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The Bible is not ALL Allegorical

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posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

So when Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass, you take that alligorically? Because, you're basically saying that every single jot and tittle of the original Word has indeed passed away, and has been replaced with translation. The original pages may not exist anymore, but I believe that every single syllable, down to the jot and tittle has been preserved in poetic heptameter, and I have provided you with examples in at least one past thread.
edit on 2-1-2018 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos




posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Since you made the claim in your OP, please explain how we are the last generation.

The Bible is a collection of what I believe to be historical accounts and poetry. History is to be taken literally, poetry is usually figurative.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: PolyCottonBlend

How many times have you read it through?

How deep did or do you study the Bible?

There are many sons and daughters of pastors who admittedly will say they have not read it through but a few times. Even my kids cannot say they have read it through except with me at our bible time together each day.

I tried to guesstimate how many times I have read the Bible through cover to cover it is around 75 times for the OT and 225 times for the NT. But this does not include the many numerous studies I do on many verses and chapters and books of the Bible, that would be incalculable.

Now concerning those books you speak of that did not make it into God's preserved word. God did not allow them to be put in. the men of God who translated the AV compared scripture with scriptures even in those books and found they do not agree.

No, it does not lead to many interpretation of God's message. Interpretation is only done from one language to another, what you may be referring to is application. Which is founded on exposition and right division of the word of truth.

If God has NOT preserved his words as he said he would then he is not a God worth following.

It is a collection of 66 books in total, written by over 45 men, all of them are identified, over a 1400 year period of time, yet the unity of the message is preserved from cover to cover.

My usual example is that if man had done it there would be very obvious errors. Like when they came our with Star Wars 4,5, and 6. One example of Star wars was in the star wars a new hope Luke called the desert dwellers as Sand people but in the Phantom Menace they are called Tuskin Raiders. So if men can't keep thing straight in a story only 20 years apart, how could we expect them to keep the bible straight over a 1400 year period.

But Holy Men of God spake, and in this case wrote, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and God used them to preserve it to English, the trade language of our time since the the late 1500's when England became a world wide kingdom. Not even the Romans changed the common trade language of their day to Latin, it was still Greek at the time. Latin never became a world wide trade language of their day at all. However English did and it still is the trade language today.

I would not say wishful but it is literal at best. By faith one needs to believe God kept his word and did preserve it to us in our generation, not in a language we do not speak or know. Remember the old Hebrew of the time of Christ was lost and became dead. Today's Modern Hebrew is not the same. Koine Greek has been dead for almost 2,000 years, and there to this day still not found any Koine Greek Dictionaries. We have no copy of a complete Koine Greek Holy Bible. Latin is dead and the original Latin Bible copies from the Greek that were used in Italy and some outlaying areas during the first 300 years of the church age were destroyed by the RC church, and at the time was replaced with the Latin Vulgate. A language the common people did not even know, That is why Martin Luther translated the Bible from the different languages and copies of his day to Old German.

Now I do not think man would write a book like the Bible because it condemns many of the things we would want to do or practice. It condemns putting anything or anyone before God, It condemns fornication, I mean who doesn't like sex with anyone at any time. It condemns adultery, he condemns drunkenness, It condemns covetousness, that is the amassing of wealth and things for the sake of having more. It condemns lying, It condemns stealing, it condemns murder, and so on and so forth.

Now why would a man write a book like that?

A man would write a book on subject like Tantra, the sexual attributes of sex and health. They write books on 50 shades of grey and the like. They write stuff like mystery murders, Positive thinking, How to get rich in five easy steps, . . . I think you get what I am saying.

Anyway, I just wanted to correct those who claim the Whole Bible is Allegorical, and or it cannot be understood except by a few.

The AKJV Bible was written so that the common man would have all the words of God, that he could hold them in his hands, he could know them and learn from them, and from his learning to love God and give him glory for saving us through the Cross of Jesus Christ.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

so God used the corrupt and ignorant hearts of men seeking power to make sure His most holy word and law would remain the same throughout the ages?

no.

