Bigelow, UFOs, MUFON and ‘DeLonge’ Road to AATIP

a reply to: Arouet

All I asked was "Who is wrong?"

Your reactions, responses and verbosity have all been noted for future reference.

I'll be honest, I'm a bit spooked by the Bigelow connection, Hal Puthoff's presence in all this, and the way Elizondo talked about beliefs in "demonic forces" coming from higher up in the DoD. A lot of people took it to mean dumb superstitions were holding back disclosure, but if you've read anything on Skinwalker Ranch, you know "demonic forces" is not that unreasonable a description. It was a serious investigation by the DIA, but it all reads like a campfire ghost story.

I was reading this the other day: www.slideshare.net...

Of note is the wording at the end of the first paragraph of the Introduction. "there is considerable evidence that the phenomenon is real." Hmmmmm. An interesting choice of words.

It's suggested that the tic-tacs can pre-empt pilots' movements, and the descriptions of nuclear missile silo incidents suggest remote manipulation; not just an EM pulse that destroyed all electronics, but some kind of remote action that specifically disabled the weapons, if you will.

I wonder how far they'll take this, but it feels like the potential space aliens are nothing compared to this "truth" that's coming out. We're entering a new world where humans may have innate extra-sensory powers and every unexplained phenomenon can now be related to UFO activity.

Elizondo did mention something about AATIP being created in the wake of 9/11; basically, that the extra defense funding that resulted allowed the program to see the light of day. Who was enemy number one on 9/11? Not Afghanistan, not Iraq... It was religious fundamentalism!

I propose this new conspiracy theory: the DoD is trying to protect America by erasing religion off the face of the Earth. Jesus doesn't exist, but aliens do, and they can hear your thoughts, so you can still pray away. Oh yeah, and the government's psychic spies can hear your thoughts too, so behave. If we eventually find out that it was all a big lie, it'll have been generations since anyone took religion seriously. Mission accomplished?

a reply to: pigsy2400

You're 100 percent right. Ufology is not being sidesteped. It has a tiny demographic inconsequential to the larger population. And maybe its in some bodies best interest to lead the public into beleving its alienz.

A simplified version of my take on the TTSA is this. It was a program designed to collect suspicious or unidentified aircraft info to analyze if any of them were not ours. Meaning. Not the USAs. You know to see if any adversarial countries had developed similar or any technology capable of invading our air space.

I'm betting it got cancled or back shelved because all the stuff they analysed turned out to be american and or allies and not anything they had to be worried about. There's still some version of the program out there no doubt still looking for any evidence of foreign superior technology...just in case.

F18s pilots aren't generally privy to classified air force programs or assets and vice versa unless there's a specific reason they need to work together using one of those black assets. A lot of those assets aren't air force or navy. A lot of them even their own branches aren't aware of. They're secret for a reason. There's lots of experimental stuff out there and assets that will never, ever see the light of day...even to pilots serving in the military...unless there's a real good reason they need to know about it. Hell the pilots that refuel black aircraft don't even know or get to see what their refuelling. The boom operator. We'll that's a different story. But if the guy flying the kc135 is clueless as to what's just off his tail that he's refueling if its a black asset. what are the odds a navy F18 pilot is going to know about some top secret unassociated, got nothing to do with them, black asset capable if doing weird things. So people need to stop using the two F18 pilots account as useful evidence. It means squat.

As for why if the USA has such impressive technology isn't it being used for war or exploring the stars or in the public sector.

Well how do you know if its being used or not. How do you know the technology wouldn't be disruptive either in a safety way (ie its dangerous) or economically. Maybe its safe to use flying around earth but no so much when up at full speed trying to do some interstellar voyage and they gotta wait until material science or other technologies catch up to make it more feasible to use for those purposes.

