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Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

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posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg

It isn’t athiests running around still teaching it...

If I’m right it is accepted doctrine for most protestant denominations.




posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:49 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake


Nothing perfect about the pattern, truth be told its rather chaotic hence our inability to behold or understand the underlying principles behind reality.


I think you're confusing "chaotic" with complicated. It's too complicated for scientists to recreate it, so therefore, they don't understand it.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake


Why would we need to be redeemed by what amounts to an absentee patent at best and a genocidal megalomaniac with a massive inferiority complex towards its supposed choice creation at worst?

Think its God that needs our redemption and or forgiveness if truth be told.


You sound like the one with the inferiority complex. God's only "absentee" to those who ignore and reject Him.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:10 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

I think you have no idea about chaos theory or the part it plays regarding the emergence of order.

Complicated does not even begin to address the totality of the cosmos nor the reality we seem to experience as a direct result of such.

"You sound like the one with the inferiority complex. God's only "absentee" to those who ignore and reject Him."

Well if he turns up like and wants a word in my shell i will certainly entertain the voices. LoL

How can i reject something im not sure exists?

And to be honest you don't know for sure any more than myself, else prove it!



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Deetermined

I think you have no idea about chaos theory or the part it plays regarding the emergence of order.

Complicated does not even begin to address the totality of the cosmos nor the reality we seem to experience as a direct result of such.


Neither does chaos, but either way, scientists aren't capable of coming up with the answers for this topic, nor will they ever, as they aren't meant to.


"You sound like the one with the inferiority complex. God's only "absentee" to those who ignore and reject Him."

Well if he turns up like and wants a word in my shell i will certainly entertain the voices. LoL


It's more likely that he'll speak to you through your thoughts and dreams. Start paying more attention to them.


How can i reject something im not sure exists?


The blasphemous words that you have chosen to describe your thoughts about God (even if you're not sure he exists) are very telling. They prove that you have already rejected him in your heart, even if you're doing it subconsciously.


And to be honest you don't know for sure any more than myself, else prove it!


Sure I do. I have a personal relationship with God and he answers my prayers on a regular basis, but that's not anything I can prove to you. Do you really think billions of people believe in a God out of pure fantasy? How many adults do you think still believe in Santa Claus? There's a reason people hold faith in God throughout their lives and it's not because it was a bedtime story that they were once told as a child with only hopes of it being real.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:58 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Still not seeing this proof buddy.

Crap or get off the pot please.

You simply spout meaningless religious gibberish without any evidence to back up your nonsensical misplaced belief in an anthropomorphized sky God.

As to blasphemous words, i imagine they scare you more than the lack of evidence to promote your belief in such fantasy but each to there own i suppose. Keep in mind there are no silly questions only incomplete answers.

Like i said, just a simple piece of proof will do.



edit on 1-1-2018 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:08 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Your heart is so hardened, you wouldn't recognize proof of God if he slapped you in the face. Sweet dreams. You're about to get your face slapped. Goodnight!



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:14 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

"Your heart is so hardened, you wouldn't recognize proof of God if he slapped you in the face. Sweet dreams. You're about to get your face slapped."

Now we are on to mindless profanity, the last resort of the ignorant since time immemorial and so very predictable.

I bet you wish you could simply burn us at the stake? LoL

Still waiting for that proof buddy, any little bit will suffice?

"Goodnight!"

Same to yourself, and a happy new year also.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Oh I’m pretty sure if ANYONE could find ANYTHING that equaled tanigable evidence of a Christian god. They would get every athiest on the planets vote..

The problem is that the “evidence “ is always some abstract story about how you got the warm and fuzzies at an interesting time..



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 02:24 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jesus is a fictional character like mickey mouse.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: richapau

People don't usually sacrifice their lives for fictional characters

it just doesn't happen




posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: richapau

His father was real enough all the same.


Then again the Vatican kind of own the rights to Christianity, and by default Jesus, in a similar fashion to the way Walt Disney Studios own Mr Mouse.

You might be on to something there.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 02:44 PM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
Then again the Vatican kind of own the rights to Christianity, and by default Jesus, in a similar fashion to the way Walt Disney Studios own Mr Mouse.

