H&M clothing chain latest target of racial hysteria

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: StallionDuck

That being said, my point is exactly that. I didn't live then, so unless you brought that junk to my attention, I would have never become aware of it.

And this is why you aren't comprehending why some people take offense.

In the black community, those types of advertisements are known which is why we take offense as we view it from a different perspective. My parents and grandparents lived through it, so even though I didn't directly, I still am sensitive to it.

My wife and I were talking about this last night. She commented that she had gotten a onesie for our son as a gift and it was a monkey theme and she never put it on because of some of the still latent feelings/knowledge we have about how monkeys was used as a slur to denigrate us. It didn't matter if the onsie was cute.

I totally get and support her personal choice. There are baby clothes I was gifted that I didn't want to put on my own kids for similar reasons.

However, there seems to be this suggestion that the 'black community as a whole' has decided that H&M (and possibly the child's parents) were wrong to have this child model that hoodie and there should have been no personal choice in the matter.

If the 'white community as a whole' was making decisions for me, as an individual, I would not like it. And there are groups of white people that do try to speak for the 'white community as a whole.'

***

BTW, I am curious if a black or a white person gifted the onesie?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

It can't be the "black community as a whole". I know a NIgerian man who thinks the uproar is too stupid to really even acknowledge. Then again, my neices are black. One of them is a social justice champion, and is all up in arms over it (and a dozen other things).

I don't think the "black community" really cares. I think people who want to make cheap points in the social issues debate care. And those are the squeakiest wheels among us. Shrill, annoying, squeaky wheels.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: MotherMayEye

It can't be the "black community as a whole". I know a NIgerian man who thinks the uproar is too stupid to really even acknowledge. Then again, my neices are black. One of them is a social justice champion, and is all up in arms over it (and a dozen other things).

I don't think the "black community" really cares. I think people who want to make cheap points in the social issues debate care. And those are the squeakiest wheels among us. Shrill, annoying, squeaky wheels.

I agree. There can be no singular voice for the black community...or white community...or women...etc... And I'm just paraphrasing some of the comments I've read.

And, I also agree with the last part of your comment. I suspect most black people have better things to do than worry about this in any meaningful way. But those who do want to make something meaningful of it are not doing themselves or their cause any favors.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

That's pretty awesome!

It's interesting because today, that wouldn't be frowned upon. When I was younger, my mom used to consider herself a gypsy soul. Today, many people would love to adapt to that lifestyle, maybe because they really didn't know what it entailed or just the idea sounded cool. I look at my own culture that way. Shunned for so very many years, now it's cool to be Cajun. ...even though many people confuse Cajun and Creole, and bunch us up all together, lol.


I like the diversity of minorities because anything that I'm not used to day to day fascinates me. I don't fear racial differences because they're interesting. I want to know all about it. I'm more prone to befriending someone because they're different than someone I've got too much in common with.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

who'd have known a gypsy texan !

thats interesting man , well in Europe there was no lower than a gypsy so Ive heard!

There are so many people involved in the libertarian social media movement in the world today , and many but not all do it solely for moral superiorirty , to serve their ego to say " look world I am campassionate and I care , you should praise me and elevate me to social fame"

it serves no other purpose but to divide and boost the ego

a reply to: StallionDuck

you live in the right place to have multiculturalism. If you actually live there, its a great place. You can walk whereever you want no problem. To drive in to do something is a misery that likely tops the first 6 out of the 9 hells.

a reply to: sapien82

I grew up with a kid who was more poor than we were. We both went to the Boys Club, as it was a very inexpensive form of babysitting for our single mothers.

He became quite racist in response to the way he was treated by some of the kids at the boys club. We were the only white kids there, and he was bullied quite a bit by both black and hispanic kids. Were white kids there he'd have been bullied by them, too....but since there wasn't an opportunity to experience that, his intellectual processing grid didn't graft a response into it.

On a side note, his bullying is what made me have the "white knight" complex that I have. Seeing him being bullied as a physically weaker kid, simply for being physically weaker, sickened me. And altered the way I see the world because of it.

I think the majority of our worldview is based on mental response to experience. Whether we go through it ourselves, or just witness others going through it.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: MotherMayEye

It can't be the "black community as a whole". I know a NIgerian man who thinks the uproar is too stupid to really even acknowledge. Then again, my neices are black. One of them is a social justice champion, and is all up in arms over it (and a dozen other things).

I don't think the "black community" really cares. I think people who want to make cheap points in the social issues debate care. And those are the squeakiest wheels among us. Shrill, annoying, squeaky wheels.

I agree. There can be on singular voice for the black community...or white community...or women...etc... And I'm just paraphrasing some of the comments I've read.

And, I also agree with the last part of your comment. I suspect most black people have better things to do than worry about this in any meaningful way. But those who do want to make something meaningful of it are not doing themselves or their cause any favors.

There is no single voice in the black community. Of course, there are blacks who don't care or don't think it is a big deal. Honestly, I couldn't give a sh*t about it other than express my opinion that I can't believe they'd be so tone deaf. I won't be marching. I won't be protesting or boycotting. My wife will still buy a ton of baby clothes at H&M for our kids.

