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American Airpower Attitudes

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posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 04:47 AM
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Greetings,

To be honest, I have been temped to write this post ever since joining this forum, so far I have met some truly great people here, that feel that sharing opinions and listing to others as a great past time, but sadly I find that all the good on this forum comes to nothing when threads are hijacked and disrupted when [usally] some american trumps up with

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

I grant you, its an opinion and to a degree its a fair one, but this line can not and is not always create, people know of american technology and training, we do not require 3 or 4 children to repeat that till the moon is hits the planet.

American Airpower will not always get through.

American Helicopters are not the best, the Tiger has a better defence and attack system in place.

American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.

American training is not the best, in my OPINION, it is on par with many other nations, the UK, Canada, France and Germany.

I am not demanding that you change your opinions, I am asking that people that use the:

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

Have some respect to the people that are talking within the thread. If you want to talk about american training, use examples, or real life accounts if in reference to the thread but do not keep repeating the same line over and over again.

Respect is a two way street, this forum has a good european membership that do not scream at americans, we listen, from what people I have read. If those americans were to give the european members and their armed forces the respect they deserve there would be no hostility and the possibilities of threads NOT being hijacked in reference to american technology superiority.

Yours Faithfully
- Philip




posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 05:39 AM
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gooseuk great post.

Another classic example is that some people say the likes of the DELTA force are the worlds best special forces because they are american. Its like trying to convince americans that guns dont prevent crime you will never get any reason why somethinks American special forces are best.
The America is "best" train of thought is a part of there culture and it can be there undoing the yanks will never admit there useless at winning the battle for hearts and minds.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by gooseuk
Greetings,

To be honest, I have been temped to write this post ever since joining this forum, so far I have met some truly great people here, that feel that sharing opinions and listing to others as a great past time, but sadly I find that all the good on this forum comes to nothing when threads are hijacked and disrupted when [usally] some american trumps up with

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

American Airpower will not always get through.

American Helicopters are not the best, the Tiger has a better defence and attack system in place.

American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.

American training is not the best, in my OPINION, it is on par with many other nations, the UK, Canada, France and Germany.

I am not demanding that you change your opinions, I am asking that people that use the:

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

Have some respect to the people that are talking within the thread. If you want to talk about american training, use examples, or real life accounts if in reference to the thread but do not keep repeating the same line over and over again.

Respect is a two way street, this forum has a good european membership that do not scream at americans, we listen, from what people I have read. If those americans were to give the european members and their armed forces the respect they deserve there would be no hostility and the possibilities of threads NOT being hijacked in reference to american technology superiority.

Yours Faithfully
- Philip


I agree with you 100%, and I'm American! America is like every other nation, we have strengths and we have weaknesses. Second, As the Germans proved in WW2 and the US proved in Viet Nam, It's good Strategy not Technology that wins wars. If we are going to have a good dicussion about technology, I think we need to start looking at it in a "Strategic" context: What are it's stringths, weaknesses and limitations in light of it's intended use. Let's give this a try and see if our discussions don't become more productive!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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Fair enough.

But let's be real here. There really is no country that combines the training, technology, and numbers that the US has. There is simply no getting around that. When it comes to airpower, everyone else is overmatched, and every one knows it. It is not opinion - it is fact.

I think you will find that the majority of "America is the best" posts are in response to someone saying they are not. So what do you expect? Do you want Americans on this site to not respond when some numbskull tries to say that the Raptor really isn't that good? Or that the B-2 really isn't that stealthy? Or the USAF is totally over rated because of some bogus exercise with India?

You have to understand that on this site, Americ is ALWAYS getting trashed. Everything is ALWAYS Americas fault, America is NEVER doing anything right. Everyone else is ALWAYS right and America is ALWAYS wrong.

So the way I see it it is a 2 way street. Everyone loves to trash us and devalue our accomplishments. You did it in your post..."without the Britts...bla bla bla.....". Guess what - you can't lay claim to Americas accomplishments. Everything is based on something else, OK? We have better tehnology right now - PERIOD. If you want me to go into detail I will.