I didn't mind the original Jesus spin-off, but that Holy Spirit show has always been problematic, mostly because they never really defined that character very well. The Holy Spirit is like the third movie in a trilogy that wasn't really necessary, but was just a cash grab. I guess they needed something to fill that spot in the triangle that would have ordinarily gone to the Virgin Mary. But... you know... no girls allowed.
edit on 2-1-2018 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

No actually, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian Orthodox, Armenian etc, etc are all different Christian faith's and though they have agreed on many point's they still have differences, the Roman Catholic is by far the largest group but it is neither the oldest nor does it have a monopoly on Christian belief's and it has it's own subdivision's within it's sphere of influence.

Also there is not a single Jewish religion but several variety's that agree on most thing's but not all and often have different tradition's as well as revere different teachers in some cases (rabbi's), Ethiopian, Ashkenazim, Sephardi, Iranian etc and some have further sub division's in there ethnic group with differing belief's, moderate Jew's Mostly western European v.s. Extremist so called orthodox whom are mostly from Russia and eastern Europe though there divisions are no where near as severe as those that separate christian denomination's on the whole.

But there are parallel's between the way the OLD catholic church and the Rabbi class control or controlled as the case may be there respective faith's and that was by controlling the interpretation of and also the reading of the religious text's.

Interpretation allow's you to bend the rules to your own benefit, to create political and economic power for yourself and this has or was once done by both group's, the Vatican priesthood of the past were powerful and rich because of this and so too are the rabbinical class of Israel - not all some rabbi's are as poor as a church mouse but they look after one another - no crime in that but on the whole they are wealthy because of there control of the religious doctrines etc.

It is however noteworthy that both bunches used this INTERPRETED law to advance there own economic and political interests even often in contravention of the actual law they were interpreting.

Remember Christ casting the money changers out of the temple, it was like walking into wall street or the city of London and kicking the bankers out on there back sides into the street.

For some people Money is God in all religion's and they abuse those religions or keep them in limbo to retain there control and power and Jesus warned against this.

edit on 2-1-2018 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Actually I don’t think any still existing church has outlasted the Catholic Church..

They spent a thousand years burning all of them lol..

If I’m right almost none of the deciples converted from straight up Judaism to a different religion with different laws.

Like I don’t think James started eating pork. and working on Saturday..lol.


I think the Jewish church claims they were all (but maybe Paul and Peter) were buried as Jews.

I know one of their main arguments is,

“Why didn’t all the deciples convert?”

If they believed that Jesus had drastically changed the covenant, then why did they keep upholding all the Jewish laws??



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

Wrong actually, the Syriac Orthodoxy is actually the oldest, the Coptic is also older and the Catholic had to be re-established so is in effect a new church claiming provenance from the earlier church that existed in Rome before the fall of Rome.

In fact it was among other's missionary's from those far flung Scottish and Irish island's that took manuscript's and teaching's back to Rome when the clergy there were actually semi pagan and did not even know the bible, one such illuminated manuscript still exists and is a most precious work of art held in the Vatican archives.

Meanwhile not all that disagreed with them were in there sphere of influence were destroyed though most were forced to conform and they did try to force there will even where they had no influence such as in the the Syriac as I pointed out which was NOT catholic and is actually older, in fact St Peter was the first bishop of the syriac orthodoxy before he even went to Rome, then there is the Coptic and the Ethiopian orthodox church's which are also not catholic in the sense of Roman catholic and the Armenian is another.



posted on Jan, 2 2018 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

I get that there are other branches of Christianity, some older than The Holy Roman Church of St Peter aka The Holy Roman Empire. But none of them have ever managed to accumulate the power, wealth, and religious treasures that the Vatican has nor have they influenced the world stage in the same manner. Or waged endless crusades throughout history, or managed to completely annihilate certain competition like the Cathars in the same manner as The Holy Roman Empire has done.

Money does indeed equate to power and control, unfortunately, that applies to most of us whether we care to recognize the fact or not just down to the way the world spins.



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 05:34 AM
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Why Did They Reject the Messiah?

...Thousands in Jerusalem responded and became believers. This, however, did not sit well with the Jewish authorities. Just as they had opposed Jesus, they now opposed his apostles and disciples. Why did the Jewish religious leaders so fiercely reject Jesus?

