Reactions to Trumps NYT interview show why ensuring Russia investigation not political is crucial

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

The problem that I see is not that Trump has certain powers in regards to the DoJ. He is president after all. The problem is the mindset he has to say what he said.

Considering that he has openly said he would go after his political opponents and knowing that his supporters would back him no matter what he does, it does not leave one very confident in his ability to do what is just and right with the powers he has been given, or that his supporters would hold his feet to the fire if he overstepped boundaries we consider reasonable.

So you are saying when the doj or fbi is going after political figures, it's important to make sure they are not acting out of political favortism?

I agree!

Shame that so many anti trump people don't agree.

Then you would also agree with how many on the Left and the media responded to Trump's comments.

Again, Trump's comments do not leave us confident that he would not use his powers to do "what he wants to do", in regards to the DoJ, etc.

When you consider the things he has said leading up to this current situation, it is not unreasonable to be a bit wary.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

The problem that I see is not that Trump has certain powers in regards to the DoJ. He is president after all. The problem is the mindset he has to say what he said.

Considering that he has openly said he would go after his political opponents and knowing that his supporters would back him no matter what he does, it does not leave one very confident in his ability to do what is just and right with the powers he has been given, or that his supporters would hold his feet to the fire if he overstepped boundaries we consider reasonable.

So you are saying when the doj or fbi is going after political figures, it's important to make sure they are not acting out of political favortism?

I agree!

Shame that so many anti trump people don't agree.

Then you would also agree with how many on the Left and the media responded to Trump's comments.

Again, Trump's comments do not leave us confident that he would not use his powers to do "what he wants to do", in regards to the DoJ, etc.

When you consider the things he has said leading up to this current situation, it is not unreasonable to be a bit wary.

Sure it is.

I have said in this thread, if trump would do something like pay for opposition research from Kremlin sources, then use that to start an every widening investigation into his opponents, I would be right their with these people calling out trump.

If trump uses the IRS to go after left leaning organizations, I would call him out.

However, almost all of these people screaming about trumps words said nothing when Obamas agency actually did what they are worried trump might do.

You say there is not much hope that Trump supporters would challenge him IF he did these things.

Well surely you will admit that Obama supporters, including many powerful people in the MSM, actually went along with Obama when he actually did the thing they are fearing trump will do.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

The problem that I see is not that Trump has certain powers in regards to the DoJ. He is president after all. The problem is the mindset he has to say what he said.

Considering that he has openly said he would go after his political opponents and knowing that his supporters would back him no matter what he does, it does not leave one very confident in his ability to do what is just and right with the powers he has been given, or that his supporters would hold his feet to the fire if he overstepped boundaries we consider reasonable.

So you are saying when the doj or fbi is going after political figures, it's important to make sure they are not acting out of political favortism?

I agree!

Shame that so many anti trump people don't agree.

Then you would also agree with how many on the Left and the media responded to Trump's comments.

Again, Trump's comments do not leave us confident that he would not use his powers to do "what he wants to do", in regards to the DoJ, etc.

When you consider the things he has said leading up to this current situation, it is not unreasonable to be a bit wary.

Sure it is.

I have said in this thread, if trump would do something like pay for opposition research from Kremlin sources, then use that to start an every widening investigation into his opponents, I would be right their with these people calling out trump.

If trump uses the IRS to go after left leaning organizations, I would call him out.

However, almost all of these people screaming about trumps words said nothing when Obamas agency actually did what they are worried trump might do.

You say there is not much hope that Trump supporters would challenge him IF he did these things.

Well surely you will admit that Obama supporters, including many powerful people in the MSM, actually went along with Obama when he actually did the thing they are fearing trump will do.

Ok. For the sake of argument, let's agree.

It appears your entire premise is rooted in a logical fallacy. Specifically, tu quoque, an appeal to hypocrisy.