And how about Britts attitudes towards American SOFs? Its always "Delta force and the SEALs couln't hold the SASs jock". Yeah right. I have a couple of friends that would dissagree with that. Guys that have spent their adult lives training. Some of the best athletes and minds I have ever met. But no, of course the Britts are better. Why? They just are.


It's the same kind of utter garbage that comes from blatant patriotism. Get a clue Britts - your SAS are actually *gasp* on par and in some cases INFERIOR to US SOFs.

The problem is that as much as everyone hates to admit it, the US is top dog right now, and it gets in the way of everyone elses ego.

So go single out someone else, OK. Because quite frankly it's getting old having eveeryone bash the US and then cry when we say that we are superior in some way. There is a large group of people on these forums that live to just rip the US - go make a post about them.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 10:33 AM
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So basically, American Mad Man, your arguement boils down to 'they just are' - exactly the same arguement you use as an example of poor reasoning


If the US SOF are currently top dog (I disagree - they are over controlled by beuracracy in most cases), then its taken them a LONG time to get there - their readyness, training and general usefulness in the 1980s and early 1990s were really dispicable.

There is a lot to be said about the old Soviet Spetznas - they were an excellent fighting force.

THere are reasons us Brits promote the SAS and SBS so much - you should read up on them sometime. Their selection, training and readyness really is on a completely differnet level than most other SOF teams in the world. They may not be the 'best' by some measuring sticks, but theyve done some seriously spectacular things in their time.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:55 PM
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I personally like the Spetsnaz, they have great weapons and tactics.

The best is probably the SAS, this is the general concensous it seems, but the US isn't far behind with the SEALs and Delta Force (albeit not much is known about Delta Force).

But all i'd like to say, no one is the best, NO ONE! they all are good at some things and not so good at others.

US Marines have kicked US Navy SEALs in some excercizes, we in Holland totally kicked the Green Berets in an excercise, just by our grunts...

The US have great pilot training, but I believe we train our ground forces much better, and nothing matches European tanks (this can be argued about), the Challenger II, the STRV-122 (Swedish Leopard 2A6 variant) and Leopard 2A6 are great tanks, the M1A2 SEP has some better optics, but the Armor is British and the gun is German...

So it's fair to say the Europeans rule the Tank scene, but China also has great capabilities, just look at their Tank Killing vehicles, they can shoot right through the frontal armor of the M1A2.

My point should be clear by now...



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by gooseuk
Greetings,

To be honest, I have been temped to write this post ever since joining this forum, so far I have met some truly great people here, that feel that sharing opinions and listing to others as a great past time, but sadly I find that all the good on this forum comes to nothing when threads are hijacked and disrupted when [usally] some american trumps up with

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

I grant you, its an opinion and to a degree its a fair one, but this line can not and is not always create, people know of american technology and training, we do not require 3 or 4 children to repeat that till the moon is hits the planet.

American Airpower will not always get through.

American Helicopters are not the best, the Tiger has a better defence and attack system in place.

American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.

American training is not the best, in my OPINION, it is on par with many other nations, the UK, Canada, France and Germany.

I am not demanding that you change your opinions, I am asking that people that use the:

"With American technology and training, no one has a chance"

Have some respect to the people that are talking within the thread. If you want to talk about american training, use examples, or real life accounts if in reference to the thread but do not keep repeating the same line over and over again.

Respect is a two way street, this forum has a good european membership that do not scream at americans, we listen, from what people I have read. If those americans were to give the european members and their armed forces the respect they deserve there would be no hostility and the possibilities of threads NOT being hijacked in reference to american technology superiority.

Yours Faithfully
- Philip


And your opinion is as good as any.

BUT, claiming credit for initial inventions means nothing. Saying "because they invented this, it enabled the other guy to.." logic is silly. For every example like that you can give, another nation can as well, including the US.

And you are right in the sense that the USA cannot be the best in everything, but one cold hard fact remains: The USA spends more on its military than the rest of the world, I forget the number, but double the next closest nations expendature.

