Single-Payer CRISIS - Britain National Health Service Cancels FIFTY-THOUSAND Operations!.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: Metallicus
Right now I can go to any doctor I want and pay for the services I need. In England you are screwed due to Government involvement. I love the freedom I have to choose who I want to see and get done what my doctor and I decide is best for me.

Thing is, most of us are happy with the NHS and don't bother going private.

I think you're referring to those who are not on the DELAY, or WAIT, or CANCELLATION list for medical treatment?

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Theprodicalson

Healthcare is absolutely not a right. You cannot have something be a right that requires the action of someone else. That makes it tantamount to slavery or indentured servitude.

Jaden

Unfortunately for that ideology, we live in the real world with infectious diseases like tuberculosis, ebola, malaria, dysentry, hepatitis, influenza, measles, mumps, chickenpox and many others. Even worse if they are anti-biotic
resistant strains. The health of the general population depends on the health of every individual.

We've had people in London having to take months off work, because some new arrivals were carriers of antibiotic resistant strains of TB and were spreading it around the London Underground. If it weren't for the NHS, those people would not afford the hundreds of thousands of pounds for treatment and would have continued to spread it around.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
Yes, the NHS has problems. It's winter for a start and there are too many morons out there who think that a cold = deadly flu. In addition the idiot Conservative government we are currently cursed with (Theresa May is one of the most unlucky and incompetent PMs we have ever had) has been mismanaging it by trying to bring in US-style measures that keep wasting money and not working. However, the NHS is still a national treasure that works.

Bravo! A post that reflects the truth!

Two thirds of the best healthcare systems in the world are in European countries, all social systems. Some countries like Germany and France have had more immigration than the UK and yet they are functioning well. Why? Because theirs have not been chronically underfunded for years, like the NHS. And the current government is still refusing to provide adequately... almost like if they'd love the NHS to fail.

I have said this before on ATS and I will say it again, because I am one of those nurses who came to the UK twenty years ago from a European country and who have worked extra hours without pay just to help the NHS: visit any hospital right now and describe the patients you see waiting in A&E or admitted due to flu/sepsis etc and tell me how many are non-natives. You are more likely to be treated by a foreign than queuing behind one to be seen. The hospital crisis is not due to immigrants.

nevermind. Delete.

It's tragic that so many people will have to live in pain and distress for AT LEAST 30 days longer than they should. For those of you who have been sick or injured, just a few days of waiting seems like an eternity, doesn't it?

Now, I agree that living with pain isn't nice, but I'll be honest with you - these are NON-URGENT operations in the first place. Unlikely to be horrendously painful conditions if they have been deemed non-urgent.

And I agree with another poster regarding the fact that the NHS has been denuded over the past thirty years due to pressures from vested interests who would love to see a shot-to-# private system like that of the USA, so they can make precious moneys...

But I think that this is one occasion where our NHS has shown its remarkable resilience in the face of the disgraceful # emanating from the halls of power. They performed better than expected in the face of a gruelling onslaught, after having had to battle the office of the health secretary for years now, in efforts to prevent further impoverishment of young professional doctors (resulting in less interest in taking up the profession), and nurses who are tragically underpaid & need to use food banks. Which is abominable, in the fifth richest nation in the world.

The final thing I have to say is that people are more resilient than you think too. Especially here in Britain, we can take a thrashing and still come back to the fight. I'm confident that although it's inconvenient to all persons affected by the cancellation of these operations, only a vocal minority will harp & squeal about it. The majority realise we're in a battle for the heart & soul of the nation, and they've been asked to pull on a jersey.

Plus, you'll be surprised what people can cope with. If it wasn't the case, the nation would have become a vassal state for the Nazis in the early years of WW2. That survivalism is in our genetic memory, and despite our being far too generous & forgiving to the ruling class, we will put up with the flak if it means we avoid the bullets later on. If that analogy made sense, I salute you.

I myself have a degenerative neurological condition which causes severe, chronic neuropathic pain on a daily basis, in combination with various symptoms of neuropathy, such as spasms caused by the demyelination of my nerve fibres, such as is seen in cases of Multiple Sclerosis. In my case, after years of testing in all manner of ways, there is no formal diagnosis apart from labels which describe my symptoms. This condition is so rare it hasn't been classified by any research to date. I have been told that on the basis of the symptoms manifest, there is no hope of a medical cure at this time, and it is likely to be another hundred years before we sufficiently understand the brain & central nervous system in ways which would facilitate a cure.

I live every day in severe pain, often unbearable, racked up on seriously heavy doses of various different types of analgesic. There is no hope by mortal standards - the only way I cope is with the medications & faith. I have begun to learn to live with my condition, after having spent years at war with doctors trying to discover what was going on. It has taken THIRTEEN YEARS since inception, until this moment, at which - although I still experience severe pain as described, in all parts of my body - I am able to just about manage a skeletal outline of a regular family routine.

