Starting a counter LEO agency to end police violence

a reply to: av8r007

How are you doing math better?

Well, grasping real numbers instead of imaginary numbers is how I started out.

Nothing to do with "math" special ed, it was the "Stop" I was talking about as if you're the end all be all on the subject.

You do realize I didn't post one long run-on comment, right? Like...more than one point and everything?

We are your employer, we sign the checks and all of you have forgotten that fact.

Not really, but I don't expect somebody who can't deal in anything other than complete absolutes to understand that.

a reply to: av8r007


Good idea...But
Almost a year ago I suggested the same thing. A national private militia to monitor the police. I got denounced by just about everybody.

Of course I held my argument but nobody liked the idea


It wont happen though because we are already a solid police state in all but name

a reply to: intrptr

Nit picky, one guy and one percent?

If by "nit picky" you mean I'm not interested in debating your points that contradict each other, you are correct.

Letter of the law, huh? Look at the pic below, famous for its origins, the Rodney King beatdown. Everyone but everyone knows it was unjust and every single officer present in the pic below went back to the station that night, filled out their reports and not one said they saw anything wrong. They didn't know a video camera had captured the events yet. Not that that mattered, even with video they were all found not guilty in a court of law.

Cool story. Irrelevant to anything I said, but cool.

Thats what the OP is talking about and you are sidestepping, "buddy" ol pal, ol friend.

Not really. The OP claims law enforcement as a complete entity is out of control. It's not, and pointing that out pretty directly is sort of the opposite of "sidestepping" anything, amigo.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: intrptr

Its their job to die in the one of duty protecting the public

Therein lies the one single largest fallacy you have ever put into a post.

"Line of duty", I corrected that, thanks.

If necessary., yes. Its been changed, just like the meaning of Public Servant and Peace Officer.

Now they protect the Establishment, inflict Zero Tolerance Policy on their subjects (citizens)
I.e., shoot first, ask questions later.

Never a necessary thing.Ever.
I have a zero tolerance policy on anyone attempting violence on me and/or anyone around me.
And I am not even a police officer.
Absolute ZERO Tolerance and been that way all my life.

a reply to: Gothmog

I have a zero tolerance policy on anyone attempting violence on me and/or anyone around me.

The problem isn't self defense, who's arguing that?

The national Militia Police would not only have the power to investigate the local police forces but also the FBI, CIA, DEA and all the cop agencies in America.


It could work not for the congress or government but the courts

originally posted by: scojak

originally posted by: av8r007
I'm tired of police justifying their crimes with their pathetic neuroses, "what if" scenarios that actually aren't reality and the "I was in fear of my life" nonsense that has perpetuated this situation since around the year 2000 to this day... nearly two decades of escalating police violence against the public.. it is only getting worse.

Wow, all the way back to the year 2000 you say? And it's been escalating the whole time? Do you know what was also escalating over the last two decades? Social media usage and camera phone ownership. It's the reporting and publicizing of these acts that has increased, not the actual number of acts.

It's also very callous of you to mock the uncertainty in the daily life of a police officer. "What if" scenarios are very real, and imperative to the safety of police officers. Easy for you to talk s*** sitting in the comfort of your home though.

Regardless, lets run some numbers. Based on a quick search, in 2008 there were about 765,000 full-time officers with general arrest powers. That number has certainly grown in the last decade, but let's use it to make sure we don't over estimate. Let's say each of those has a very generously low 1 interaction with a citizen on a daily basis. Over the course of the year, that means there would be at least 279 million interactions. More realistically, the number is going to be far into the billions, but let's use it. And even with the all-seeing-eye we call 'social media', we hear about how many really bad interactions in a year? Let's be safe and call it 10/day, so 3,650 a year. That's .00001%. So, absolute worst case scenario here, 1 in every 100,000 interactions are bad to the point they get a strong media attention (which takes almost nothing these days).

Given all the degenerates and people with a false sense of entitlement in our society, I say that's a pretty darn good record. I say keep up the good work. Anyone who doesn't understand that you're obligated to comply with an officers commands deserves a good beat down.

