I have defied Gods and Demons...

...all my life. I'm good without a God as well as Demons. I don't need some spook watching over me to know right from wrong, to know what harms me will harm others.

So if I have free will and the afterlife exists, can I tell both sides to # off, leave me alone and let me do my own thing?
Most of us spend a life time having our lives being dictated to by other humans, regardless of if what we do is harmless to others or not.
Most people I have met are in some way, my way or no way. I have found very few exist who are genuinely accepting of people not being exactly like themselves.
Kind of how many God's seem to be portrayed.

Must we really spend an eternity doing the same in ghosty mode?

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then.

I mean take a look at some, if not most, mainstream beliefs.
You have freewill. But if you do not use it as Big Daddy deems fit, then you go to hell.
That I can choose to be a good person but if I do not choose faith, I'm damned.

Doesn't really seem like freewill to me if this is what is behind existence.

I'm agnostic. My life is one of science, but I do like to think there is more to all of it than this, because what is the point of a lifetime of learning and experience if the end result is just an eternity of being switched off. Be a damn cruel joke if it is just lights out.

But just as I refuse to follow any man, I refuse to follow any deity.
So yeah, if you're spiritual and 'believe'. Can I use my free will to choose not to be involved in any Heaven, Hell or Oblivion scenario and just choose to not be part of it and go off and do my own thing?
Do I have to do what FSM's want because some dusty old books and their self proclaimed chosen tell me I must?

Kind of over people expecting me to pick sides in everything in this life, let alone having to choose in this life which side I want to be on in the next.
If it turns out any ones got it right in the religious thing to begin with that is.

After a life time of non-involvement, non-appearances, should any entity have the right or power to interfere come the end of my physical existence?

I think if I was forced to choose, going to war with supernatural beings could be pretty fun. Because I sure as heck won't submit to any ones will. God or Demon alike and they can expect a bit of fisticuffs from me even if I have no hope of winning.
In context if I got taken hostage I would end up dead, because I would not be putting up with that # regardless of who they are.

What are your thoughts true believers?

I think if I was forced to choose, going to war with supernatural beings could be pretty fun.

It would be fun to go to war with a being that could squash us like a bug ?

I don't think so.

We've all seen mans capacity for war.

A God war would be nothing like we've seen before.

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

After a life time of non-involvement, non-appearances, should any entity have the right or power to interfere come the end of my physical existence?

Seriously? You're questioning the rights of your Creator who put you here in the first place?

Question everything ! Find the real truth . GOD isn't afraid of the truth . Only men are afraid of the truth .

sounds kind of like the preacher comics... you haven't recently developed any strange powers to compel, have you?

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then. 

We do indeed have free will and can exercise it. What we do not have, is freedom from the ultimate consequences of those choices

a reply to: Deetermined

Seriously? You're questioning the rights of your Creator who put you here in the first place?

Please don't be so offended. That person is "CREATOR," as are we ALL.

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

The idea of seeking death and not able to find it adds a level of context to consider . Hey I am a believer but act like a kid going kicking and screaming all the way ...Less so as I age though .

originally posted by: neo96

I think if I was forced to choose, going to war with supernatural beings could be pretty fun.

It would be fun to go to war with a being that could squash us like a bug ?

I don't think so.

We've all seen mans capacity for war.

A God war would be nothing like we've seen before.

I guess you haven't seen 'Guardians of the Galaxy 2.'

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

I accidently came across an interesting article last year - couple of days ago - LOL - Happy New Year!

The Toxic Narrative of “Being Chosen” by Gods and Bad Boys by Misha Magdalene

There’s a narrative, popular in some Pagan and polytheist circles, which depicts the relationship between gods and their devotees in a curious, largely unidirectional way. In this narrative, a god will choose a particular person to be their devotee, then proceed to pursue that person until they give in to the deity’s advances. The character of this pursuit varies in description, ranging from stalking to coercion to overt assault, but the relationship being described always seems less reminiscent of “deity and devotee” than of “abuser and victim,” or possibly “predator and prey.” The underlying driver of this narrative is that the devotee ultimately has no say in whether or not to be in relationship with the deity.

They don’t get to choose, you see. They’ve been chosen. Of all the possible devotees in the modern polytheist/Pagan/practitioner community, willing or otherwise, this god chose them.