The USA has the best overall military due to this simple fact. Its not that the US is more clever, it may or may not be, it just invests the cash. And some other nations may have a highlight in a tech or another that may rival or exceed the US in that particular area. But overall its all USA.

So dont get offended when somebody from the USA states something about its militay superiority. What they say may or may not be fact, but odds are its correct.

If you and I collected baseball cards and you spent twice as much money on your collection than I did, wouldnt your collection be more impressive?

Anyways, its just opinions and yours is just fine. But still just an opinion.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by RichardPrice
There is a lot to be said about the old Soviet Spetznas - they were an excellent fighting force.


I highly doubt this is true.
1. The "old" Spetznatz were CONSCRIPTS with only 2 years of service. Even with hard Russian training, I don't think 2 years is enough to gain enough experiences and once you have gained them you are already "out".
2 There were too MANY of them (tens of thousands) to be the best of the best. Who do you think is more elite, 20 000 Spetznatz or 300 man unit from SAS/Delta?



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by gooseuk

American Helicopters are not the best, the Tiger has a better defence and attack system in place.


It's true that US helicopters are not the best. But the best is not Tiger, but russian Hokum. BTW I think it's quite funny to argue with EuroTiger when
1. it is basically just a smaller Apache, only 20 years behind, congrats.
2. US is not designing new helicopters today. Apaches are simply good enough. And they could do it. For example helo with NOTAR system, or VTDP. They had better WORKING helicopter desings(of course not electronics) than todays Tiger already during 60-70ties (Chayenne for example).



American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.


In oposition to you I think that if the Britain was anihilated, there WOULD be radar and computer. It is arguable who in fact developed the first real computer and who developed radar (the first sucesfull use of radio waves to locate a object was made already 1922 by Americans A. H. Taylor and L. C. Young from Naval Research Laboratory and the first test with pulse radar alowing to locate a distance and velocity was also made by Americans).



[edit on 14-2-2005 by longbow]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:24 PM
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This is typical of the attitude in most countries since the mentalit of a military force revolves around victory and superiority. None of the conteporary forces mentioned have been engaged inprolonged total conflict so we cannot really say whether or not any particular one is superior.
I do know however that the US military has a first class for logistical ablility whereas many countries have considered them initially ametuerish but adaptable in combat. The Wermacht held this view in the days of the Kasserine pass before the ostfront had bled them totally dry. There would be a few NVA and Vietcong generals who would agree too.

My guess at the alltime elite fighting force would be the SS-Panzergrenadiers.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Waging combat is very much like a football(NFL) game. It is the completeness of the team that wins it all. Take the Patriots, not the best offence, defence or special teams in the league but they're in the top 5 in all three catagories. Similarly the US Air force leads in some catagories but are also well along in others, although not leading. When you look at the whole, let's face it, they're #1.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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Hmmm,

Some interesting points, I agree that at present the US defence buget is more than some counties WHOLE buget, the UK for one just can not compeat with that, I will be the first to sit here and admit it, the UK armed forces are doing their job with guns that jam after 3 rounds, AS90s that melt [corrected so I have been told] and CAP aircraft like the Jag having already being removed. The UK relies on its special and complex training to help keep the work force as the best in the world.

The difference between us is that, I do not force the option or assumption that the UK Armed Forces are the greatest on the planet, nor do I take the victim stance when some thing bad or negitive is said about my Force. I read it and comment to the best of my ability, that is the sole purpose of this forum, not a channel for Americans to force information like "USA is the best" etc down peoples throats. That is in my opinion why there are some negitive feeling against americans when this happens.

I know the failings of my force, I know the failings of the Royal Navy and the RAF, I am more than happy to dicuss those with the members on this forum, thats the difference I suppose from what I have read of the people that claim american superiority, I can accept the failing and respect nations forces, some people on this forum, lack that ability.

I agree that the US Military has a great buget, but doesn't make it the best, I agree whole heartly that the US Navy are the best at sea at the moment, we have an advantage in torpedo design, but have limited hardware, we each have pros and cons.