Cops shoot to kill without provocation....refusing a verbal command is an inherent right....a humanitarian right.....refusing to submit willingly to custody is a god given and country provided right.......a verbal command is the end of a fuse being lit...it is proxy trigger for unstoppable escalating levels of force culminating in death to a suspect....remember this is a SUSPECT.......if you tell me to shut up and I tell you to screw off there is no recourse to you as a Cop but to shutup and do your job....if you tell me to raise myhands and not move but I wiggle my hands you CANNOT MURDER ME...simple ...one answer.....you may lay another charge on me but you may NOT lay you hands on me nor manufacture some dynamic which allows you to do so legally so you may torture or kill me with the law behind you.

Officers who misuse and abuse their civic powers put innocent people in bad dangerous dynamics with this misuse and abuse......then they use SOP legally defendable methods to treat people like animals....even worse than people in war torn countries....and this misuse and abuse is ENDEMIC......it is part of the policing CULTURE.....this must change.

There better be weapons or guns in hand or shots fired when a Cop kills a suspect and there should be NEAR ZERO suicides by suspects in custody......we could go on and on about the problems......there are thousands of videos online showing HORRIFIC ABUSE OF POWER INCLUDING MURDERS committed by LEOS who have never been prosecuted......in reality these offending employees must be weeded out by their employer....and the PEOPLE ARE THE EMPLOYER....soooo....until we see the already exposed offenders prosecuted and jailed things will never move forward....the thin blue line and all of its peripheral supports must be erased with absolution.....

originally posted by: Willtell
The national Militia Police would not only have the power to investigate the local police forces but also the FBI, CIA, DEA and all the cop agencies in America.


It could work not for the congress or government but the courts

They are called Federal Marshals.....and they need to be bolstered by a few thousand....and they have National jurisdiction....they can investigate any level of any group of any type of enforcement in Americe....including all lettered agencies.

They can run simultaneous investigations and can net literally hundreds or thousands of suspects in one parallel strike....no borders interfere with their scope of actions....they do not have to communicate anything in any ways to conventional services or agencies so NO ONE CAN EVER SEE THEM COMING....and they can hit EVERY LEVEL of corruption at ONCE.....in no other way can this scope of intradiction and remediation be accomplished.....it is up to the Federal Marshals to support the NewAge America Trump and Friends are trying to birth and support....if you REALLY ARE A GOOD GUY OR GAL and you REALLY WANT to help your country.....consider a career with the Federal Marshals....methinks they will need 10-20 thousand new bodies ASAP.

originally posted by: one4all
Cops shoot to kill without provocation

Complete generalization.

refusing a verbal command is an inherent right....a humanitarian right

Then go live somewhere without government and a police force.

refusing to submit willingly to custody is a god given and country provided right

Oh God, please don't bring religion into this. And no it's not, it's called resisting arrest.

a verbal command is the end of a fuse being lit...it is proxy trigger for unstoppable escalating levels of force culminating in death to a suspect

LOL, no it's not, it deescalates the situation as long as the suspect isn't an idiot. It's the stupidity of the suspect that culminates in their death.

....remember this is a SUSPECT

Yes, someone suspected of committing a crime. LEO's give verbal commands to ensure the suspect is not a threat.

.......if you tell me to shut up and I tell you to screw off there is no recourse to you as a Cop but to shutup and do your job....if you tell me to raise myhands and not move but I wiggle my hands you CANNOT MURDER ME...simple ...one answer.....you may lay another charge on me but you may NOT lay you hands on me nor manufacture some dynamic which allows you to do so legally so you may torture or kill me with the law behind you.

Or you cold just do what the officer says, get a ticket and go about your day. I think your train of thought here is utter insanity in that you would even come up with it. Why not just comply?

Officers who misuse and abuse their civic powers put innocent people in bad dangerous dynamics with this misuse and abuse......then they use SOP legally defendable methods to treat people like animals....even worse than people in war torn countries....and this misuse and abuse is ENDEMIC......it is part of the policing CULTURE.....this must change.