People who need to wait another thirty days for their non-urgent operation have nothing to complain about.

I no longer complain about my condition, i just discuss its effects when it is appropriate to do so. My doctors, including my neurologist, are very supportive, but there is nothing they can do except tweak my medication every now & then. As I'm on the maximum doses of everything available, there's literally nowhere to go with it (six medications in combination - morphine, tramadol, codeine, paracetamol, gabapentin, amitryptiline - avoiding things like oxycontin due to its dangerous effects over long periods of time). I occasionally have IV bethametasone to aid me in coping with events like weekends at functions, but that's super-dangerous over the long-term so it's very, very infrequent. Which means I literally am incapable of anything, activity-wise. But I've learned how to have a fulfiling life, even stuck in my bed (I can't sit in chairs as it worsens the pain). Humans can adapt to anything, the saying goes. I don't think I'm fully 'adapted', but I've made peace with it.

FITO.

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Theprodicalson

Healthcare is absolutely not a right. You cannot have something be a right that requires the action of someone else. That makes it tantamount to slavery or indentured servitude.

Jaden

Unfortunately for that ideology, we live in the real world with infectious diseases like tuberculosis, ebola, malaria, dysentry, hepatitis, influenza, measles, mumps, chickenpox and many others. Even worse if they are anti-biotic
resistant strains. The health of the general population depends on the health of every individual.

We've had people in London having to take months off work, because some new arrivals were carriers of antibiotic resistant strains of TB and were spreading it around the London Underground. If it weren't for the NHS, those people would not afford the hundreds of thousands of pounds for treatment and would have continued to spread it around.

Your point is the best point in the thread I think. BUT how do we know whne we're going too far? When are we doing too many surgeries, or too many appointments, or too many medications? When do we say "We've crossed a line."? I argue we might never reach that point because our instincts are always to safeguard ourselves and our kin. We're in the process of expanding the definition of kin to include regional and country-wide peoples, and someday other countries will be included in our fold. But there's no "Hey, maybe we should pull back on this and refactor." Once we've committed to entitlements, it's nearly impossible to rescind on them. It's like a growing debt which never gets paid. We can't hit rewind, we can only slow down hte pace.

I do think the very wealthy put a strain on costs, as htey're always demanding more and suppliers are always wanting their business, oftentimes to the detriment of the have nots. Government and unions are a counter force.

a reply to: carewemust

we could fund it with a nation wide sales take of between 2 to 4 cent per dollar on everything without a current federal sales tax including the stock exchange why should wallstreet get away with out paying taxes.

this is sad for great britain but that is because too many ministers . to many foriegn dippers

but too me this news is likely sponsored by american insurance providers that no if obama care crashes or we get national healthcare they will be cut from the teat so to speak.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: carewemust

So, British Politicians manage to stuff up their system and it becomes the fault of a single payer system.

Australia has a great system, not perfect, but much better than the US model. It is a National Health system and it works.

Don't blame the UK system, blame the Politicians.

The problem with the US system is that it is based on a single purity of GREED!

P

You point out the exact problem with single-payer without realizing it.

ETA: And comparing a country with 23 million people to one with 64 million or even 300 million doesn't help your argument.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Another factor- a bad flu winter with a lot of patients.

What kind of operation does one give someone who has the flu?

Sounds like a lame excuse.

The facts though speak for themselves we live longer here in the UK than the USA.
Our health system must be doing something right.

originally posted by: jjkenobi

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Another factor- a bad flu winter with a lot of patients.

What kind of operation does one give someone who has the flu?

Sounds like a lame excuse.

Beds and nurses.

No operating theaters are not in use with flu. But all the beds in the wards are and the nurses will be running around after the flu patients.

So sure we can give them the operation , but there are no resources avaliable for post op care.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: Metallicus
Right now I can go to any doctor I want and pay for the services I need. In England you are screwed due to Government involvement. I love the freedom I have to choose who I want to see and get done what my doctor and I decide is best for me.

Thing is, most of us are happy with the NHS and don't bother going private.

I think you're referring to those who are not on the DELAY, or WAIT, or CANCELLATION list for medical treatment?

Yes. Like I said. Most of us.

originally posted by: stormcell


We've had people in London having to take months off work, because some new arrivals were carriers of antibiotic resistant strains of TB and were spreading it around the London Underground. If it weren't for the NHS, those people would not afford the hundreds of thousands of pounds for treatment and would have continued to spread it around.

I've been reading around drug resistant TB for a while but I haven't found anything to substantiate what you say.

ANY TB takes several months to treat. Each case costs about £5,000.

We have pretty good herd immunity to TB so the cases of drug resistant TB are between one and two hundred a year, mainly people who are already immunocompromised and/or have aggravating social factors such as homelessness. Almost all those cases respond to a different course of drugs. In the worst case, these cases each cost about ten times as much to treat.

