It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What to do about Afghanistan?

page: 1
7
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 08:42 AM
link   
Quite a conundrum in Afghanistan. For the antiwar type it seems obvious to pull out of a seemingly pointless warzone. What progress has been made there after all these years after all? We've got a rogue drone program blowing up who know what for what reason with mounting civilian causalities. We had Trump seem to be about getting over it, but then continue on. Just more Neocon warmonger games it was sounding like...

And then we have the other issue of that is Afghanistan: 90% of the worlds Opium & Heroin supply. No halting of production there all these years, no change in it being the nations primary crop. Corruption across the board... how far home and abroad does that corruption reach oh my...

Let me put it this way: Before November 2017 no US President ever green light the DOD to bomb the drugs labs in Afghanistan. Not the Taliban's. Not Al Qaeda's. Not the Afghani governments. Then Trump did.

Now this creates several interesting dilemma's, as well as raises many challenging questions.

Now another thing I learned this week in my crafting Wars of Drugs Report, is that it's largely the fault of US foreign policy that Afghanistan came to adopt opium as their primary crop:


1992-1999: The CIA's Afghanistan aftermath.
After investing $3 billion in Afghanistan's destruction, Washington just walked away in 1992, leaving behind a thoroughly ravaged country with over one million dead, five million refugees, 10-20 million landmines still in place, an infrastructure in ruins, an economy in tatters, and well-armed tribal warlords prepared to fight among themselves for control of the capital. Even when Washington finally cut its covert CIA funding at the end of 1991, however, Pakistan's ISI continued to back favored local warlords in pursuit of its long-term goal of installing a Pashtun client regime in Kabul. Throughout the 1990s, ruthless local warlords mixed guns and opium in a lethal brew as part of a brutal struggle for power. It was almost as if the soil had been sown with those dragons' teeth of ancient myth that can suddenly sprout into an army of full-grown warriors, who leap from the earth with swords drawn for war.When northern resistance forces finally captured Kabul from the communist regime, which had outlasted the Soviet withdrawal by three years, Pakistan still backed its client Hekmatyar. He, in turn, unleashed his artillery on the besieged capital. The result: the deaths of an estimated 50,000 more Afghans. Even a slaughter of such monumental proportions, however, could not win power for this unpopular fundamentalist. So the ISI armed a new force, the Taliban and in September 1996, it succeeded in capturing Kabul, only to fight the Northern Alliance for the next five years in the valleys to the north of the capital. During this seemingly unending civil war, rival factions leaned heavily on opium to finance the fighting, more than doubling the harvest to 4,600 tons by 1999. Throughout these two decades of warfare and a twenty-fold jump in drug production, Afghanistan itself was slowly transformed from a diverse agricultural ecosystem -- with herding, orchards, and over 60 food crops -- into the world's first economy dependent on the production of a single illicit drug. In the process, a fragile human ecology was brought to ruin in an unprecedented way. During these two decades of war, however, modern firepower devastated the herds, damaged snowmelt irrigation systems, and destroyed many of the orchards. While the Soviets simply blasted the landscape with firepower, the Taliban, with an unerring instinct for their society's economic jugular, violated the unwritten rules of traditional Afghan warfare by cutting down the orchards on the vast Shamali plain north of Kabul. All these strands of destruction knit themselves into a veritable Gordian knot of human suffering to which opium became the sole solution. Like Alexander's legendary sword, it offered a straightforward way to cut through a complex conundrum. Without any aid to restock their herds, reseed their fields, or replant their orchards, Afghan farmers -- including some 3 million returning refugees -- found sustenance in opium, which had historically been but a small part of their agriculture.


Not to mention we effectively created Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and eventually the modern Afghani government, which has proven to be just as corrupt in the dope game as anybody.

So we've effectively given Afghanistan their opium heroin based agriculture economy, and opium heroin cartel rulers entrenched in warlord culture as their government.

Meaning we have to take out the cartels (Al Qaeda / Taliban / etc), reform their government (again) and transition the people and their crop lands themselves back to how it was before the Soviet-Afghan War if we're ever to truly save face, live up to our personal responsibility there, as well as hamper the drug flow situation.

Now it just so happens the US is the worlds agricultural industry powerhouse, but why this hasn't translated into any major shift in the Afghani agricultural situation sure is a question that demands answers.