When I say "black community as a whole" I generally mean that if you were to probably approach 10 black folks randomly, I'd be a steak dinner 7 or 8 out of 10 would be like WTF? with that ad... Those 7 or 8 people aren't going to care beyond just expressing an opinion such as I have...

I don't think this is some form of systematic racism designed by Europeans to keep the kings and queens of african ancestry down. Sarcasm off...

I think with social media what happens is that opinions are easily expressed over a wide audience and it makes it seem like people care more than they actually do. The reason it probably seems like black people are making a big deal out of it is because to many of us, it is such an obvious screw up that in a way people find it so comical that the story is getting shared a lot.

a reply to: Edumakated

If you are from a country that doesn't have all the baggage that America has, would you not agree that the context with which your opinion derives is completely missing?

To me, it displays a complete lack of racism, as no one involved was even aware that it could offend. Because they have zero context for that from which to work.

To me, we should all aspire to be like whoever was involved in this ad. My dream is that one day we will, and at that point Dr. King's dream will be full realized.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Yes sir!

Sometimes I feel that's the best part about living in Louisiana. Sometimes it's not. Racism can go either way there, though. Sometimes it's rampant and other times (depending where) it's very much family and friends don't observe color. When I was a kid, I wasn't exactly the one wearing all of the top of the line clothing that the cool kids wore so I and other cajuns like me were usually in the same group as "colored folk". We didn't say "black person" because that was looked down upon. You referred to someone by their name but "colored" was acceptable when describing. We all hung out together, we ate together, we played together, we went to church together, we laughed, drank and danced together. The unspoken rule was.... 'you can enjoy life together and equals but you don't mix'. Many believed in keeping our culture pure. HOWEVER.... Racial couples DID exist AND it was NOT looked down upon. It just didn't happen often.

Today it's more common. Like you, I have mixed children all over in my family on either side.

I will say that racism exists to some extent everywhere and I'll admit to it and say that it is a problem. However, I do see and recognize that many people simply grow out of it. We're human and there is pride and prejudice but we learn... most of us, at least. For the younger generation, racism isn't really as rampant as it was in my age group back in those days. I think we're going in the right direction, it's just taking time and patience.



Though, I live both in LA as well as TX. I'm in Austin one week and in LA (supposed to be) the next because of my field of work. I tend to stay in TX more often because... Austin is GREAT! My first love is music and you just can't beat Austin. I look at Texas as my home away from home. Laws wise, "mostly" I look at Texas as Louisiana that figured it out. Most anyways. There are some, however... Texas can make or break you in a breath's amount of time. You have to be careful here. Stuff that you can get away with in most states, you can't do that here.

a reply to: Edumakated

I think with social media what happens is that opinions are easily expressed over a wide audience and it makes it seem like people care more than they actually do. The reason it probably seems like black people are making a big deal out of it is because to many of us, it is such an obvious screw up that in a way people find it so comical that the story is getting shared a lot.

That is a VERY valid point. On this we agree 100% Though, it's not really comical. It often feels like a witch hunt against some white people. Maybe you can understand that because so many are tired of getting crap shoveled on top of us from one day to the next. It's only comical to me because, yet again... someone got it wrong without looking at the big picture.

originally posted by: Edumakated

I think with social media what happens is that opinions are easily expressed over a wide audience and it makes it seem like people care more than they actually do. The reason it probably seems like black people are making a big deal out of it is because to many of us, it is such an obvious screw up that in a way people find it so comical that the story is getting shared a lot.

Calling it a 'nearly comical screw up' is not making a big deal of it though. And it's a perfectly reasonable assessment.

The piling on does exaggerate the 'outrage,' I completely agree with that.

Plus, the news article I first read on it characterized the response as 'outrage' and 'backlash.' That doesn't help keep things in perspective.


***

Not to nag...but I really am curious if a white or black person gifted that onesie!

a reply to: Edumakated

True, it's more of a WTF moment than anything else, what I do find more annoying is folks dismissive attitude, like get over it or stop you're making me feel bad, every year on Halloween , folks including liberal Hollywood have to go out do the apology tour because they can't stop with the blackface.

I'm not saying ban images that would piss most blk folks off, but don't tell us to be kool with it when it's not.

I'm also aware that all blackface are not equal, like say in parts of Europe where folk traditions centuries old are imitating the Moors of the past, performing mock battles, dances etc.. or the tradition of Black Pete in Holland context matters.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I know how that is man my mum would send me and my sister to sunday school because its cheap child care, I didnt learn very much about god as I wasnt even interested.

Aye I understand where you are coming from no one who knows the difference between right and wrong can sit idly by and not defend those being abused.


Edumakated is right, there appears to be a larger propotion of people who appear to care more than they do , and that is simply because they want to have their ego stroked to feel right and just by taking an intellectual or morally superioir stance on social media.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Edumakated

If you are from a country that doesn't have all the baggage that America has, would you not agree that the context with which your opinion derives is completely missing?