Rejected by Religious Leaders

By the time Jesus came to earth, Jewish religious thinking and practices had strayed far from what was taught in the inspired Scriptures. The religious leaders of the day—the Sadducees, Pharisees, and scribes—upheld man-made traditions, putting them ahead of God’s written Word. Time and again they accused Jesus of breaking the Law because he performed miraculous cures on the Sabbath. By forcefully refuting their unscriptural teachings, Jesus challenged both their authority and their claims of having an approved standing with God. By contrast, Jesus came from a humble background and lacked their formal religious education. No wonder it was so difficult for such proud men to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah! Such confrontations so enraged them that they “took counsel against [Jesus] that they might destroy him.”—Matthew 12:1-8, 14; 15:1-9.

How, though, could the religious leaders explain away Jesus’ ability to perform miracles? They did not deny that the miracles occurred. Instead, they blasphemously tried to undermine faith in Jesus by attributing his power to Satan, saying: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”—Matthew 12:24.

There was another deep-seated reason for their adamant refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. After Jesus resurrected Lazarus, leaders of the various religious factions consulted together and said: “What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” For fear of losing their power and position, the religious leaders conspired to kill both Jesus and Lazarus!—John 11:45-53; 12:9-11.

Community Prejudice and Persecution

The attitude of first-century Jewish religious leaders created a social climate that was hostile to anyone accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Taking pride in their prominent positions, they belittled anyone showing faith in Jesus, saying: “Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he?” (John 7:13, 48) Some Jewish leaders, such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, did become disciples of Jesus, but they kept their faith secret out of fear. (John 3:1, 2; 12:42; 19:38, 39) The Jewish leaders had decreed that “if anyone confessed [Jesus] as Christ, he should get expelled from the synagogue.” (John 9:22) Such a person would be shunned and scorned as a social outcast.
...
Learn From Those Who Rejected Jesus

As we have seen, misconceptions, community pressure, and persecution prevented many in the first century from putting faith in Jesus. Today, erroneous ideas about Jesus and his teachings can have a similar effect. For example, many have been taught that God’s Kingdom is in their heart or will come about by human efforts. Others are persuaded to look to science or technology for solutions to mankind’s problems, thus doing away with the need to put faith in the Messiah. Many modern critics assert that the events of Jesus’ ministry recorded in the Bible are not historical facts; these men thus undermine faith in Jesus as the Messiah.

The result of such ideas and theories is that many have either been confused as to the role of the Messiah or see no need to consider the matter. However, for those who are willing to examine the evidence, there is actually more proof today that Jesus is the Messiah than there was in the first century. We have the entire Hebrew Scriptures containing numerous prophecies about what the Messiah would do and the record in the four Biblical Gospels of what Jesus did in fulfillment of those prophecies.*

There is really no lack of evidence by which each one of us can make an informed choice or decision in this matter.
...
*: See the chart “Prophecies Regarding the Messiah” on page 200 of the book What Does the Bible Really Teach? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The situation hasn't changed much today regarding Jewish religious leaders that like to be called "Rabbi" (/teacher) as a religious title.

Matthew 23:4-8

4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards* [Or “broaden their phylacteries.”] and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front* [Or “best.”] seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi* [Or “Teacher.”] by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers.

Eccl.1:9

9 What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.


They still like to be called "Rabbi" and they're still teaching their own human doctrines. They still try to undermine Jesus' credibility and those of his followers or those who defend Jesus against their false teachings and deceptive arguments. And since there are also still "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" (2 Cor 11:13) you get the type of useless WWF wrestling debates as the one shared in the OP. Or WWE wrestling it's called now.
edit on 3-1-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 06:05 AM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

They were expecting, One who would deliver them from bondage, and after jesus died. They were stil in bondage....

Perhaps I shouldn't have skipped this part in my previous comment. From the same article:

Why Did They Reject the Messiah?

WHEN Jesus was on earth, the crowds were enthralled by the things he said and amazed by the miracles he performed. As a result, many “put faith in him” and accepted him as the foretold Messiah, or Christ. They reasoned: “When the Christ arrives, he will not perform more signs than this man has performed, will he?”—John 7:31.

Despite the overwhelming evidence in support of Jesus’ identity as the Messiah, the majority of those who saw and heard Jesus did not become believers. Sadly, even some who initially believed turned away later. Why did so many reject Jesus as the Messiah in spite of the powerful evidence? Let us consider the reasons, and as we do, ask yourself, ‘Could I be in danger of making a similar mistake today?’