Constantine used it to unify his empire. king James used it to satisfy the puritans.
and those are just two of the most major rewrites of history. the list goes on, as I'm sure you're aware.

like I stated before, I understand what you're trying to say, but your evidence remains on par with the historians of the book in total...unverified and patchy.

a thought you might consider: if God's word is to remain in tact throughout the ages, either the need for the old testament or new testament is moot. old testament law was the law of the land. given by God to man. in the new testament, Jesus becomes the second covenant given to man, and becomes the substitute for many of the OT laws. you can't have it both ways. so inclusion or exclusion of text by man in the total works of the bible immediately disqualifies it as containing the original intended message...whichever version you personally follow.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Nope I take it literally.

To be correct there is not one original Bible in existence. All we have are bits and pieces of copies of the originals. When the king burned part o the word of God Jeremiah spoke as he was moved of by the Holy Ghost a re-inspired the original that was burned and then God added more to those words. Read Jer 36:20-32

No, the original meaning of God's words God inspired in the past have been preserved for us by God into English today and not in a heptameter but in plain easy to understand English. While there is Poetry in the Bible the whole Bible itself is not Poetry, that would be a erroneous as saying the whole Bible is Allegorical.

I have found some of your heptameter stuff interesting however it doesn't work in all the books of the Bible. I am still waiting for you to take the time and do an heptameter interpretation of 1Kings 19 for me. I know it is a long chapter but a guy like you should be able to do it an a week or so. When you do please PM me a copy to me.

I have found some strange instances of numbers. But I could not build a whole doctrinal application on it but only little instances there are some very strange indicator that do lend to numerology. But it is not to be the focus of our study of God's word.

There are signs we see, the coming together to make a global world order which is said it will be like that when the Anti-christ appears, many have rejected the bible outright, many have rejected the gospel of the grace of God outright, more so in this generation than any other. the speed at which information travels and/or is gained is a fulfilled prophecy.

You belief is that the Bible is a collection of Historical accounts and poetry where the historical evens are to be taken literally and that is well. And that poetry is taken figuratively at which form is the poetry, what of the other figures of speech found in the poetry and historical accounts.

BTW, I didn't look but have you done a thread on the Heptameter? You know, how to do it and what to do with it once you counted everything? What applications do I get from the Numbers? How to interpret the numbers? And so on.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

OP this vid can show you errors in the KJV ... Without understanding the text and having 2 or 3 witnesses you leave yourself open for errors as well .



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:43 PM
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a reply to: PolyCottonBlend

Yep God uses ordinary men who have devoted their lives to him through faith on Christ. Having the mind of Christ does and having the fullness of God indwelling us makes it a lot easier to be used of God. You imposing an assumption on God and how he preserved his words.

God preserves it not man. That is why there are almost 400 English versions made since 1880's. Men thinks he is the one to preserve it wit their own wits but that is not how God does it. I mean it is proven that there were drunkards and a sexual deviant on the board of translators of the first version of the NIV. So it is no wonder it has been redone four time.

Constantine was deceived into believing that his circle with a cross, a Druid symbol, was from God and gave him victory in capturing Rome. The Alexandrian cult, based on the writing found in the Library there, and a translation of the bible from Athanasius of Alexandria and later other so called early church Fathers (call no man father) convinced this deceived man he was to bringing in the kingdom of God on earth by what is now know as the Roman Catholic church.

Jesus is the testator, whose New Testament became active as all testaments do after the death of the testator. That testament is his substitutionary death for the sins of man. The only action required for you that are to be the recipients of the Testament is to be saved by the grace of God through faith on Jesus Christ With the heart one believes and with thy mouth one confesses, and is saved.

Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


I have not the intended words of God in my hand but all the words of God in my hand.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:47 PM
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originally posted by: PolyCottonBlend
a reply to: ChesterJohn

so God used the corrupt and ignorant hearts of men seeking power to make sure His most holy word and law would remain the same throughout the ages?

no.