To me, it displays a complete lack of racism, as no one involved was even aware that it could offend. Because they have zero context for that from which to work.

To me, we should all aspire to be like whoever was involved in this ad. My dream is that one day we will, and at that point Dr. King's dream will be full realized.

I can completely see how it may have been over looked. H&M certainly has some what of a pass in that they are not an American company. However, American companies do stuff all the time like that...

I think it is just mainly because often times they lack diversity in the department and no one points out these issues prior to release.

I recall a Ford advertisement for a mustang back in the mid 90s. The ad features Tyson Beckford, a black male super model driving a yellow mustang convertible. He pulls up to an intersection and there is a woman in a vintage red mustang. She says "High Yellow"...

The ad was mildly controversial as it was before social media, but some black folks were upset because the term "high yellow" has a very negative connotation and we couldn't believe Ford would not be aware of this.. harkens back to colorism issues of light skin vs dark skin within the black community.

Here is the ad (or a version of it).

a reply to: Edumakated

Whereas there are many folks who think that is just flat out ridiculous, as the intent to offend was not there. Some folks just took it upon themselves to be offended anyway.

I get what you are saying. But it has to be balanced with logic and reason. If someone is overweight and they hear someone else talking about a big, fat beetle crawling by on the ground...the overweight person would be an imbecile to be offended at that.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Edumakated

I think with social media what happens is that opinions are easily expressed over a wide audience and it makes it seem like people care more than they actually do. The reason it probably seems like black people are making a big deal out of it is because to many of us, it is such an obvious screw up that in a way people find it so comical that the story is getting shared a lot.

Calling it a 'nearly comical screw up' is not making a big deal of it though. And it's a perfectly reasonable assessment.

The piling on does exaggerate the 'outrage,' I completely agree with that.

Plus, the news article I first read on it characterized the response as 'outrage' and 'backlash.' That doesn't help keep things in perspective.


***

Not to nag...but I really am curious if a white or black person gifted that onesie!

Honestly, I don't even remember if the person that gifted it was white. Truthfully, there are some monkey themed clothing our kid wears. However, there are some designs that are little more cringe worthy in how they create an offensive image. A monkey logo isn't all that offensive, but a shirt with Monkey written across it can be. It is nuanced.

It is ironic though considering for a time, the hip hop community couldn't stop wearing BAPE (Bathing Ape) clothing brand...so to now act all outraged is a bit farcical.

originally posted by: Edumakated
However, American companies do stuff all the time like that...

I think it is just mainly because often times they lack diversity in the department and no one points out these issues prior to release.

Having worked as a graphic designer for 20 years, I can tell you my experience is that diversity (and sensitivity to it) is the primary issue that every client and project manager I have ever worked with has been concerned with.

I've placed photos of black people, asian people, and women on covers in favor of white men, many times. I've tossed aside photos of white men in favor of more photos of black people, asian people, and women throughout publications and in ads at the request of clients and at my own choosing because I know it's a real concern for every client. I can recall being asked to swap out a photo of two white people eating in a restaurant, in an ad, because the server was black.

My husband is also a graphic designer and I know his experience is the same.

I think you would be surprised at how high a priority diversity and sensitivity to diversity issues actually is in the world of marketing.

That's exactly why I said calling this a 'nearly comical screw up' was a perfectly reasonable assessment. I am surprised that anyone in marketing signed off on that photo.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

And hence , I wonder what went wrong in the ad oversight meeting, like hey switch the black kid to the lion hoodie and the White kid to the monkey one, also some agencies like to push the envelope.
Another thing it may have made a slight difference if it was not featuring a kid.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Edumakated
However, American companies do stuff all the time like that...

I think it is just mainly because often times they lack diversity in the department and no one points out these issues prior to release.

Having worked as a graphic designer for 20 years, I can tell you my experience is that diversity (and sensitivity to it) is the primary issue that every client and project manager I have ever worked with has been concerned with.

I've placed photos of black people, asian people, and women on covers in favor of white men, many times. I've tossed aside photos of white men in favor of more photos of black people, asian people, and women throughout publications and in ads at the request of clients and at my own choosing because I know it's a real concern for every client. I can recall being asked to swap out a photo of two white people eating in a restaurant, in an ad, because the server was black.

My husband is also a graphic designer and I know his experience is the same.

I think you would be surprised at how high a priority diversity and sensitivity to diversity issues actually is in the world of marketing.

That's exactly why I said calling this a 'nearly comical screw up' was a perfectly reasonable assessment. I am surprised that anyone in marketing signed off on that photo.

I've worked in brand management for a time, so I know some companies most certainly care about diversity. However, there clearly was not a check at some point in the process. Usually when you see these types of mistakes it is because the offended party may not be represented, so it simply isn't brought to anyone's attention that it could be problematic.

I don't know how things work at a clothing retailer, but since H&M has thousands of clothing pieces, I can see how something like this may have slipped through. A brand manager would not be looking at each model photo for every single shirt variation.