I dunno. There's lots to consider and think about.

a reply to: Arouet

You haven't heard of UFOs hovering over missile silos and disabling them so much these days. Maybe it was just their drive fields or some artifact thereof interfering with electronics and other things. And that nowadays the things run ettr and their drive fields don't bleed out of control and mess with things in the vicinity.
Heard of any recent UFO reports where everybody's radio goes all wonky when its in the area. I haven't. Now a days you gotta be really close for that to happen if at all. That bleeds dangerous for the "UFO" crew too.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Exactly....

AATIP did exist, yet its actual role is being inflated dramatically to fit what TTSA want people to believe and to fit their self interests to give them "credibility".

The video's for starters were never declassified because they were never classified in the first place, sensitive maybe, but then to be on a German film makers website brings up more questions and invalidates thier original claims.


TTSA audience isn't the general public nor is it ufology, it's Congress, because dollars.

Boomers..now that would be an interesting job not many green ladies in this thread bass

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Arouet

All I asked was "Who is wrong?"

Your reactions, responses and verbosity have all been noted for future reference.

Red flags all over this reply. Hmmm.

1.) This is the first time that someone has pitched out the old "tinfoil hat" pejorative following a description of the very common and widely known concept of human intuition, in a conversation with me anyway. If you haven't experienced a single moment like I've described, in your entire life, then you're the anomaly. It's such a common feature of being a human that the debate is whether there's a prosaic explanation, not whether it's a real experience.

2.) I've seen every video clip and read every article that I could find about this story, and Luis Elizondo has never mentioned "'demonic forces' coming from higher up in the DoD," not that I can recall anyway. What he did say was that some people with fundamental religious beliefs (presumably some of the far-right Congressional representatives and/or DoD management) opposed the AATIP because they think that UFOs are manifestations of demonic forces, which is obviously absurd, and a problem. It's frightening to think that people with that mentality have any power in our government, and especially with our military forces.

3.) The quote you cited from that NIDS article "there is considerable evidence that the phenomenon is real," is simply saying that there's considerable evidence of animal mutilations. Animal mutilation is "the phenomenon" that he's talking about (to my ear it sounds like the wording of Colm Kelleher, the director and lead scientist at NIDS). I think that Chris O'Brien would probably agree that it is in fact real.

4.) You seem to be implying that the Tic-Tac ufo and the incidents over nuclear bases like the Maelstrom AFB case, are somehow evidence of ESP or something - but that's a wildly unfounded perspective, imo. It seems clear to me that this is a technological issue. Apparently some of these advanced nonterrestrial devices can easily penetrate our electronics systems with their own electronic systems, and use that advantage to operate our technology and retrieve data from it. I see nothing eerie or mystical about it.

a reply to: Arouet

Who are you talking to now?

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Arouet

Who are you talking to now?

Fair enough. I can understand the impulse to paranoia, given all that's come before in this area between hoaxes and disinfo etc. (and even some of the outlandish trolling that has gone on here recently). And yes, it is alarming that these unknown devices are operating in a covert manner, and they can clearly outperform our most advanced known technology, and they have been around for quite awhile now - at least 70+ years. But on the other hand they don't seem to be acting in an overtly hostile manner, so, based on the aerial observations alone, my best guess is that they're simply observing, and occasionally toying with us.

Bigelow seems to be in the middle of things in recent decades, but apparently that's simply because he's been interested in these subjects for many decades and he has had the money to fund various investigative efforts. I assume that he'd like to figure out the propulsion principle of these devices, for entirely pragmatic and self-interested reasons. I don't see anything diabolical about that though. I'll have to listen to Corbell's interview - I've never dug deeply into Bigelow or his projects. I know that there's still a lot of fallout over his involvement with MUFON years ago. Things often get ugly where money comes into play.

Sigh. I wish you'd think more open mindedly about the UFOs and their effects on electronics.


Mm maybe they're not alien.

a reply to: Arouet

I think it’s you who has little knowledge of what is going on or has been going on.

You are the proverbial believer of what the government always puts out to scam and deceive, or worst.

You don’t look at things on the surface only and judge them you look at the whole picture.

You defend TTSA so enthusiastically, then tell us why they don’t even have the term UFO in their site at all.