Constantine used it to unify his empire. king James used it to satisfy the puritans.
and those are just two of the most major rewrites of history. the list goes on, as I'm sure you're aware.

like I stated before, I understand what you're trying to say, but your evidence remains on par with the historians of the book in total...unverified and patchy.

a thought you might consider: if God's word is to remain in tact throughout the ages, either the need for the old testament or new testament is moot. old testament law was the law of the land. given by God to man. in the new testament, Jesus becomes the second covenant given to man, and becomes the substitute for many of the OT laws. you can't have it both ways. so inclusion or exclusion of text by man in the total works of the bible immediately disqualifies it as containing the original intended message...whichever version you personally follow.


incorrect..... it started after the death and accession of Jesus Christ with gnostics teachings and writing during the ancient church fathers. Teachings and writings which came to be known as mystic teachings such as the book of Thomas, the entire writings of Nag Hammed scriptures and many more. These false teachings reached Rome with the help of the great magician that attempted to buy the Holy Spirit for money from Peter.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:50 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I could link you to a site that proves that error in your posted video is not an error at all. But it is a waste of time do so.

Yeah if you want to find so called errors you will.

If you want to find the truth you will.

Many of the so called errors are nothing more than an opinion of a man because he doesn't understand something or wants it to say something it does not say.

I gave up on reading other men's commentaries and watching their so called videos.

The AV Bible only and from it I can teach you anything all those other Bibles teach and more.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:51 PM
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a reply to: DeathSlayer

incorrect. see above posts.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:56 PM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: ChesterJohn

OP this vid can show you errors in the KJV ... Without understanding the text and having 2 or 3 witnesses you leave yourself open for errors as well .


Interesting video... thanks


So much for said preserved word...




posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 05:08 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

So the text that Jesus and His Apostles used is in error ?



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 06:41 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Jesus nor his Apostles used scriptures. And the account of the scroll of Isaiah handed him in the temple was a copy of a Hebrew text is was not an original.

You see anyone show used going the Greek or Hebrew are already flawed because they have no original only copies copies they cannot verify to be correct to make a doctrine or application that may just be erroneous.

However if God says he will preserved his tried and pure words to every generation then he has done it. We need only to find and believe it.

However this thread is not an AVKJ bible issue it is about what figures of speech that were used in this original complete whole English Bible at the height of the English Bible.

Not one has spoken about the Bullinger's companion Appendix #6 and its 217 identified different Figures of speech. It is a little overwhelming to say the least but it does prove the point. The Bible is not just one style or one figure of speech. It is important to know this and when studying to understand these figures of speech because correct exposition and study will lead to correct application for us today.


edit on 2-1-2018 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn




Jesus nor his Apostles used scriptures.
For not using scripture they sure quote it a lot and reference it to make the points they do. The Masoretic Text in the KJV is not original and was created around 1000 ad . The Dead sea scrolls as well as the other more ancient text are much closer to the originals and were used by the early Church fathers . The older text agree with one another while the MT varies from them as well as NT writers . English is only one of many languages that tries to transpose scripture . Depending on the Bible version even within the English language will produce different wording . Its not a one size fits all .



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Jesus is the Word, he knows the scriptures by heart, only one time he is said to read from them because they handed it to him yet he stopped half way through the verse at a comma in our Grammar, and handed it back and told them that this day it was fulfilled int heir eyes. They then went about to stone him because they knew it spoke of God, which he was the fullness of bodily. Peter, John and James spoke scriptures after Jesus Ascended into heaven and they didn't read it either it was put in their hearts and mouths by the indwelling of the holy Ghost. Even the priest noted that they had been with Jesus and that they were unlearned in the scriptures.

But you're still not getting it this is about figures of speech in our own language that help us to understand the scriptures preserved for us in our Language. This is not an argument over copies of supposed ancient texts that no one today is really qualified to understand.

And it is about preserving his words to us, not with mans wisdom but how he used certain men at certain time to preserve it in English.