So its hard to see how solving any of these problems is possible if we pull out. Therein lies another problem however, "our" own corruption. Now that's a long and brutal history if we're to really go at it. But lets just leave it here at the corruptibility of our people being on the ground there engulfed in it all. What guidelines, strategies, check & balances, rotation strategies are in place to minimize our people being corrupted as they endure their time there? From my research, and what does get exposed, the DEA seems to have a pretty decent record of actually doing what they're out there supposed to be doing. Inversely, the CIA often over the decades even with the help of the State Dept. upon analysis you almost get the impression their entire agenda of existing is being all up in the narcoterrorism game in all of its aspects. One case even had the NSA spying an a DEA agent that got in the CIA ways, and the State Dept. running interference when the agent tried to push on past the CIA interference.

So with these kinds of games going on at the agency levels, imagine how it must be for the boots on the ground soldiers out there just trying to keep the peace.

Another complicated issue is what would happen across the rest of the world in the hypothetical of if we actually shut down 100% of Afghanistan's drug supply in the next se 2 years. While this would be good news for Burma and the rest of the worlds supply sources, across the streets and in the drug dens of the world we'd see junkies flocking to alternatives, we'd see prices and crime go up, and more effects.

...CONTINUED...




posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 08:43 AM
link   
...CONTINUED...


It should be noted that traditionally 'prescribed' methadone causes more deaths than heroin. There are some other solutions to the addiction problem, yet they often go unsung and under-utilized. Some come in the form of what one might call "research chemicals". No not the 'designer drug' forms of Fetanyl and the like, but chems that are 'newer' to medicine while not really used for much else. There's a handful of these types I've heard of over the years that some studies have shown helping some, yet medical doctors apparently never prescribe or advise cue up the FDA protocols of 'if it doesn't make a killing it doesn't do any saving'.

Then we have some other natural items primarily Kratom, which Obama and the DEA tried to ban last year, although there isn't likely enough global production for mass spike in people needing it. Then there's another plant known as Iboga, a high level psychedelic plant from Africa that reports insist it cures addiction from within the brain itself. It's banned you go to prison for it, of course.

For shorter en masse order though, there's always plain old detox. The issue is there needs to be an overt side by side policy of 'we're shutting down the supply and we've set to help you detox'.

Otherwise society faces spikes in crime after prices skyrocket, and overdose deaths from people attempting to substitute other forms of opiates while prescription & synthetic forms already lead in the death rate.

The point is dope doesn't have to be permanent. It's a matter of crushing the supply as best can be done, which basically has never been attempted, while actually trying to help the people affiliated by it, instead of trying to lock them up. All while half of the people in the 'dependency equation' here we need to help them get traditional agriculture back.

When considering what it costs to drop bombs, these alternative approaches just has to be more cost efficient and socially satisfying over the long run...


foreignpolicy.com...


edit on 4-1-2018 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 08:47 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Oh well. Too many corporations would lose revenue if we left. We are there forever.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 08:48 AM
link   
The cost of being there outweighs the benefits. We could manage any international threats there with drone and Cruise missile strikes.

Why we don't destroy the poppy fields is beyond me. I don't care if it's a crop many Afghans grow for their livelihood, grow something else.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 08:56 AM
link   
I'm not sure if there's anything that really can be done about Afghanistan. If there is anything the military history of Asia teaches us, it is don't get involved in a war in Afghanistan.

If you have to go in, just go in and smash something as hard as you can and then get out very quickly.

But on the whole, best to just never go in.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:00 AM
link   


Not to mention we effectively created Al Qaeda and the Taliban,


No we didn't.

What effectively created AQ was the Soviet invasion and the Peshwar Seven.

What effectively created the Taliban was the same.

Special note that both AQ and the Taliban come from the Sunni branch of Islam where Wahabbism comes from.

And It's birth place is the House of Saud, and consequently created a new group which as everyone knows as ISIS.

What to do about Afghanistan ?

The road to self recovery is telling people the WHOLE story.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:02 AM
link   
a reply to: pavil

Okay this search: |efforts to transition afghan fields to other crops| brings up some results.

The thing is when the policy is to protect the fields and the labs and the pipelines, as it was under both Bush & Obama, then it wasnt going to work.