Answer some of the questions about their finances MM has brought up and many others regarding the spies and ex-spies all over the place.

The fact is you don’t read between the lines you don’t apparently read at all.

Since you have no perception of anything I posted.

a reply to: mirageman

He's talking to himself, or to TTSA to get brownie points

a reply to: Arouet

My whole take on TTSA has nothing to do with my ideas regarding UFOs.

Where're some are skeptics, I am not. I believe that UFOs are here primarily to monitor nuclear weapons. I’ve posted that numerous times.

TTSA, IMO is a disinformation program, to continue the ongoing control of the UFO narrative.

You believe TTSA is a Mickey Mouse club of some sort

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Arouet

I think it’s you who has little knowledge of what is going on or has been going on.

It's nothing personal, but I don't take anyone's word for anything - it's too easy to hear a skewed version of things if your attention waivers for a moment or whatnot. And I'd rather cut my own hand off than pay to listen to the C2C archives, so I'll have to put your retelling of Elizondo's statement into my grey basket until I hear it for myself. I've heard every other interview that he's given (because only the C2C interview has a paywall), and he's never said anything that indicates to me that he would believe in "demonic forces," in the DoD or anywhere else for that matter. I do recall his dismay with others who believe that "demonic forces" are associated with the UFO topic, however.

I don't feel that the UFO evidence is all that thin anymore, honestly. There have been so many credible witness cases and radar-visual cases and so forth that at this point I feel that it's more about getting the empirical evidence to prove it to others, than it is about proving to myself that it's real. The Nimitz case is an excellent example - I see no reason to suspect that those pilots are lying, but the DoD is clearly holding out on us. The DoD has everything: the full videos and the radar data and whatever else, and yet we only get to see a meaningless little long-range clip from a subsequent long-range intercept attempt. Not a single second of Cmdr. Fravor's encounter has been released - that's what burns me up. The TTSA seems to be doing whatever they can to get these videos declassified and released, but the DoD is playing games and giving us the floor clippings instead of the compelling evidence from these encounters. So I think it's a mistake to blame TTSA for what the DoD is doing.

You're so blindly biased against this story and everyone involved with it that I honestly can't tell if you do this intentionally or if it's an honest mistake: FYI Jeremy Corbell never claimed that he had that footage two years before it was released. People jumped to that conclusion all on their own. In fact the opposite is true: Corbell went out of his way to explain to people that he had simply deleted an old video and uploaded the new one, but Vimeo displays the original upload date on each link, instead of displaying the actual upload date of each video.

a reply to: Arouet

You're right the pilots aren't lying....and the dod is holding out. Let that sink in for a moment and see how much wider that blows everything possibility wise.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Arouet

You're right the pilots aren't lying....and the dod is holding out. Let that sink in for a moment and see how much wider that blows everything possibility wise.

Yes and what we need around here is less wild-eyed conspiracy theories founded on baseless suspicions and false premises.

"Counterintelligence" is a vast domain within the intelligence community, which is mostly dedicated to heroic work like stopping terrorist attacks before they happen and protecting our intelligence assets from enemy intrusions. You (and the other conspiracy theorists here) are conflating "counterintelligence" with "disinformation and PsyOps," which is only a small subset of counterintelligence activities. We have zero reason to think that Luis Elizondo ever perpetrated disinfo operations against anyone, and it's actually perfectly clear to me that he's a straight-talking solider, not some sniveling liar (like we see on the corporate news media 24/7). The fact that he was placed in charge of the AATIP investigative effort indicates to me that he's an intelligence analyst, not a disinformation operative.

Everything about his story looks credible to me: he ran the program for several years until he left the DoD late last year, for the reasons he's given, and now he's basically working on our behalf to get data declassified and released. But he's not in control of what data is determined to be fit for public consumption - that's an independent internal process, and clearly the DoD is only willing to give us the floor clippings from these incidents...which isn't terribly surprising; we know that the DoD is excessively secretive and loathes to share anything of any real intelligence value..