While it may be reasonable to say many people are hypocrites in regards to how they approached Obama on similar issues, versus how they approach Trump, their hypocrisy itself does not invalidate their current concerns with Trump.

It also appears that you are trying to deflect attention from the potential hypocrisy among Trump supporters by changing the focus to Obama supporters.

a reply to: Grambler

Things like this has always happened in our government. The left lost because they chose to run a campaign as corrupt as their leadership.
The only difference between President Trump and his predecessors is they didn't have the balls to say what they were doing. I guess some people prefer to be lied to from their leaders.

The criticisms of President Trump from the anti-Trump establishment are hypocritical and childish to the extreme, which it seems is what politics have been about for some time now.

I just find it very funny when people call him stupid and illiterate, and makes me think how ignorant that makes the people who he beat. For someone to be as "stupid" as Trump, what does that really say about his political rivals?

But I do agree with your premise.

a reply to: 3daysgone

I just find it very funny when people call him stupid and illiterate, and makes me think how ignorant that makes the people who he beat. For someone to be as "stupid" as Trump, what does that really say about his political rivals?

it reflect more on his supporters, imo.

and, yes the man is an idiot, or, as tillerson said a f%&*king moron. lol

originally posted by: Flatfish
a reply to: Grambler

Oh I agree, everyone at one time or another gets tongue tied or looses their train of thought.

The BIG difference between these two examples is that Obama recognizes the fact that he’s mumbling and not making sense, while Trump thinks he just made perfect sense, maybe better sense than anyone has every made and.......anyone who disagrees with that assessment is just propagating fake news.

Am I right?

Nope.

The man is a delusional, inarticulate, dunce and yup, that bothers me just a little bit.

So many insignificant and petty things would be insufferable if we were not able to tell truth from outright falsehoods.

originally posted by: knoxie
a reply to: 3daysgone

I just find it very funny when people call him stupid and illiterate, and makes me think how ignorant that makes the people who he beat. For someone to be as "stupid" as Trump, what does that really say about his political rivals?

it reflect more on his supporters, imo.

and, yes the man is an idiot, or, as tillerson said a f%&*king moron. lol

lol. So the left got beat by a moron. It seems to reflect on his adversaries more than you think.

originally posted by: MiddleInsite
a reply to: Grambler

So what your saying is that you were screaming about how bad it was when Obama supposedly did what now you are willing to excuse Trump of doing? Am I getting that right?

Curious...what did Trump do here? Other than talk?

Words are not action.

originally posted by: Grambler

Now leaving aside the the irony that all of these people are worked up about trump SAYING he can use the justice department how he wants, when they had no problem with Obama DOING this in the DOJ, IRS, EPA, FBI, and who knows how many other agencies, there is another interesting matter thaat this brings up.

Its funny that just recently the IRS "expresses its sincere apology" for mistreating conservative organizations as they prevented conservative groups from attaining 501 status for up to THREE years. This is/was a big deal and now 427 groups suing the IRS also reached a "substantial financial settlement" with the government.

No one is going to jail over this...no one even looked at the Obama administration for a second, WHY?

originally posted by: knoxie
a reply to: 3daysgone

I just find it very funny when people call him stupid and illiterate, and makes me think how ignorant that makes the people who he beat. For someone to be as "stupid" as Trump, what does that really say about his political rivals?

it reflect more on his supporters, imo.

and, yes the man is an idiot, or, as tillerson said a f%&*king moron. lol

well, one thing is certain. Whatever belief you anti-Trump folk think of Trump supporters, its a far cry from the verifiable brainless twits in the opposition, who leave no doubt as to their lacking qualities...

Sure he sounds like an idiot, he didn't have his teleprompter this time so it should be expected. We all know people are pulling his strings making the real decisions and he is just there to catch the flack and distract everyone while they destroy the country.

You do realize that the same people who are saying Trump should be able to do whatever he wants with the DOJ and politicize the investigation so that it clears him and his associates even if they did illegal acts are the same ones who think Obama abused the DOJ and that the investigation should not be politicized so that it charges people if they committed crimes?