As I showed, the number of innocent encounters FAR outweighs the few instances you're talking about. Perfection is unattainable, and if you don't accept that, you'll never be happy with any solution.

There better be weapons or guns in hand or shots fired when a Cop kills a suspect and there should be NEAR ZERO suicides by suspects in custody......we could go on and on about the problems......there are thousands of videos online showing HORRIFIC ABUSE OF POWER INCLUDING MURDERS committed by LEOS who have never been prosecuted......in reality these offending employees must be weeded out by their employer....and the PEOPLE ARE THE EMPLOYER....soooo....until we see the already exposed offenders prosecuted and jailed things will never move forward....the thin blue line and all of its peripheral supports must be erased with absolution.....

Go be a cop for a month and report back on how easy it was and how safe you constantly felt. I think it's sad how the prosecution of the officer is so important to people. You weren't there, you don't even begin to understand the tension of the situations, you assume the worst and call for justice in the form of prosecution. Cops are people too, people who make mistakes. For you to sit behind your computer and group them together as some criminal empire is just sad and silly. Yes, there are some situations that are blatant, but again, the many innocent encounters far outweigh the few malicious ones.

BTW, stop beating on that period key like it's Rodney King

The body armor makes my nipples sore.

originally posted by: skunkape23
The body armor makes my nipples sore.

You need to get yourself a "bro "

a reply to: av8r007


You said laws were passed, you only listed police tactics. Where are the laws that were passed?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

So many laws. Bigly laws. Can’t list them, but they’re there, trust me.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
So many laws. Bigly laws. Can’t list them, but they’re there, trust me.

It must be true, the Canadian guy said Trump was gonna clean house.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Several cities already have Citizen Review Boards.

My city does, for example. Has for over two decades. The CRB is charged with investigating any and all lethal force encounters, as well as any and all use of force complaints, search/seizure complaints, profiling, unprofessional conduct, and a myriad of other issues.

And the CRB has voted against an officer or the agency exactly one time in that entire period.

Stop buying the media narrative and do some research.

A CRB is the right direction but it needs to have powers similar to the NTSB has in the airline industry.

Here's what we need to stem police violence:

1. Decriminalization of victimless crimes, which involve substances. That is NOT to allow people to party, it's to free up LE resources for #2;

2. Return to a two LEO style of policing, in which two officers are in the patrol car and can back each other up and in a sense form a team which will reduce some of the over-the-top actions you see when it's one LEO out there. That is bad b/c often his options are limited. Either terminate pursuit or shoot the perp ends up being the main RoE (Rule of Engagement). This leads to #3;

3. Have a set of standard, agreed upon, Rules of Engagement. Basically that is to stem this culture of 'locker Room Commando', where the LEO must bring in their perp, no matter what, or get ridiculed or black balled.

4. Reduce the armament. Each LEO, now working as a team, has a five or six-shot revolver. With reduced armament and a good RoE, it will reduce the need or desire for LEOs to bring in a perp by doing a risky high speed pursuit or a chase, and wait for backup and 'solution by patience and show of force'.

5. Part of the RoE would be to ID the perp and 'bring him in later' in non-felony situations. In addition reduce the designation 'felony fleeing to avoid prosecution', such that just 'running' from the presence of an LEO is not a felony in the ABSENCE of evidence of a crime in progress. Even if a complaint has been called in for a misdemeanor, if the LEO has not witnessed said misdemeanor, he can not pursue and harass (absent evidence of further criminality), and thus elevate the situation to 'Felony Evading'. IOW, you shoplift a stick of gum, the store clerk calls it in, the officer thinks he sees you, you evade and now you've committed a misdemeanor AND a felony (evading arrest). This, while it may seem 'Right' to cops, is the wrong way to police the public.

6. Have top-down answering to the rank and file such as a Japanese style business management style. Upper management would largely be 'in charge' but would be answerable to the rank-and-file, not the other way around where the top Brass ignores or abets problems, and focuses on their own political aspirations and not the concerns of their troops.

