Chess master refuses to wear required saudi clothes, forfeits title

a reply to: Willtell

"Let me educate you further" ...

You know, all due respect, BUT...it almost doesn't matter how "right" (or wrong) someone might be, whenever someone makes makes a completely arrogant statement like "let me educate you further" it almost immediately negates everything which follows. That has to be the pinnacle of arrogance in a discussion, that statement. It also usually indicates someone has no idea what they're talking about...even if they do.

Just saying.

a reply to: Phage

The KGB 'Independent'..

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: Guardian10
Islam isn't a Religion, it's a Cult. Or didn't you know that? Look it up.

Islam is a religion.

It’s not a cult.

It has a rich tradition other than these backward Saudis who actually are practicing a cult and it’s known as Wahhabism

Islam produced probably the most enlightened, civilization culture in history, the great Moorish kingdom and many more highly civilized groups, that helped Europe out of the dark ages.
You had the Ottoman Turks, Umayyad kingdom, Fatimid’s of Egypt, the Seljuk Turks and the great Mughal Empire of India

Islam has brought great civilization and advances to the world

Huh you think these Muslim countries helped them out of the dark ages by constantly attacking and enslaving people for hundreds of years? Do you know history? Nearly constant Muslim invasion.

Islam just took from the Roman's and byzantines that was lost in the western Roman empire Greek knowledge not Muslim. What an Islamic apologist look at history. Im sure you rebuttal is bu but the crusades.

And maybe this Ukrainian lady know here history of here people being the last line of defense from the Ottoman hordes?

Welcome to 2017. The age of computer chips and satellites........and dark ages backwards humaning on all sides.

Hoorah for an advancing mankind!!! Sorry personkind......

The way some people act in the world and their views towards gender is sadly ridiculous.

But also ridiculous is going to somewhere like Saudi Arabia and being surprised as to how they expect you to behave.
Gotta be pretty naive to not know what to expect.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do or just stay home from the get go.
Just as easy to make a statement or give a press interview about your reasoning without leaving your home soil.

I'm on the fence here. The stupidity is massive on both sides. As is usually the case with everything these days.

The Arabs are idiots, the feminist protesters are idiots.

Now excuse me, I hate being mauled by bears, but as I am a human I must go poke one with a stick, then cry about how unexpected and surprised I am the bear chewed my face off. I should be allowed to hug wild bears and poke them with a stick ignoring all common sense and logic, because I have feelings and rights. And that is all that matters. ME! Screw everyone else.

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

Excellent points, all!

I agree, there is no sense of balance in this issue. Two wrongs don't make a "right".

You make an interesting reference in your 1st paragraph which I hadn't considered. ...

In today's world of modern technology, why couldn't this gal play the match remotely?? Then she could sit there and play naked if she wanted to and no one would even know. It's not like it's a tennis match where both parties have to be physically present to play the game. Then this whole discussion, this whole issue, would just be a moot point.

originally posted by: JDmOKI

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: Guardian10
Islam isn't a Religion, it's a Cult. Or didn't you know that? Look it up.

Islam is a religion.

It’s not a cult.

It has a rich tradition other than these backward Saudis who actually are practicing a cult and it’s known as Wahhabism

Islam produced probably the most enlightened, civilization culture in history, the great Moorish kingdom and many more highly civilized groups, that helped Europe out of the dark ages.
You had the Ottoman Turks, Umayyad kingdom, Fatimid’s of Egypt, the Seljuk Turks and the great Mughal Empire of India

Islam has brought great civilization and advances to the world

Huh you think these Muslim countries helped them out of the dark ages by constantly attacking and enslaving people for hundreds of years? Do you know history? Nearly constant Muslim invasion.

Islam just took from the Roman's and byzantines that was lost in the western Roman empire Greek knowledge not Muslim. What an Islamic apologist look at history. Im sure you rebuttal is bu but the crusades.

And maybe this Ukrainian lady know here history of here people being the last line of defense from the Ottoman hordes?