... once we’ve embarked on a narrative in which we’ve cast ourselves as powerless protagonists at the mercy of domineering, socially inept aggressors who control the relationship, I think it’s necessary to admit to ourselves that we’ve passed beyond the realm of “differences in practice” and entered into a pseudo-romantic fairytale, one which is both psychologically and spiritually toxic. This is the theological equivalent of a wearyingly common theme found in a whole host of romantic fictions, from Rebel Without a Cause to, gods help us all, Twilight: the “bad boy” trope.
...
Now, take this cliché and project it into the realm of the numinous.
...
...if you wouldn’t let a romantic partner treat you a certain way, I’d certainly look askance at a god treating you similarly. I promise you, any relationship dynamic that looks skeevy, unhealthy, and sketchy as hell between two humans isn’t going to look any better between a human and a superhuman entity.

a reply to: pthena

I find that to be a neat analogy of being subject to a creator god who provides laws and zones of reward and punishment, rather than the presented frame story of a neo-pagan finding a path.

Many neo pagans change path numerous times throughout their lives, it's typically an evolving and meandering personal journey ime.

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo
...all my life. I'm good without a God as well as Demons. I don't need some spook watching over me to know right from wrong, to know what harms me will harm others.

So if I have free will and the afterlife exists, can I tell both sides to # off

... what you did there is crudity and verbal abusiveness.

, leave me alone and let me do my own thing?

... and that is self-centeredness taken to the point of autistic isolation.

Most of us spend a life time having our lives being dictated to by other humans, regardless of if what we do is harmless to others or not.

Perhaps being 'good' is more than just 'not doing harm to others'?

Most people I have met are in some way, my way or no way. I have found very few exist who are genuinely accepting of people not being exactly like themselves.
Kind of how many God's seem to be portrayed.

The way Gods are portrayed? Or is it the way you have decided to interpret how Gods are portrayed?

I say this because I see the God of the Bible as loving and giving, to the point of self-sacrifice, but moderated with 'parently' sternness due to the incredibly dire consequences of sin.

God's plan is to elevate us to new heights of existence, power, heart and consciousness but we can't get there if we continue doing things that impede the process.

Must we really spend an eternity doing the same in ghosty mode?

... and that "ghostly"mode is eternal, is unbounded physically, is disease free and exceeds current limitations?

Which 'mode' is the preferable, the temporary, flawed and pain filled one; or the eternal, pain-free, powerful and loving one?

Besides, I imagine we will find lots of other things to do in our elevated existence as well, a natural function of our intelligence and curiosity.

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then.

But surely nothing prevents us from free will even if we display a little self-control? The multitude of choices are still there.

I mean take a look at some, if not most, mainstream beliefs.
You have freewill. But if you do not use it as Big Daddy deems fit, then you go to hell.

Perhaps the utter isolation of self, alone, elevated to supreme, with no-one and nothing else to call upon for help, or community, is Hell? It accords with the Biblical allegories.

Imagine yourself in that situation and a pain nerve erroneously fires (as does frequently occur, a function of all complex systems, they will occasionally misfire - quantum determinancy and all that). It is now up to you to stop it, but there are no pain killers, or natural responses to damp it down. You have to do it by your own effort of will, which will fail because you have always had to rely on the external to do it and which is now absent, according to the consequence of your choice.

You would probably describe such a situation as being on fire. Like with opiate withdrawal when pain nerves fire un-moderated.

That I can choose to be a good person but if I do not choose faith, I'm damned.

Wouldn't being a good person include some degree of gratefulness for what we have been given, almost without limit?

Surely, being thankful is an important attribute of both being a good person and of having a faith?

Doesn't really seem like freewill to me if this is what is behind existence.

I'm agnostic. My life is one of science

Agnosticism is a position of not knowing, or being unable to know, and being accepting of the ignorance. Science is the process of 'denying ignorance' through observation, theorization and test.

Agnosticism and science are conceptual opposites.

The 'agnosticism' as word is also ugly, a hodge-podge of a Latin prefix to a Greek article and a Latin suffix. The entirely Latin translation 'ignoramus' (without knowledge) is far more understandable and clear than the compound word: 'agnostic' (without knowledge).

, but I do like to think there is more to all of it than this, because what is the point of a lifetime of learning and experience if the end result is just an eternity of being switched off. Be a damn cruel joke if it is just lights out.

Indeed!

The plan of the God of the bible accords with the processes of maturation and evolutionary development we see reflected in nature (Creation).

We were made for 'more than this'.

But just as I refuse to follow any man, I refuse to follow any deity.
So yeah, if you're spiritual and 'believe'. Can I use my free will to choose not to be involved in any Heaven, Hell or Oblivion scenario and just choose to not be part of it and go off and do my own thing?