The Raptor is nice, so is the B2 and F117, I agree that I would love the RAF to have some but ::shrugs:: It doesn't make them unkillable. How would you explain the serbs using a SA 4 to shoot down a F117? Sure it should have been invisable, but it doesn't mean that it can't be shot down.

At the minute, The Swedish have the best light fighter in service, the french have an amazing defence and attack fighter, the uk are greating an ok fighter, not a fan of the eurofighter. We have currently the leader in Meduim range tactical transports, the EH 101, the US are even using them for the President tranport, I think it is called marine one?

The Challenger 2 could do with a better fire control system, but the armour on this vehicle can't be beaten.

Hehe as for Training... that is a sore spot, I have worked with americans in my duties, they are professionals, but do they reach the level of training I have recieved... to be honest, I think they come pretty close but, for the enviroments and situations they are in now, they are feeling the rub.

As for the American SOF Community. heh you complete a 6 week course and you special operations capable, hmm that to me doesn't impile special forces, the marines do this also, I would agree that the American Delta are on par with the SAS and the Navy Seals on Par with Royal Marines, do I think the US Rangers are special forces? NO, they are merely Paras in my opinions, we train in different ways and for different situations, I refuse to sit here and listen to some twit that merely state the the US is the greatest just because of its buget, the US go by numbers in their ground forces, we train the crap out our troops, so they are ready for any thing, then we keep training them over and over again. It never ends.

I would rate the GSG9 and DELTA higher in CT in reference to hostage situations., due to the "train" they use in the situation comparied to the SAS, in the jungle I wouldn't rate any goomer too highly against a SAS trooper in the boonies


I could sit here and wave vietnam in your face all you like, how a poorly equiped armed force attacked the US military and won. assuming your the best doesn't make your the best, we each have our own advantages.

The only thing I want is that some of the american community to do is to open their minds and dispell the myth that the US is the greatest, I agree you are up there, I personally would put the Swedish forces at the top of the table at the moment. In my OPINION the US are setting themselves up for a fall.

I don't expect Americans to drop the "We are the greatest in every thing attiude" but if people are willing to keep it up there will be people like me fighting to the line to get some people to open up their minds. If the trend continues unchecked, americans will be the only nation still on this forum.

- Philip


[edit on 14-2-2005 by gooseuk]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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the f-117 was shot down because the serbs shot blindly in its path that it always flew, never occured again tho..



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Hmm interesting.

I agree that, that statement was a postibility, but the thing is, for serbs to launch a surface to air missile, they would in all effective terms be broadcasting the radar and launcher systems location to all ecm assests in the region, in 5 years of peace keeping duties, the serbs have only shot at aircraft when they have a higher than 70% of hitting an aircraft. They hate losing launchers for nothing, that is fact, also it should also be noted that the f117 was clustered in, aka they had to fly down the valley to escape from the area, kinda smart in my opinion, Stealth can;t get past radar that points up ::grins:: nor IR. I would give the serbs some credit. This is the respect thing I keep talking about.

- Philip

[edit on 14-2-2005 by gooseuk]

[edit on 14-2-2005 by gooseuk]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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i think this situation has to be looked at objectively. the us has the biggest budget, this has allowed it to become the largest(with the exception of china in numbers) and technologically most advanced military force. okay i dont think this can be argued with. their huge budget has allowed them to have a massive and highly compartmentalised force. for example, in terms of aircraft technicians the us will have a relatively large team with each techie having a fairly limited number of tasks he has to perform. he will be an expert on these tasks and will be adequately trained to do the task he has been given. the uk techies are a different bunch entirely. cutbacks have forced techies to take on more and more jobs, for instance currently the raf are amalgamating the avionics and electrical technician trades. this means that where once each man would know one trade or the other, now he must know both. this means that he is more highly trained than his american counterpart but he has got a much larger amount of work to do.

given a larger budget it is likely that any force would move to the us way of working, but they dont so they must make up for their shortfalls with higher levels of training. it is alot cheaper to train an existing recruit to be able to do more than to hire a new recruit to do the extra work, it is basic economics.