Unlike you bigots, I recognize all people contributed to advancement.

You ever heard of the Moors.


Your ignorance is clear if you don’t know what they did in Spain

Allowed the Jews to live in peace, were the most advanced society on earth!

Also, any historian will tell you the Arab African Moors helped the Europeans out of the dark ages

As far as ancient knowledge, those Greeks you talk about and Romans got their gods and knowledge from the Egyptians.

And in-fact the Arab interpretation of the Greek classics was one thing that helped the Europeans become civilized.

You guys are just ignorant bigots who spew hatred for 2 billion people on the planet

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: JDmOKI

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: Guardian10
Islam isn't a Religion, it's a Cult. Or didn't you know that? Look it up.

Islam is a religion.

It’s not a cult.

It has a rich tradition other than these backward Saudis who actually are practicing a cult and it’s known as Wahhabism

Islam produced probably the most enlightened, civilization culture in history, the great Moorish kingdom and many more highly civilized groups, that helped Europe out of the dark ages.
You had the Ottoman Turks, Umayyad kingdom, Fatimid’s of Egypt, the Seljuk Turks and the great Mughal Empire of India

Islam has brought great civilization and advances to the world

Huh you think these Muslim countries helped them out of the dark ages by constantly attacking and enslaving people for hundreds of years? Do you know history? Nearly constant Muslim invasion.

Islam just took from the Roman's and byzantines that was lost in the western Roman empire Greek knowledge not Muslim. What an Islamic apologist look at history. Im sure you rebuttal is bu but the crusades.

And maybe this Ukrainian lady know here history of here people being the last line of defense from the Ottoman hordes?

Unlike you bigots, I recognize all people contributed to advancement.

You ever heard of the Moors.


Your ignorance is clear if you don’t know what they did in Spain

Allowed the Jews to live in peace, were the most advanced society on earth!

Also, any historian will tell you the Arab African Moors helped the Europeans out of the dark ages

As far as ancient knowledge, those Greeks you talk about and Romans got their gods and knowledge from the Egyptians.

And in-fact the Arab interpretation of the Greek classics was one thing that helped the Europeans become civilized.

You guys are just ignorant bigots who spew hatred for 2 billion people on the planet

What religion has physical amputations and death penalty as punishments?

Many believe the prophet of Islam consumated a child marriage, and believe this is an example to be followed.

originally posted by: Xenogears

What religion has physical amputations and death penalty as punishments?

The bible for one. Maybe not amputation, but definitely death. The US still has capital punishment in many states despite being mostly Christian.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Xenogears

What religion has physical amputations and death penalty as punishments?

The bible for one.

Maybe not amputation, but definitely death. The US still has capital punishment in many states despite being mostly Christian.

Afaik jews no longer follow stoning. Christians can debate death penalty and abolish it. But can a muslim question divinely ordained penalties and call them nondivine without becoming an apostate?

a reply to: Grambler

Much of what you write I tend to agree with whole heartedly but on this one you got it completely wrong. I totally disagree with you.

This has nothing to do with standing up for one's own personal beliefs. She decided to disrespect a host country regarding their dress code. She deserves to be stripped of her title.

Your argument supports asshole refugees and / or immigrants going into any country and expecting that host country to change their laws and customs simply because they disagree with them.

You're completely off on your logic with this one.

If i were her, i would cosplay in a japanese ninja garb with sword and ninja stars.

Have you seen these tourists dressed like 'ninja' taking selfie? LOL

a reply to: Willtell

Of course I know the moors I'm half sicilian ya know the place that got raped and pillage by the moors

a reply to: Willtell

Muslims didn't help europe out of the dark ages.... What did Islam do in Spain? More religious war of conquest? I know my history and Islam didn't invent Roman Greek byzantine Egyptian Persian knowledge they just took it from the people they subjugate.

Sorry I'm an ignorant bigot against a religion, not race, of two billion people lol. I bet you're not even a Muslim just an apologist which I never ever will understand

a reply to: Outlier13

Since when does a host country's preferences on dress code supersede what a sport decides in a appropriate for it?