If Luis Elizondo hadn't gone public we wouldn't know about the existence of the AATIP and we wouldn't have any clips at all, and we wouldn't have the riveting testimony of Cmdrs. Fravor and Slaight either.

These facts make it crystal clear to me that this man is a friend, not a foe. The fact that the majority of the most vocal people in this community can't tell the difference between one and the other, only proves to me how deeply dysfunctional and self-defeating the entire ufology community has become.

a reply to: Arouet

We were fine here until you showed up, frankly

What about TDL. How or why did zondo hook up with him?


Why did zondo say he left disgruntled and then later everything is hunky dory

The pilots were WTF,the ground controllers were WTF and the DoD say its maybe a UFO..

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Arouet

We were fine here until you showed up, franklyWhat about TDL. How or why did zondo hook up with him? Why did zondo say he left disgruntled and then later everything is hunky dory

Again: it's a logical fallacy to assume that D = X just because A and B and C all equal X. We have zero evidence to support any of your speculation on this - that's all it is, idle speculation. Which everyone is doing right now.

Apparently most people have a completely broken BS detector. I've seen and heard every interview with this man, other than the C2C interview because I will not give C2C any of my money, and it's as plain as the nose on my face that this guy is honest and forthright. Obviously he has to walk a fine line where classified info is concerned, but that's perfectly reasonable - he's legally bound to his security oath.

And he's working to get more data released, so it makes no sense to me to attack his character and go around promoting imaginary conspiracy theories. If we should be peeved and paranoid about anyone's involvement here, it's the DoD for holding back on the release of the actually meaningful data that we all know they have - like the entire Cmdr Fravor intercept attempt footage and radar data and those three dozen technical reports.

In what universe does the DoD have any right to withhold that evidence? We paid for all of their toys and we pay for all of their salaries, and given that they've already determined that these exotic devices don't belong to any terrestrial military inventory, then it falls into the category of "scientific data about our place in the universe," like the Hubble telescope photos. Withholding the evidence that we want to see is like the DoD deciding that we don't have a right to images of the cosmos that we live in: that's insane and totally unjustifiable.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Arouet

My whole take on TTSA has nothing to do with my ideas regarding UFOs.

Where're some are skeptics, I am not. I believe that UFOs are here primarily to monitor nuclear weapons. I’ve posted that numerous times.

TTSA, IMO is a disinformation program, to continue the ongoing control of the UFO narrative.

You believe TTSA is a Mickey Mouse club of some sort

No Willtell, that's obviously a facile and disingenuous comparison. I provided a perfectly rational argument, based on the substantial empirical evidence that I posted for everyone to see, and which is well-founded on the basis of all the other extremely credible data that we now have that the "Five Eyes" intelligence network participates in exactly that kind of activity. Such as this chilling little document that Edward Snowden leaked, which shows the wide range of incredibly sophisticated and sleazy disinformation and perception management strategies that the intelligence agencies deploy online:

The Art of Deception: Training for a New Generation of Online Covert Operations
edwardsnowden.com...

In fact I still haven't come up with a credible alternative explanation for the flood of fake new profiles suddenly showing up on YouTube to post dozens if not hundreds of unmonetized and improperly labeled video files with the keywords "Pentagon" and "ufo" in the titles, right after the story about the Pentagon's ufo program was published by the New York Times. That's classic obfuscation/disinformation. And we know from Luis Elizondo's interviews that some people at the Pentagon were so furious about him going public with the program's existence that he received personal threats from them. Muddying the waters at YouTube is relatively tame compared to that level of hostility.

But hey if you've got a sensible alternative explanation: do tell - I'd love to hear it. In fact I'll make that a challenge: give us a better explanation Tom, because I don't think that you can.

And honestly I think it's bizarre that you vocally advocate any and all wild and totally baseless conspiracy theories against the AATIP story and everyone involved in it - without a lick of evidence to support any of it...but yet when you see actual data that indicates a real disinformation operation, suddenly you can't believe that our own government would lie to us. I think you're faking, frankly, because even a fool could see the data that I've provided and readily understand what it means.