twist to suit your ignorance. Female energy is negative when discussing science but that is not the context here.

The female energy used in religions was seen as a more powerful cosmic energy than the male. Male energy was seen as a passive reality but it was the female energy that brought it forth to make it work to it's potential. Your interpretation is way off. It was not a case of yin and yang as you have so foolishly pigeonholed it and the female was certainly not seen as negative - far from it. It was a development and a furtherment of the positive.

In this case we are specifically discussing Columba. I don't know if you noticed (probably not knowing your research) but Columba was the name given to the dove released by Noah from the ark. The dove was an emblem of purity and simplicity. With an olive branch in it's beak it represents a sign of reconciliation with God and thus a symbol of peace.
In Islam, Mohammed is sometimes depicted with a dove sitting on his shoulder - this represents divine inspiration.
In Hinduism the dove represents the spirit.
In Christianity the Holy Spirit is sometimes portrayed as a dove.

Even if we disregard the Judaic, Hindu, Christian and Islamic interpretations and look at it's use in paganism, we can see that the symbolism of the dove was hardly the "negative energy" that you dismiss it with. To the Greeks it signified love and renewal of life and to the Ancient Egyptians it signified innocence. Now I don't know about you but I would have a major problem connecting any of those interpretions to "negative energy".


Maybe if you had studied the subject before running off at the mouth you would have known this. But then you never seem to let facts and study get in the way of your wild accusations, do you?

Ummmm isnt the knights of columbus just the catholic answer to masonry? I mean they were started so catholic men would not feel the need to become masons. So now akilles is attacking the roman catholic church as well.

And congradulations on your 4th degree. Im not very familliar with the KoC but im sure it means alot to you for you to even risk subjecting yourself to idiots like akilles to let us know about it.

Originally posted by akilles
One simple question: So the order is named after the Goddess Columba

Hmm, interesting, is this a common idea or is it uniquely yours? Becuase I seem to recall another poster here who used to bizzarely insist that it had nothing to do with 'christof colomb' but rather a goddess 'columba'. I think it was that silly little 'public gadfly' fellow who dissapeared shortly after posters theronn dunn and ltd were banned.

Change your name to Lecturer, and we're set.

I'm not here to explain the positive and negative aspects of EACH energy to you, however maybe the words others have used in the past can help you.

Creativity (+ Positive Aspect),
Self-Deception (- Negative Aspect).
Creation; the 2nd step in a process; the 2nd chakra (creativity); Female Energy.
Expression with a narrow focus.

Then you need to understand another aspect of Goddess worship, which is that it is always in secret (again, female energy of deception) and while Obelisks signify the male energy in plain view, people are much less likely to recognize tribute to Goddess worship.

Lastly, you need to understand I don't share Goddess worshippers views on sacrifice (yeah, thats part of the negative aspect again, demanding sacrifice).

Here is some descriptions of known Goddess worship, which of course is much more esoteric in the west, but the underlying beliefs are very similar,
in India,
The female possesses this dynamic element or activating energy and is the creative force.
Parvati and Uma are the beniegn aspects of the goddess as well as the destroyer goddesses Kali and Durga are in turn all aspects of the Devi, or the Great Goddess.
Kali is the negative aspect of the Goddess and symbolizes death. In this form she is sometimes considered the presiding deity of famine and disease.

Nice to see that you agree with me here though -

"The female possesses this dynamic element or activating energy and is the creative force."

Look at what I posted:

The female energy used in religions was seen as a more powerful cosmic energy than the male. Male energy was seen as a passive reality but it was the female energy that brought it forth to make it work to it's potential.

By any stretch of the imagination, female energy cannot be seen as a negative in the context that you have used it. It is the force that drives the positive.
Even when you agree with something you have to make it look like you disagree. How sad.

But for the rest of your statement? Selectively chosen again. But certainly not the whole picture.
For example, your focus on goddess worship sacrifice? I can hardly contain my pity for such an argument when anyone with half a brain would know that there were just as many sacrifices made to male deities as there were female.
And yes, you may have been able to point to negative aspects of Devi, but you freely admit that she contains positive aspects as well. In my book that doesn't make her a negative. She is balance.

I'm not here to explain the positive and negative aspects of EACH energy to you.....

You're not here to explain anything. Quite simply, you can't. You don't have any understanding of the subject.

And the words that you use? "Deceptive"? "Negative"? "Secret"?
It looks to me like you just hate women, akilles.



But anyway. Let's not sidetrack the subject shall we? Your tactic of being proven wrong and then trying to sidestep to another argument won't hide your ignorance this time.
Explain to me how Columba is evil. Show me how you can disagree with what I posted previously.