A significant people cannot take the main anti-TB drug, rifampicin, because it can have monster side effects.

Most TB cases - treatable and not treatable - occur in non-European ethnic groups. So does rifampicin sensitivity. They are also more likely to stop taking their meds before time. There is no evidence that the resistant strains come from abroad. Like most diseases, the strains seem to have simply evolved.

A far better example of how well our NHS works is cardiovascular conditions - another interest of mine, don't get me started. Take strokes. 100,000 cases a year.

Heart surgery. Tens of thousands. I know two people who felt peaky, went to their GPs, were sent straight to hospital and - bish, bosh, no fuss - got bypass surgery and all the usual post-op and continuing support.

Atrial fibrillation. Pal of mine, fit as a butcher's dog, keeled over. Wakes up weeks later, having been kept in an induced coma with, for some of the time, his body kept at below normal temperatures. Apart from a slight - and occasionally amusing - aphasia, he's back to normal, running marathons and looking better than most of his peers.

They paid the same National Insurance as I do, with my occasional sporting injuries and middle age slowly rising blood pressure, before and they pay the same NI after.

Thank God for the NHS.

The NHS is one of the best things to happen to this country. Sadly Jeremy # has helped run it to the ground, with cuts, reducing staff numbers and closing some hospitals down.

I injured myself in work (work in a kitchen) pretty significantly. Nearly took my fingertips off and ended up fracturing a bone plus hitting an artery. Anyway I was rushed (by a colleague) to my nearest hospital, Princess of Wales, and went to the reception. The receptionists saw my hand and the blood pouring down my arm and simply said, "won't be a minute love".

So, I informed her I very nearly cut my fingertips off and it was bleeding pretty heavily which prompted her to get off her chair and rather swiftly put me through to triage. In triage the nurse looked at it, dressed it bla bla bla and put me back in the waiting room for an hour. Then obviously I was taken to a cubicle for further examination. They told me they didn't have a specialist and I had to go to Morriston hospital in Swansea which is about 20miles from me.

So I thought they'd arrange transport for me but they didn't, so they called my work and got someone to take me. Still in the Princess of Wales, I had to get off the bed as they needed it and was placed on a plastic chair up against the wall. So after an hour my colleague driven me down to Swansea where I went to the department and had to wait a good 5 hours to be seen.

And after being seen twice they still didn't stop the bleeding (went on for about 12hours nonstop). Then was placed back in the waiting room for more fun hours sitting there listening to patients moaning. About 11pm they stopped the bleeding and told me I'd need surgery. So I asked if I could stay the night as I couldn't get back there in the morning. Took another hour but eventually got one. Then after three days finally had my surgery. Wasn't given any painkillers to subsidise the pain after tbe op.

Anyway, this isn't me slagging off the nhs but the powers to be. I talked to staff and told them I think the government are purposely running the service to the ground so the people will get pissed off thusly privitising the nhs. They all agreed.

THE NHS ISN'T THERE TO MAKE MONEY BUT TO SAVE LIVES. STOP CUTTING THE BUDGET AND PUT MORE MONEY IN.

You're sincerely, a slightly agitated working class welshman/brit.

a reply to: stormcell

Why were those newcomers not medically screened and turned back before they could start infecting others in your country?

You live on an island. You don't have rabies because you successfully do this with animals. Shouldn't you have the gumption to do this to protect yourself from certain strains of disease too? Particularly when you are talking about diseases being brought in by people who don't pay into your health system, so you and those around you must bear the extra burden of paying to cure them or cure them and all the rest they infect through long, and difficult courses to specialized treatment they may not complete which makes it more likely those strains will become even more disease resistant.

a reply to: ketsuko

Two words.....liberal guilt.

a reply to: carewemust

Unbeknown to most British people, the NHS has made a deal with France to treat NHS patients. This has surfaced in the news this week: Calais hospital offering their world reknown medical services, no waiting and all paid by the UK:

French hospital promises surgeries in four weeks for NHS patients delayed by the winter crisis

Here is their website: Calais Hospital

The government, instead of trying to fix the UK hospitals, prefer to pay France for services. If this makes sense to anybody, please explain. I would also like to remind everyone that France has a higher percentage of immigrants than the UK and yet their social National Health system is one of the best in Europe and the world.

Also, I have a nice graph to reiterate my point above as I am fed up of the constant moaning about immigrants causing the problem, moaning without any evidence whatsoever. This is why I decided to leave England in 2017, after twenty years of being a good tax paying citizen, because apparently Italians / Europeans like me are causing all the problems.

Here is a graph from the Nuffield Trust, an independent reputable organization:



Here is their 2016 report: The facts: immigration and the NHS

And I can also add evidence about the so called 'Health Tourism' if anybody wants to see, but I'm sure nobody will ask for it as it doesn't fit their xenophobic agenda.