There are hints in the Bible that there may be a fourth option, which is eternal life as a physical person on what is called the 'New Earth'. Unfortunately I cannot help you with the criteria for this option as it is something reserved for a future time after the end of this world.

Do I have to do what FSM's want because some dusty old books and their self proclaimed chosen tell me I must?

Well, it is obvious to me that a Flying Spaghetti Monster is incomplete without the blessing of the Ripening Omni-Cheese, and so as a theology, it is rationally deficient.

Kind of over people expecting me to pick sides in everything in this life, let alone having to choose in this life which side I want to be on in the next.
If it turns out any ones got it right in the religious thing to begin with that is.

After a life time of non-involvement, non-appearances, should any entity have the right or power to interfere come the end of my physical existence?

All physical existence experiences entropy and therefore has an end.

Sometimes you have to look at the options on offer and choose one.

I think if I was forced to choose, going to war with supernatural beings could be pretty fun. Because I sure as heck won't submit to any ones will. God or Demon alike and they can expect a bit of fisticuffs from me even if I have no hope of winning.

For some reason, I just visualized you standing defiantly against God armed only with a banana.

In context if I got taken hostage I would end up dead, because I would not be putting up with that # regardless of who they are.

What are your thoughts true believers?

May your search find your answers. I really mean that.

a reply to: chr0naut

God of the Bible as loving and giving

Hating and killing, more like it.
Maybe You should read the old testament? And, please, don't start, with - the old testament ain't "canon".
The bible's a joke. Trust in Your higher self/inner voice. All organized religions are scams and power schemes.

P.S. You're free to differ, but I just don't give a crap anymore, what "religious" people think. Life's a journey, so everyone's free to do what they want, unless they hurt others in the process. Everyone's free to come to their own conclusions and that journey is what matters.
P.P.S. I've been involved in Christianity, Satanism (or Spiritual Satanism, as it's also called). Conclusions - scammers and money/power -grabbers are everywhere. They don't care about beliefs, they care about money and/or power.
The only thing that has managed to catch me is paganism. Love and care about nature, love people around You. Though it doesn't mean "turning the other cheek", if someone decides to fsck with You. If they do, well, that's their problem and their medical/funeral bills.
P.P.P.S. Happy new year, tinfoil hat crazies!

a reply to: skalla

I find that to be a neat analogy of being subject to a creator god who provides laws and zones of reward and punishment,

Right. When I first read it the Blessings for Obedience and Curses for Disobedience came to mind. 13 verses of blessing, 53 verses of curses.

19You shall be cursed when you come in, and you shall be cursed when you go out.

20Yahweh will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke, in all that you put your hand to do, until you are destroyed, and until you perish quickly; because of the evil of your doings, by which you have forsaken me. 21Yahweh will make the pestilence cling to you, until he has consumed you from off the land, where you go in to possess it. 22Yahweh will strike you with consumption, and with fever, and with inflammation, and with fiery heat, and with the sword, and with blight, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish. 23Your sky that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under you shall be iron. 24Yahweh will make the rain of your land powder and dust: from the sky shall it come down on you, until you are destroyed.

Many neo pagans change path numerous times throughout their lives, it's typically an evolving and meandering personal journey ime.

Yes. Methinks that my days will end before ever I have a coherent Cosmogony. Not enough Physical Science background.

originally posted by: nowanmai
a reply to: chr0naut

God of the Bible as loving and giving

Hating and killing, more like it.
Maybe You should read the old testament?

The Old Testament God and the New Testament one are the same God. If you focus on only one aspect or action of God and don't include the 'whole', you will not comprehend something as complex as the obvious parental motivation and love revealed in total.

God doesn't directly kill anyone but does allow things to happen in accordance with the consequences of actions and with the processes of nature.

The universe He created is 'lawful' like that.

You drop the glass above the concrete and it doesn't float there in space.

And, please, don't start, with - the old testament ain't "canon".

I would never suggest such. The Old Testament is the basis of the canon.

The bible's a joke. Trust in Your higher self/inner voice.

I know my own mind and respectfully would like to suggest to you that the third party speaking in your head isn't your higher self/inner voice.

All organized religions are scams and power schemes.

P.S. You're free to differ, but I just don't give a crap anymore, what "religious" people think. Life's a journey, so everyone's free to do what they want, unless they hurt others in the process. Everyone's free to come to their own conclusions and that journey is what matters.
P.P.S. I've been involved in Christianity, Satanism (or Spiritual Satanism, as it's also called). Conclusions - scammers and money/power -grabbers are everywhere. They don't care about beliefs, they care about money and/or power.
The only thing that has managed to catch me is paganism. Love and care about nature, love people around You.