Also, check this out:

Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.

Wikipedia: Whataboutism

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

The problem that I see is not that Trump has certain powers in regards to the DoJ. He is president after all. The problem is the mindset he has to say what he said.

Considering that he has openly said he would go after his political opponents and knowing that his supporters would back him no matter what he does, it does not leave one very confident in his ability to do what is just and right with the powers he has been given, or that his supporters would hold his feet to the fire if he overstepped boundaries we consider reasonable.

So you are saying when the doj or fbi is going after political figures, it's important to make sure they are not acting out of political favortism?

I agree!

Shame that so many anti trump people don't agree.

Then you would also agree with how many on the Left and the media responded to Trump's comments.

Again, Trump's comments do not leave us confident that he would not use his powers to do "what he wants to do", in regards to the DoJ, etc.

When you consider the things he has said leading up to this current situation, it is not unreasonable to be a bit wary.

Sure it is.

I have said in this thread, if trump would do something like pay for opposition research from Kremlin sources, then use that to start an every widening investigation into his opponents, I would be right their with these people calling out trump.

If trump uses the IRS to go after left leaning organizations, I would call him out.

However, almost all of these people screaming about trumps words said nothing when Obamas agency actually did what they are worried trump might do.

You say there is not much hope that Trump supporters would challenge him IF he did these things.

Well surely you will admit that Obama supporters, including many powerful people in the MSM, actually went along with Obama when he actually did the thing they are fearing trump will do.

Ok. For the sake of argument, let's agree.

It appears your entire premise is rooted in a logical fallacy. Specifically, tu quoque, an appeal to hypocrisy.

While it may be reasonable to say many people are hypocrites in regards to how they approached Obama on similar issues, versus how they approach Trump, their hypocrisy itself does not invalidate their current concerns with Trump.

It also appears that you are trying to deflect attention from the potential hypocrisy among Trump supporters by changing the focus to Obama supporters.

Even in your own wording you say potential in regards to Trump, however that is speculative as it hasn't happened. What we can see which is much less speculative and has evidence piling up to prove, Obamas administration did exactly what everyone is worried Tump COULD do. So how is it the same people justifying Obama are so vocal aginst Trump for something he hasn't even done. Grambler I gotta give you credit here...you called this months ago...mentioned it many many times over many threads, and here we see it playing out just how you called it.

a reply to: RickyD

Even in your own wording you say potential in regards to Trump, however that is speculative as it hasn't happened.

True. That is why I used that specific word.

What we can see which is much less speculative and has evidence piling up to prove, Obamas administration did exactly what everyone is worried Tump COULD do.

What does Obama's actions have to do with Trump?

So how is it the same people justifying Obama are so vocal aginst Trump for something he hasn't even done.

Again, how does their hypocrisy invalidate their concerns?

a reply to: introvert

Cause those people who are voicing concerns are acting as if its a sure thing he will do...we have no evidence he has. We sure are seeing the evidence mount that Obama did though and it is looking pretty criminal. Now those people all up in arms over Trumps words are still either silent or actively deflecting over the fact it appears Obama did exactly what they're up in arms over with Trump. So where are the calls to investigate Obama and his administration. I say look into all of them, but if we are only going to support looking into one side we might as well be living in a banana republic. I think that was the point of this thread...to point out that hypocrisy and bring awareness to it. I think it is a lost cause though as those who were open to the truth have already realized what happening here...and those who haven't don't want to for whatever reasons and no amount of threads will change that.


Edit: Obama's actions are related in the fact he did the same thing people are worried Trump will do. Same actions different reactions...even though one persons actions have mounting evidence to prove and the others is just speculative...the actions are criminal which is why its important not to just let slide because the perpetrator isn't in office anymore.

a reply to: introvert

The people worried about trump can be worried.
that.


Obamas actions do not change that.