History

Growth of the Knights of Columbus
On Oct. 2, 1881, a small group of men met in the basement of St. Mary's Church on Hillhouse Avenue in New Haven, Connecticut. Called together by their 29-year-old parish priest, Father Michael J. McGivney, these men formed a fraternal society that would one day become the world's largest Catholic family fraternal service organization. They sought strength in solidarity, and security through unity of purpose and devotion to a holy cause: they vowed to be defenders of their country, their families and their faith. These men were bound together by the ideal of Christopher Columbus, the discoverer of the Americas, the one whose hand brought Christianity to the New World. Their efforts came to fruition with the incorporation of the Knights of Columbus on March 29, 1882. They were Knights of Columbus.
www.kofc.org...

I have no idea why I have to do all the research for you akilles, It would seem logical to check out what the KoC say before jumping in with yet another mad theory.

Chief, congratulations on you new degree, I hope very much you enjoy the experience.

Awesome pbrez!!! Congratulations on Saturday on becoming a SIR KNIGHT!!! and also your journey into complete knighthood.

Leveller, check this out.

When you FOCUS on the negative aspects of a deity when WORSHIPPING it, you are worshipping the negative aspect.

Therefore, if the Goddess worship takes place in secret, and without many people even realizing they are worshipping the Goddess, then it is focussing Energy in the negative spectrum!

Here is an easy one for you to understand, Dove = positive symbol, innocence and all that.
Dove upside down (no dove flies its head into the ground, or is seen flying from above) = Negative Aspect!

I obviously clarified that it was not Ying/Yang in m view, and I think its funny that you think I hate women. My disregard (no hate, even for you) is for LIARS.

This Knight bull# is obviously not inspired by Columbus, because that wasn't his name! They would use the name he called himself if they were honoring HIM wouldn't they? Next I'll hear that America is named after Amerigo Vespucci.

Please don't tell me what 'know the ledge' I have, you Masons do it constantly.

Originally posted by akilles


Here is an easy one for you to understand, Dove = positive symbol, innocence and all that.
Dove upside down (no dove flies its head into the ground, or is seen flying from above) = Negative Aspect!

Please don't tell me what 'know the ledge' I have, you Masons do it constantly.

Don't get your knickers in a twist just because you stand corrected (as usual).

Contrary to your claim, the dove is flying downwards and is not upside down. It is heading downwards and pointing to the Earth because it is coming from the Heavens. It's used in Christianity to symbolise the Holy Spirit returning to Earth and is mentioned in several places in the Bible. If you had bothered to research, you would have seen this.

As for goddess worship taking place in secret? Well, it seems to me that there was a very good reason for this.
Historically, ignorant, blind, foolish, brainwashed people had the habit of persecuting those who the didn't agree with, so secrecy was required to survive or to practice the forbidden (by the ignorant) religion. Fortunately those days are now gone and those people no longer have the means to make other people's lives hell and destroy them. In fact, probably about the worst they can do now is spread lies about them. Ring any bells?
Using secrecy to stay alive is hardly negative is it?

My avatar is the symbol of the 4th degree of the Knights of Columbus. You can use this avatar when you become 4th as well pbrez if you like!!

Originally posted by akilles
They would use the name he called himself if they were honoring HIM wouldn't they?

Christof columb, columbus, columbo, whats the diff?

Next I'll hear that America is named after Amerigo Vespucci.

What? Uhmm, am I missing something? America is called america because they figured amerigo was the one the found the mainland.

Originally posted by akilles
One simple question: So the order is named after the Goddess Columba, or were they afraid to call it the Colon Club?

The Romans used to worship a deity they called Venus Columba, Venus the Dove, symbolozing the negative female energy.

Columbus was the name he used because who told him? The people who gave him his maps wanted him to? He didn't have a choice? Shock and awe....

As posted before the Order is named after Columbus. I suggest you read a book called Faith and Fraternity to get the whole history of the Knights. Another thing is we don’t secretly worship a female deity, I think you are into the Di Vinci code to much. We are just Catholic men looking to improve are communities and provide charity to the needy, that is about it there are no secrets other than the ceremonies and that is so it doesn’t ruin it for the next guy.

Nygan, either you get it or you don't. There is no amount of time allotted for you to 'get it', nor is there a 'reward' besides 'getting it'.

His NAME was Chris Colon.

When he was sponsored by the richest in Spain (a little help from his friends the DeMedici's as well) he was exploring under the given name Christopher Columbus, so using that name simply states you are doing as he did, serving his rich masters obediently (obvious by the fact people don't even know how he signed his OWN name).

America is not named for Amerigo Vespucci, although you could say he was named Amerigo, you'd be lying out your arse as:
the problem with that is that most documents have him known as Alberico Vespucci. One other problem with Vespucci's claim is that although it is clear he did indeed later visit the New World, there is no evidence to support the contention that he even took that voyage in 1497.
Some will even go lengths to claim it is STILL named after him, after he had changed his name to "Amerigo" after visiting a region in what is now Nicaragua known as Amerrique, which was rich in gold.