Surely paganism is a collection of organized religions.

Nor are they necessarily about love. The prevalence of roots in ritual human sacrifice might alert you to that.

Though it doesn't mean "turning the other cheek", if someone decides to fsck with You. If they do, well, that's their problem and their medical/funeral bills.

So love everyone, but, um, not...

P.P.P.S. Happy new year, tinfoil hat crazies!

Happy Samhain (or whatever) but don't throw people or animals into the need-fire, it isn't actually a 'loving' thing to do.

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo
What are your thoughts true believers?

Absolutely authority comes from within. If anyone tells you otherwise then they are trying to manipulate you, sell you something, or get you to be submissive to their authority. Do not listen to men pretending to speak for God. Nobody speaks for God. If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.

originally posted by: annoyedpharmacist

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then. 

We do indeed have free will and can exercise it. What we do not have, is freedom from the ultimate consequences of those choices

Nobody has free-will. We do not get to choose what choices we have.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: annoyedpharmacist

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then. 

We do indeed have free will and can exercise it. What we do not have, is freedom from the ultimate consequences of those choices

Nobody has free-will. We do not get to choose what choices we have.

it is a shame that you see it that way

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo
...all my life. I'm good without a God as well as Demons. I don't need some spook watching over me to know right from wrong, to know what harms me will harm others.

So if I have free will and the afterlife exists, can I tell both sides to # off, leave me alone and let me do my own thing?
Most of us spend a life time having our lives being dictated to by other humans, regardless of if what we do is harmless to others or not.
Most people I have met are in some way, my way or no way. I have found very few exist who are genuinely accepting of people not being exactly like themselves.
Kind of how many God's seem to be portrayed.

Must we really spend an eternity doing the same in ghosty mode?

What's the point of free will if we cannot exercise it? Now or then.

I mean take a look at some, if not most, mainstream beliefs.
You have freewill. But if you do not use it as Big Daddy deems fit, then you go to hell.
That I can choose to be a good person but if I do not choose faith, I'm damned.

Doesn't really seem like freewill to me if this is what is behind existence.

I'm agnostic. My life is one of science, but I do like to think there is more to all of it than this, because what is the point of a lifetime of learning and experience if the end result is just an eternity of being switched off. Be a damn cruel joke if it is just lights out.

But just as I refuse to follow any man, I refuse to follow any deity.
So yeah, if you're spiritual and 'believe'. Can I use my free will to choose not to be involved in any Heaven, Hell or Oblivion scenario and just choose to not be part of it and go off and do my own thing?
Do I have to do what FSM's want because some dusty old books and their self proclaimed chosen tell me I must?

Kind of over people expecting me to pick sides in everything in this life, let alone having to choose in this life which side I want to be on in the next.
If it turns out any ones got it right in the religious thing to begin with that is.

After a life time of non-involvement, non-appearances, should any entity have the right or power to interfere come the end of my physical existence?

I think if I was forced to choose, going to war with supernatural beings could be pretty fun. Because I sure as heck won't submit to any ones will. God or Demon alike and they can expect a bit of fisticuffs from me even if I have no hope of winning.
In context if I got taken hostage I would end up dead, because I would not be putting up with that # regardless of who they are.

What are your thoughts true believers?

My thought is this. You don't understand what's going on.

My best guess is this so far. What the "God" of the Judeo-Christian religion is trying to do is simply reproduction. But the problem there is that you simply don't just create "gods". These potential offspring also have to past tests in order to prove themselves worthy. If Satan was an archangel that went bad could you imagine a potential "god" going the same way?

So actually shouldn't you be considering the possibility that you may be failing a test? You wouldn't want to miss out on a glorious afterlife would you?

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

So if I have free will and the afterlife exists, can I tell both sides to # off, leave me alone and let me do my own thing?

Sure you can do your own thing. You have that right to do as you wish as long as you can get away with doing as you wish. Now what I mean by that is that as long as you live among other people who have the same attitude then sooner or later the heads are going to bump. I heard a a man the other day ask the question as to how do you know what is right or what is wrong? Can you answer that? If a person decides to kill other people, what determines whether he is right or wrong? Is he right simply because he thinks he is right? What determines this right or wrong? Could it be partly because of disease? Freedom of thought without expression is your right. Freedom of expression of thought is another matter altogether. If you want total freedom of thought and expression of thought then you must become isolated from like minded people or face opposition.