But my point is these same people are saying anyone concerned with the fbi or doj being polticized against trump are told that by.questioning them they are hurting the country.

I am just saying if you are worried about trumps hypothetical abuses, you should not attack people worried about Obamas actual abuses.

a reply to: RickyD

Thanks for the kind words.

Many of us having been saying for months that the precedent is being set for the President, no matter who they are, to weaponize the Intel community against opponents, and then when their party for attacked, they would be outraged

I was ignored or laughed at for saying this.

Now we are it dodnt even take trump actually doing anything remotely like what is being done to him, but just talking in an interview has caused them to be scared and outraged.

And then try say, but just because Obama did it doesn't mean we can't be scarf of trump doing it.

That's true.

But that also means that we should take concerns with the current ongoing investigation agianst trump (the insurance policy) seriously.

a reply to: Grambler

The people worried about trump can be worried.
that.

Can we agree that there is a legitimate reason to be concerned, hypocrisy aspect set aside?

But my point is these same people are saying anyone concerned with the fbi or doj being polticized against trump are told that by.questioning them they are hurting the country.

Everything has its consequences. Having Trump approach the DoJ and FBI the way he has does not instill confidence and I do not find it unreasonable to suggest that his actions/comments have had its negative consequences on the FBI/DoJ. Especially in the court of public opinion.

Does that hurt or help our country? I'm not sure. But the issue still exists and I would expect the media to talk about it.

I am just saying if you are worried about trumps hypothetical abuses, you should not attack people worried about Obamas actual abuses.

Actual abuses, yes. Of course.

Made-up conspiracies based on the appearance of impropriety? People pushing those theories need to be addressed.

a reply to: introvert

Made up?

Like what we found out about strzok?

The point is many people, yourself included, make fun of anyone who has questions about wanting to investigate the behavior of the agents investigating trumps team.

They say all concerns are just sold conspiracy theories, like you do.

Then they are very concerned when trump Just says words.

It's hypocritical.

It shows that people are totally ok with obama weaponizing Intel agencies, but are afraid of trump doing it.

I will continue to be opposed to it all.

Eta.

Telling that you think that the people worried about trump have legitimate concerns that should be taken seriously.

But people pushing questions about how Obamas Intel agents worked need to be addressed.

a reply to: Grambler

Let's take a look at Flynn, he did things that were illegal, and then Trump fired Comey because he wouldn't let Flynn off the hook. Trump even admitted himself that he thought that firing Comey might put a damper on the Russia investigation. That wasn't just saying words.

At any rate, I trust you would be worried if Trump politicized the Justice Department to the point where they overlooked the possible crimes of him and his associates?

What about the fact that most Republicans refuse to take Russian interference in American elections seriously? Besides the social media campaigns riddled with disinformation and the hacking of various e-mail accounts and subsequent leaking through Wikileaks, there is evidence that Russia tried to hack election systems in 21 states. What are Republicans doing about this? Chances are high that Russia might try again in 2018 and even succeed.

MADISON, Wis. — Russians attempted to hack elections systems in 21 states in the run-up to last year's presidential election, officials said Friday. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security notified states of the attempted breaches on Friday, said Michael Haas, director of the Wisconsin Elections Commission. The attempt in Wisconsin was unsuccessful, he said.

USA Today

It might be a little off topic, but Trump refuses to even acknowledge this, and his supporters try to deny it with disinformation. I think this threat is more serious than Trump possibly colluding with Russia, which is why I bring it up. It might not have to do with the Justice Department exactly, but this attitude of his is not just words, his legitimate incompetence and reluctance to address the issue are going to bring gigantic problems to the table in the 2018 elections.

Why would Trump and his followers ignore the fact that Russia interfered in the 2016 elections? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is because they think it would make their Presidential victory seem less legitimate. You know what? I don't care, Trump can keep the White House (as long as he didn't collude with Russia), but the issue of the election meddling needs to be dealt with.