The man who donated A LARGE sum to John Cabot's voyage was a certain Welsh man (a royal you could say, as Queen Eliz. II is his descendant) and his name was Richard Ap Meryk, the family of Amerike, note also its well-known stars and stripes -- are very similar to those found on the Amerike family's coat of arms.

Also, note the REAL evidence:
American: Main Race
The USA: Hate Us
Australia: A Trial USA

The United States of America:
Attaineth its cause, freedom

The American Indian: I am in a thinned race.

Norm Macdonald: Cold Random Man
Mahatma Ghandi :Agh! A mad hit-man
Christopher Columbus :He is much corrupt slob.

And the final character judgement by anagram:
Real Madrid star David Beckham:
Am dark bastard Devil made rich.

Originally posted by akilles
His NAME was Chris Colon.

Where you getting this information? Making it up? I find no sources that say Christopher Columbus' name was Chris Colon. That doesn't even make sense.

Christopher Columbus
(Italian CRISTOFORO COLOMBO; Spanish CRISTOVAL COLON.)

Born at Genoa, or on Genoese territory, probably 1451; died at Valladolid, Spain, 20 May 1506.

taken from
www.newadvent.org...

obviously spanish for Columbus is COLON, Cristoval Colon.

Italian form of his name was Cristoforo colombo, these are just variations of his name in other languages. In english, he was Christopher Columbus.

[edit on 15-2-2005 by chief_counsellor]

Originally posted by akilles
Nygan, either you get it or you don't. There is no amount of time allotted for you to 'get it', nor is there a 'reward' besides 'getting it'.

His NAME was Chris Colon.

When he was sponsored by the richest in Spain (a little help from his friends the DeMedici's as well) he was exploring under the given name Christopher Columbus, so using that name simply states you are doing as he did, serving his rich masters obediently (obvious by the fact people don't even know how he signed his OWN name).

America is not named for Amerigo Vespucci, although you could say he was named Amerigo, you'd be lying out your arse as:
the problem with that is that most documents have him known as Alberico Vespucci. One other problem with Vespucci's claim is that although it is clear he did indeed later visit the New World, there is no evidence to support the contention that he even took that voyage in 1497.
Some will even go lengths to claim it is STILL named after him, after he had changed his name to "Amerigo" after visiting a region in what is now Nicaragua known as Amerrique, which was rich in gold.

The man who donated A LARGE sum to John Cabot's voyage was a certain Welsh man (a royal you could say, as Queen Eliz. II is his descendant) and his name was Richard Ap Meryk, the family of Amerike, note also its well-known stars and stripes -- are very similar to those found on the Amerike family's coat of arms.

So lets see if I have this correct then.

Christopher Columbus was exploring under the name of Christopher columbus but the entire Catholic Church has entered into a conspiracy along with all the History books and teachings of shool teachers to subvert this name and not change it to Chris Colon, which he kept secret.
www.newadvent.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

The Americas
en.wikipedia.org...


(Elizabeth, granddaughter of one of his ancestors, Hywel Ap Meurig, married Sir John Poyntz in 1343. Queen Elizabeth II is descended from their Tudor lineage, as was Diana, Princess of Wales, via the Spencer family connections.)
So there is a feint line of contact there as you suggest.

The BBC have a number of articles that would seem to support your hypothesis akillies,
The Naming of America
By Peter Macdonald
www.bbc.co.uk...

But with the lack of evidence available even now , I fail to see how or why these few men that started the KoC would have had any reason or profit in taking anything other than the widely held view that Christopher Columbus was a good name to choose when assigning a name to their new venture.

One has to wonder how far they would have got if was called.
The Knights of Chris Colon

Everyone would have been going round saying Christopher who?

It has generally been accepted that he was Genoese, although doubts have persistently been voiced regarding this. His name in Spanish is Cristóbal Colón, in Portuguese Cristóvão Colombo and in Italian Cristoforo Colombo. Columbus is a Latinate form of his surname. The Latin roots of his name can be translated "Christ-bearer, Colonizer". Columbus' signature reads Xpo ferens ("Bearing Christ")

taken from en.wikipedia.org...

thanks to Bill

Sorry Chief, but if I go to another country my name stays exactly the same.

You make it sound like he actually called himself Cristoforo Colombo at some point, or was legally documented using that name! You would be wrong, but thats what it sounds like your saying.

However, if you are saying the Italian sponsors referred to him as Chris Colombo (or Columbus) then you would be right, and agreeing with everything I said.

Your reverse translation saying Columbus is obviously Spanish for Colon is the purest of the pure bunk, congrats.