Unfulfilled Expectations

At the time of Jesus’ birth, many Jews were expecting the appearance of the Messiah. When Jesus was brought as an infant to the temple, he was met by those “waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance” by the promised Messiah. (Luke 2:38) Later, many who observed the works of John the Baptizer wondered: “May he perhaps be the Christ?” (Luke 3:15) What, though, were the Jews in the first century expecting the Messiah to do?

The common belief among the Jews in those days was that the Messiah would come and liberate them from the oppressive Roman yoke and restore the earthly kingdom of Israel. Before Jesus began his ministry, a number of charismatic leaders arose and advocated violent resistance to the existing political rule. What these men did likely influenced the people’s expectations of the Messiah.

Jesus stood in stark contrast to such false Messiahs. He did not promote violence but taught his listeners to love their enemies and to be submissive to the authorities. (Matthew 5:41-44) He rejected the people’s efforts to make him a king. Instead, he taught that his kingdom was to be “no part of this world.” (John 6:15; 18:36) Still, preconceived ideas about the Messiah exerted a very strong influence on the people.

John the Baptizer personally saw and heard miraculous evidence establishing Jesus’ identity as God’s Son. Yet, when John was imprisoned, he sent his disciples to ask Jesus: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?” (Matthew 11:3) Perhaps John wondered if Jesus was indeed the promised Deliverer, who would fulfill the Jews’ expectations.

Jesus’ apostles found it difficult to understand that he would be killed and then resurrected. On one occasion when Jesus explained that it would be necessary for the Messiah to suffer and die, Peter “took him aside and started rebuking him.” (Mark 8:31, 32) Peter was not yet able to see how Jesus’ death could fit in with his role as the Messiah.

Upon entering Jerusalem shortly before Passover 33 C.E., Jesus was welcomed by enthusiastic crowds hailing him as King. (John 12:12, 13) How quickly the situation changed! Within the week, Jesus was arrested and executed. After Jesus’ death, two of his disciples lamented: “We were hoping that this man was the one destined to deliver Israel.” (Luke 24:21) Even when the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples, the idea that the Messiah would establish an earthly kingdom still lingered. They asked: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” Clearly, mistaken expectations about the Messiah were deeply entrenched in the hearts and minds of Jesus’ listeners.—Acts 1:6.

After Jesus’ ascension to heaven and the outpouring of the holy spirit, his disciples came to understand clearly that the Messiah would rule as a heavenly King. (Acts 2:1-4, 32-36) The apostles Peter and John boldly preached about Jesus’ resurrection and gave evidence of God’s backing by performing miracles themselves. (Acts 3:1-9, 13-15) Thousands in Jerusalem responded and became believers. This, however, did not sit well with the Jewish authorities. Just as they had opposed Jesus, they now opposed his apostles and disciples. Why did the Jewish religious leaders so fiercely reject Jesus?
...
As we have seen, misconceptions, community pressure, and persecution prevented many in the first century from putting faith in Jesus. Today, erroneous ideas about Jesus and his teachings can have a similar effect. For example, many have been taught that God’s Kingdom is in their heart or will come about by human efforts.
...



posted on Jan, 3 2018 @ 07:53 AM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox
To them, the Bible says nothing about a “son of god” , ...

If you go through the list of prophecy > fullfillment in the chart linked earlier you will come across Psalm 2:7. Here it is in context, this prophecy is about the Messiah/Christ, or the "anointed one", the one approved of by Jehovah to be King and High Priest.

Psalm 2

Why are the nations agitated

And the peoples muttering an empty thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And high officials gather together as one

Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.* [Or “his Christ.”]

3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles

And throw off their ropes!”

4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh;

Jehovah will scoff at them.

5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger

And terrify them in his burning anger,

6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king

On Zion, my holy mountain.”

7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;

He said to me: “You are my son;

Today I have become your father.


8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance

And the ends of the earth as your possession.

9 You will break them with an iron scepter,

And you will smash them like a piece of pottery.”

10 So now, you kings, show insight;

Accept correction, you judges of the earth.

11 Serve Jehovah with fear,

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Honor the son, or God will become indignant

And you will perish from the way,

For His anger flares up quickly.

Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.


Regarding verse 7, Matthew 3:17:

Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

Or here's another one, Isaiah 9:6,7:

6 For a child has been born to us,

A son has been given to us;

And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.

His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7 To the increase of his rulership

And to peace, there will be no end,

On the throne of David and on his kingdom

In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it

Through justice and righteousness,

From now on and forever.

The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

edit on 3-1-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)




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