You don't have to agree with me but use the OP text to study the figures of speech God preserved his words with into English. And save yourself a lot of heart trouble. there are no originals, so just have faith in God doing what he said he would do.

Enjoy learning from his word as found the AVKJ. If you don't agree no problem.



edit on 3-1-2018 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 09:24 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

I am in the process of relocating, but once that is completed, I will have more time to focus on the heptameter. When I get to 1Kings 19, I will send you the document. I don't agree with you, but I don't think it would be profitable for either of us to get any deeper into argument. I don't think we are the final generation, but who knows? Thank you for replying.



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 11:21 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

regards.



posted on Jan, 4 2018 @ 09:38 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn




4) There is a supernatural built-in cross reference system of God's words, doctrines, teachings not of men.


So true! I have a small list of such words and phrases I keep adding to in the front of my Bible.
Such things as:

"that which"
"it may be"
"Verily"
"to and fro"
"replenish"
"inspiration"

And many more. That amazing Authorized Version of the English Bible has an incredible built in dictionary as well, allowing the word to be defined by synonyms that are around it in the same or near by verses.
Great work here sir!


edit on 4-1-2018 by MonarchofBooks1611 because: i can



posted on Jan, 5 2018 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: MonarchofBooks1611

Try looking at, in the beginning, the Beginning, beginning of his ways. Look also for phrases, and more complex words, and add them to your list. The AV has lots of them.

If you want to understand Gen 1:2 look up in a bible program "without form and void". The second and only other occurrence helps you to understand the meaning of Gen1:2.

Remember the more you read through it the more things will stick out.

It is lost in so called better translation the AV is the best and retains the connections.



posted on Feb, 7 2018 @ 11:31 AM
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Ok, so I waited for anyone to prove the Bible is ALL allegorical. Of which we now know it is not. The reason the person who made the statement was quite clear he believes the Bible was ALL allegorical, because it cannot be understood. My rebuttal was that in every instance of the one of over 200 figures of speech used in the AV Bible, Allegories always identify to whom they are speaking about and why. Which flies in the face of the posters claim.

Not to shame him because there are allegories in the Bible.

Other than the one, a writer many believe to be Paul, identifies in the NT.

Ezekiel reveals at least six allegories. I ask that you read them so I don't have to post a mountain of scriptures of which many complain about because they are to lazy to read, I will limit it to the address only and you can see if my conclusions are correct.

1) The Allegory of Israel's History in the land Ezk 16
2) The Allegory of King Zedekiah Ezk 17
3) The Allegory of Judah before it's captivity Ezk 19
4) The Allegory of the divided Kingdoms capitals of Jerusalem and Samaria's Unfaithfulness to God Ezk 23
5) The Allegory of God's Judgement of Jerusalem Ezk 24
6) The Allegory of God's Judgement against Satan and the Anti-chirst in Ezk 31

Every Allegory I have found in the preserved word of God has identified who, what and why of the Allegory found in this case in the book of Ezekiel. Never are you left without the identification of the allegory.

I would note, if you are reading any other version of the bible, there are words, phrases, sections and verses left out, removed, omitted or changed which may not allow you to identify figures of speech correctly and lead you to assume the BIBLE is ALL Allegorical.

I have not found any figure of speech that could not be understood especially an Allegory.

As a side note most of the rest of the book of Ezekiel from chapters 31 to the end are about the Great Tribulation known as Jacob's Trouble, the great day of the Wrath of God, The day of great Darkness and clouds straight through the Millennial Kingdom. Which as we know by the book of Revelation ends with the Judgment of mankind (not people ind), the destruction of the old earth and the old heaven and a new heavens (no longer 3 but only 2) and a new earth Rev 21.

So I conclude via the Study of right division of he word of Truth, that ALL allegorical figures identify the reason for its use and to whom it is too and about. ALL allegories found in the preserved word of God, the AV Bible, are understandable to the behest of the false claim of that poster in many ATS threads of the past.


edit on 7-2-2018 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



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