Often there are reasons why people who compete in a sport dress the way they do to compete. Now, chess may not have the physical realities, but as a sport, the governing body still has a right to set a dress code and insist that it be followed regardless of the social mores of the country hosting, and yes, that would mean if they decide black pants/white shirt is the code and a country of nudists host, then the nudists competing should still wear the chess uniform and not the national dress.

My question here is whether or not SA is pre-empting the dress code for chess with their own cultural whims as it pertains to women.

originally posted by: Xenogears

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Xenogears

What religion has physical amputations and death penalty as punishments?

The bible for one.

Maybe not amputation, but definitely death. The US still has capital punishment in many states despite being mostly Christian.

Afaik jews no longer follow stoning. Christians can debate death penalty and abolish it. But can a muslim question divinely ordained penalties and call them nondivine without becoming an apostate?

Not under Sharia, obviously, but not all Muslims live that way, there are many moderates. It all depends on how extreme you interpret your particular holy book. One could take the Quran literally or the bible. They both call for death penalty and other harsh penalties for breaking divine commandments. Both religions have that stuff, but people interpret the various faiths in many ways.

Good for her. Hope more women will follow! Why is is so hard for saudis to respect wamen? Still stuck in the dark ages!

a reply to: ketsuko

Since when does a GUEST dictate cultural nuances inside of the host country?

Based on your logic if you were to invite me to your house for dinner and upon my arrival you requested me to remove my shoes and I did not then you would be ok with that? Then I proceeded to prop my feet on the dinner table you would be ok with that? Or if I pushed aside the eating utensils and ate with my fingers, etc., etc. Your logic would dictate that I could break every cultural rule of your house and you would be fine with it.

It's just common sense. You do not go into a host country as a guest and not abide by the cultural norms of that country. It matters absolutely not if you agree or disagree with the host country's cultural rules. Not one single bit.

a reply to: Outlier13

Countries like that are completely backwards. IMO, there is nothing wrong with standing up against countries that STILL oppress women in 2017. Forget cultural nuances, freedom is more important. Everybody should be standing against Saudia Arabia. They are one of the most oppressive regimes out there, yet our government is buddy buddy with them and turns a blind eye to the oppression while simultaneously taking a stance against Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc and using the oppression of women as an excuse to conduct military actions against them. It's hypocritical.

Nobody should be forced to respect a country like that. If somebody down the street invited me to their house for dinner, and they were known for domestic abuse, racism and spreading hatred, I would refuse to go to their house, just like how the the lady refused to compete in the country. A country like that should not be allowed to have title chess matches. The only reason she would even visit that place is because the tournament was held there. In my eyes it's extremely dumb that she would lose the title for not competing in a country that treats her sex inferior.

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: Outlier13

Countries like that are completely backwards.

That's not the point of this debate. Your opinion is irrelevant. Unless you are a citizen of Saudi Arabia then your opinion means nothing.

People don't get to just make up the rules in a foreign country just because they don't agree with them.

She could have used her celebrity and the air time she would have received and utilized that to her advantage to press a message of change while being respectful of a host country's customs. She could have won both titles AND the $2M prize and used that money to mount an awareness campaign for meaningful change if she hadn't acted without thinking it out in advance.

She missed a golden opportunity for making a legitimate change. She made the wrong move.

a reply to: Outlier13

I never said somebody should make up the rules of a foreign country. I said that folks have every right to protest their oppressive regime by not going there or competing in events there. When an international chess champion does not compete in an country like that, it makes a statement. It DE-legitimizes the country and them being allowed to host a tournament in the first place. You think it will do nothing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the chess committee stops hosting future chess tournaments in that country as a result.

The issue is the chess organization forcing her to compete in that country. That's why she lost the title. She wasn't going to SA out of the goodness of her heart, she was forced to defend the title there and refused. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would rather lose a title than legitimize a POS country like that.