7. Modify the terms of the qualified immunity to prosecution or civil suit, or mitigated ability to sue a cop who has clearly done something illegal or morally or ethically wrong. A cop now busts down the wrong door and he is not liable to have it fixed, neither is the department. It's returning the 'responsibility for your actions' to the job.

8. Make it illegal and actionable to lie to the general public, lie to a suspect that has not committed a major felony, or lie in court with severe penalties for doing so and incentives for outing a fellow LEO who blatantly lies, especially lying under oath.

9. WHen opportunities come for education or empowerment these go to the best cops, not to upper brass. All perks and education opportunities would be trickled down to the staff and rank and file, and not hogged by the administration. The admin gets plenty of perks. Incentivize returning to school while on the job (night school or leave of absence) to take criminal Justice courses or law courses.

10. Incentivize right action, giving back to the community, reaching out and doing 'good deeds', and defocus on the use of punitive measures for most things, reducing the power of Internal Affairs, which has become a bullying force, leading to bad behavior as a backlash.

...there are a few more things, including setting up a NTSB style agency and no longer having internal review. NTSB has more power than a CRB.

FWIW

originally posted by: scojak

originally posted by: one4all
Cops shoot to kill without provocation

Complete generalization.

refusing a verbal command is an inherent right....a humanitarian right

Then go live somewhere without government and a police force.

refusing to submit willingly to custody is a god given and country provided right

Oh God, please don't bring religion into this. And no it's not, it's called resisting arrest.

a verbal command is the end of a fuse being lit...it is proxy trigger for unstoppable escalating levels of force culminating in death to a suspect

LOL, no it's not, it deescalates the situation as long as the suspect isn't an idiot. It's the stupidity of the suspect that culminates in their death.

....remember this is a SUSPECT

Yes, someone suspected of committing a crime. LEO's give verbal commands to ensure the suspect is not a threat.

.......if you tell me to shut up and I tell you to screw off there is no recourse to you as a Cop but to shutup and do your job....if you tell me to raise myhands and not move but I wiggle my hands you CANNOT MURDER ME...simple ...one answer.....you may lay another charge on me but you may NOT lay you hands on me nor manufacture some dynamic which allows you to do so legally so you may torture or kill me with the law behind you.

Or you cold just do what the officer says, get a ticket and go about your day. I think your train of thought here is utter insanity in that you would even come up with it. Why not just comply?

Officers who misuse and abuse their civic powers put innocent people in bad dangerous dynamics with this misuse and abuse......then they use SOP legally defendable methods to treat people like animals....even worse than people in war torn countries....and this misuse and abuse is ENDEMIC......it is part of the policing CULTURE.....this must change.

As I showed, the number of innocent encounters FAR outweighs the few instances you're talking about. Perfection is unattainable, and if you don't accept that, you'll never be happy with any solution.

There better be weapons or guns in hand or shots fired when a Cop kills a suspect and there should be NEAR ZERO suicides by suspects in custody......we could go on and on about the problems......there are thousands of videos online showing HORRIFIC ABUSE OF POWER INCLUDING MURDERS committed by LEOS who have never been prosecuted......in reality these offending employees must be weeded out by their employer....and the PEOPLE ARE THE EMPLOYER....soooo....until we see the already exposed offenders prosecuted and jailed things will never move forward....the thin blue line and all of its peripheral supports must be erased with absolution.....

Go be a cop for a month and report back on how easy it was and how safe you constantly felt. I think it's sad how the prosecution of the officer is so important to people. You weren't there, you don't even begin to understand the tension of the situations, you assume the worst and call for justice in the form of prosecution. Cops are people too, people who make mistakes. For you to sit behind your computer and group them together as some criminal empire is just sad and silly. Yes, there are some situations that are blatant, but again, the many innocent encounters far outweigh the few malicious ones.