The other side is we did that to that place back in the 80's. There's a concept known as Personal Responsibility that ought to govern people. Its been missing to such degrees there's been no accountability, a total disregard for history, and so on across the board at all levels of foreign & domestic policy / government / politicians / agents / operations / etc. Heads should roll, legacies should be tarnished, people should go to jail as needed in this vein just like we should[/i[ fix things we break.

Or else we're just a bunch of sociopathic hypocrites. If that's how we're going to roll, as the worlds Evil Empire, well everyone needs to stop pretending that isnt what we are.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:04 AM
link   
a reply to: neo96

How was it our business what USSR was doing in their own neighborhood?



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: neo96



Not to mention we effectively created Al Qaeda and the Taliban,


No we didn't.

What effectively created AQ was the Soviet invasion and the Peshwar Seven.

What effectively created the Taliban was the same.

Special note that both AQ and the Taliban come from the Sunni branch of Islam where Wahabbism comes from.

And It's birth place is the House of Saud, and consequently created a new group which as everyone knows as ISIS.

What to do about Afghanistan ?

The road to self recovery is telling people the WHOLE story.




The CIA did have a major role in organising arming and training the Mujahadeen though.

And the Mujahadeen splintered off and became the Taliban.
edit on -06:00am07131America/ChicagoThu, 04 Jan 2018 09:07:12 -06003 by Painterz because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:09 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

The Young British Soldier
by Rudyard Kipling

WHEN the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .

First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts -
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts -
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .

When the cholera comes - as it will past a doubt -
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .

But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .

If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .

Now, if you must marry, take care she is old -
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .

If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em - you'll swing, on my oath! -
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .

When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are - you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .

When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:10 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You'd have to ask Charlie Wilson on that after all it was his war.

Bout all we did was give money to Pakistans ISI who dished it out.

More or less it was a proxy war between the east and west.

ALSO a proxy war between the sunni and the shia.

Peshwar Seven, and the Tehran eight.

It's not all bout the drugs as some would have us to believe.
edit on 4-1-2018 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:11 AM
link   
Look at a map. Afghanistan sits right above Iran.

I_R_A_N

Also:


The Khyber Pass has long been one of the most important trade routes and strategic military locations in the world. Nestled in the mountains that divide present day Pakistan and Afghanistan, it forms the bridge between Central and South Asia.Feb 17, 2011

Afghanistan has been occupied by many empires but never subjugated. Endless war anyone?
Alexander tried it, the Soviets tried it, the British tried it , twice. Afghanistan, where empires go to die.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistans plains,
And the women come out to hack up your remains,
Roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd like a solider."

--Rudyard Kipling

Telegraph



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:13 AM
link   
a reply to: Painterz




The CIA did have a major role in organising arming and training the Mujahadeen though.


Major ?

I guess Saudis GID,Irans VeVak, and Pakistans ISI, and Chinas MSS just stood around with the thumbs up their rears.

I love how the big bad CIA and the US get made the villains in this little story.

And that's all it is.

A little story that leaves out quite a hell of a lot.
edit on 4-1-2018 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:19 AM
link   
a reply to: neo96

How about Cause & Effect:


In 1977 Afghanistan was transforming itself into an enlightened, modern and democratic society. Eyewitness accounts from the 1960s and 1970s document the rapid changes embraced by Afghan men and women across a broad spectrum of society. Despite its poverty, Afghanistan had been independent in its foreign policy and self-sufficient in many areas, including food production; a vivid illustration of what life was like when Afghans were in control of their own state. It was also the year that Zbigniew Brzezinski stepped into the role as National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter. Brzezinski was about to turn back the clock for the Afghan people by inaugurating a plan to lure the Soviet Union into an invasion of Afghanistan that was fulfilled on December 27th 1979. Now the blowback from Brzezinski’s scheme has delivered another dagger into the heart of America’s soul and the people of Orlando, Florida.