BTW, stop beating on that period key like it's Rodney King

We are discussing Civic Employees not storm troopers....you spew thin blue line rhetoric....it is thinly disguised but it is what it is....your respect for people is nil....hardened by your experiences no doubt....lol....murdering without provocation is murdering and the BS SOP dynamics law enforcement bases todays actions on is legally supported by generations of crooked cop killer supporting legeslations....I can watch lots of videos of cops murdering defenseless people...men-women-children......as long as we can see these criminals walking and not in jail you should consider a vow of silence.

I prefer to change my country and run all the murdering collisional psychopath LEOs out of dodge....from the inside out....forcibly...and part of this is dressing down their supporters like you.We the People aren't going anywhere but a lot of rotten apples will soon be looking for jobs at Burger King...lol.....REMEMBER PAL---ITS JUST A JOB....and everyone was looking for one when they found police work.....civic employee type of work isn't for everyone.

Police can make a verbal REQUEST and from there things can go up or down....but no one has empowered Police to make any kind of verbal COMMAND you aren't working in a war zone and you aren't hired to treat We the People like enemy combatants nor to be judge jury and executioner for people who refuse your illegal verbal commands.

THe stupidity of a LEO who doesn't know the difference between a request and a command nor when to issue or use either one.....you accusing innocent victims of murder by cop of being stupid paints you blue ....carefull what colors you choose for your personal banner.Because the Thin Blue Lne is beng ERASED WITHIN 15 YEARS.Your personal brand of militant lunacy will be recognised then fr what t is.

Why not comply....lol....because no one has a legal right to command anyone else to do anything....learn what a request is.

Perfection is not pulling triggers to kill innocent people and is 110% expected when innocent lives are on the line and murder charges hang in the balance....right now the system is so corrupt murder charges do not come into play....but they will soon count on it.

You keep saying innocent encounters far outweigh ones which end with murder by cop ...stop beating that dead horse pal....innocent encounters are not currency which buy cold blooded murder.

You see pal....you are tainted by the stench....every man or woman who holds the thin blue line for even a second is by proxy collisional and guilty of being complicit.

You have severely flawed reasoning....you are almost suffering delusions of grandeur IMHO....jeepers pal.....when is the last time you saw any LEO anywhere STOP A CRIME....lol...they show up AFTER THE CRIME.....so if you aren't saving our lives...but you are TAKING OUR LIVES and you are the police....well Housten we have a problem....dontcha think.

I know change is hard but I and many others have met far to may unstabe or law bending and breaking LEOs to let things go on as they have been.

The thin blue line will be erased and a culture change will happen....We the People will not accept being treated like combatants in a war by civic employees breaking the law.

There are more good cops than bad cops....we are fighting the thin blue line and a rotten culture which has existed for nearly 100 years...its a big job....but it will be done....thanks to Trump and Friends.

a reply to: one4all

Honestly I just mildly skimmed after reading the first sentence. It shows how little respect you have for LEO's which naturally creates your biased opinions.

Anyway, some desperately needed info for you:
The ONLY time you do not have to comply with an officer's REQUEST is during a voluntary encounter. A voluntary encounter is when no crime has been committed and the LEO has no reason to believe you have, or are going to commit a crime.

Why you wouldn't just be a good citizen and help the LEO is beyond me, but you are free to walk away in that situation, though you should confirm with the LEO that the encounter is, in fact, voluntary before doing so.

If, however, the LEO has ANY reason to believe you have committed, are involved in, or are about to commit a crime, you have to obey them. If you do not, that is a violation of the law. Even if you have not done anything, if you are SUSPECTed, you are required to comply.

To summarize:
Voluntary Encounter = you have the right to not comply with requests
Involuntary Encounter = you are required to comply with officer commands

How's that for flawed reasoning?

And for the record, I watched LEO's prevent a crime two days ago when they stopped a guy from jumping off an overpass to commit suicide.

a reply to: scojak

Suicide prevention is not crime prevention....

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: scojak

Suicide prevention is not crime prevention....

Hmm, you're right, I had thought suicide was illegal, but apparently it's not. My mistake.

Either way, it was LEO's getting to and preventing an incident before it happened.

a reply to: scojak

That would be good police work....