This is how Zbigniew Brzezinski did it.
Upon entering the White House in 1977 Brzezinski formed the Nationalities Working Group (NWG) dedicated to weakening the Soviet Union by inflaming ethnic tensions, especially among the Islamic populations of the region. While Brzezinski was activating his scheme, former CIA operative Graham Fuller was station chief (1975-1978) in Kabul, Afghanistan. Conveniently for Brzezinski, Fuller’s focus was on how to politicize the Islamic world on behalf of American interests. In Fuller’s own words, he explains his thesis:

“In the West the words Islamic fundamentalism conjure up images of bearded men with turbans and women covered in black shrouds. And some Islamist movements do indeed contain reactionary and violent elements. But we should not let stereotypes blind us to the fact that there are also powerful modernising forces at work within these movements. Political Islam is about change. In this sense, modern Islamist movements may be the main vehicle for bringing about change in the Muslim world and the break-up of the old “dinosaur” regimes.”

In 1977 Fuller was in a position to activate Brzezinski’s scheme. As CIA station chief in Kabul he was also perfectly positioned to provide Brzezinski with the intelligence needed to build his case for President Carter to sign the directive allowing him to lure the Soviets into invading Afghanistan. www.huffingtonpost.com...





posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:21 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Cause and effect.

Cause: Russia Invade.

Effect: A snip load of people said NO.

For snips and giggles.



Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) greatly supported and funded the Taliban during 1994, some sources even say ISI "created" the Taliban.The I.S.I. used the Taliban to establish a regime in Afghanistan which would be favorable to Pakistan, as they were trying to gain strategic depth. Since the creation of the Taliban, the ISI and the Pakistani military have given financial, logistical and military support.[58][105][106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114][115][116][117][118][119]


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:26 AM
link   
a reply to: neo96

We set the stage for USSR to get suckered into their own Vietnam, they fall into the trap, we create Mujahadeen / Al Qaeda as the 'pungee sticks' in the trap, place goes to hell. In a place we really had no business in to begin with, where if anybody did it was them. Taliban rises under our graces. Then all that other stuff you're talking about happens et al. Place becomes a narco ag economy as a direct result of all of that.

But NOPE it was USSR's fault lock stock and barrel. And America can go back to bed (on cheap dope from Afghanistan).



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:27 AM
link   
a reply to: neo96

Yeah and ISI and CIA have been partners all long since the 70's, in Afghan policy, in covert operations, in drug running, in international terrorism, all of it.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:44 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

What to do? Ultimately, the US will do the South Vietnam thing. After granting asylum to the 1/4 of the population that supported the US, the US will declare victory and pull out, the Taliban will take over, game, set, match.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:49 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

With respect, no.

First of all you state that the US (with assistance from elsewhere, including my own nation) effectively created the cartels involved in opium production.

This is misleading. They did not effectively create those groups, they FACTUALLY created those groups, funded them, equipped them, trained them, and handled them, and as far as anyone knows, still do.

Therefore, it really does not matter what anyone thinks needs doing in Afghanistan, because the only things that OUGHT to be done, involve removing any and all troops from the region entirely, having any and all intelligence assets on the ground removed root and branch, ceasing and desisting all attempts to enforce western morality on the region more broadly, as well as arresting and publicly trying (without the merest hint of secrecy, or any respect paid to National Security concerns) cases against those who have, for decades, controlled, manipulated and created the situation in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was a relative paradise before the Russian occupation, and although that occupation was terrible, the US response to it was worse, because it has created the circumstances in which Afghanistan and the region in which it is located, find themselves today, to whit, in a state of perpetual war, within and without themselves, with no hope of ending at all, because funding comes in constantly from the very nation which alleges to be the worlds policeman.

America and the UK can have no part in solving the issue of war and terrorism globally, because our nations are the prime drivers of both. Until the leadership of these nations is of a sort which is humanist, disinterested in accumulation of mere wealth, has no respect for phallus waving contests nor any intention of being involved in one, until the people have the power to prevent their governments from acting in either the overt or covert sense without the permission of the people in those nations, America and the UK are not in a position moral or otherwise, to solve any of the problems affecting Afghanistan, or for that matter, any other hotzone of war and terror at the moment.

Our nations are the issuers of the anguish which is felt by more citizens of more nations on the Earth, than any other. We cannot therefore, at this time with the leadership that either nation has right now, be part of the solution to the problems we cause.

Until we are no longer the root of the problem, we cannot be its solution.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:55 AM
link   
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Trump and Putin can sort it out.



new topics

top topics



 
7
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join