from experience it has been found that even relatively advanced forces such as the uk have difficuilty integrating with us forces because of the technology shortfall. the uk is just about keeping up with the us enough such that the two can operate together(in iraq for instance). other european forces such as france, germany and italy are pretty similar in size and strength to the uk, with each having their strengths and weaknesses.

the fact of the matter is, you will never hear a european pilot say he is less well trained than his american counterpart and he will probably be right, but the us pilots dont have to be as well trained as their aircraft are generally superior so its probably a fairly even match.

i would say that it is likely that us forces will be superior in training to the likes of china, india and possibly russia(allthough you wont here the russians say that)

as for special forces.....who really cares, by their very nature they will never admit to being inferior to another force. they are trained to think they are the best, it makes them mentally stronger. so to know a true strength of a special force you must first be in it, and if you are in it you will say that it is the best. therefore it is impossible to get an objective view of who is "better" than who.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by RichardPrice
So basically, American Mad Man, your arguement boils down to 'they just are' - exactly the same arguement you use as an example of poor reasoning


Do you want specifics? I mean, I can give you numbers, figures, and all of that other crap.

I can tell you that the USAF enjoys the most flight hours. I can tell you that the US has the only stealth aircraft in the world. I can tell you we have the best infrastructure. Bla bla ba. But we all know this now don't we?

We all KNOW the US has the most MODERN aircraft with pilots that get great training.

Russia has the numbers, and maybe comparable technology, but a large part of their airforce is outdated and they don't train their pilots nearly as well.

The UK, Isreal etc have the planes and training, but no where near the numbers.

It's just the way it is it is not opinion. If you think that there is any single country that can match the US, please state your case.



If the US SOF are currently top dog (I disagree - they are over controlled by beuracracy in most cases), then its taken them a LONG time to get there - their readyness, training and general usefulness in the 1980s and early 1990s were really dispicable.

There is a lot to be said about the old Soviet Spetznas - they were an excellent fighting force.


The problem is that the US SOFs were mostly created in the 70's and early 80's. Sure, back then the SAS probably had a leg up on them because of experience. But I can tell you, I know Navy SEALs - they train with SAS and other international SOF units. From what I have been told, the SAS and US forces are very equal, with certain individuals and units slightly better then others. Also, you have to understand that an SAS guy is not going to be as good at aquatic operations just as a SEAL might not have a particular skill of another group.

As for Spetznaz - they are tough, but not that good.

Look at their last two high profile missions - the School and theater...

How many people died?

THere are reasons us Brits promote the SAS and SBS so much - you should read up on them sometime. Their selection, training and readyness really is on a completely differnet level than most other SOF teams in the world. They may not be the 'best' by some measuring sticks, but theyve done some seriously spectacular things in their time.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by American Mad Man]

[edit on 14-2-2005 by American Mad Man]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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American Helicopters are not the best, the Tiger has a better defence and attack system in place.

- Philip


Wrong. The AH-64D Apache Longbow is the best in the world. The Tiger does have a smaller RCS but the AH-64 flies low enough to evade radar anyway. It utilizes the Longbow radar, which is the best helicopter radar in the world, and it uses the hellfire, nuff said.

And for the other sutff you said, some of it is valid, but the fact remains that the US is the world's only superpower that combines quanity and quality. Training wise, I would put the US, UK, and Israel for top troop training. For pilots, Israel comes first, then the US, then maybe the RAF or Luftwaffe at a distant third.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by gooseuk


American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.



Well by that thinking the British or Germans wouldnt have any fighters or any planes if not not for the Invention of two US bicycles mechanics the Wright Brothers.

The whole arguement is bunk



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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and nothing matches European tanks (this can be argued about), the Challenger II, the STRV-122 (Swedish Leopard 2A6 variant) and Leopard 2A6 are great tanks, the M1A2 SEP has some better optics, but the Armor is British and the gun is German...

So it's fair to say the Europeans rule the Tank scene, but China also has great capabilities, just look at their Tank Killing vehicles, they can shoot right through the frontal armor of the M1A2.

My point should be clear by now...


Right about the gun, wrong about the armor. This is a common misconceoption, the Abrams actually uses steel-encased DU armor, while the Challenger 2E uses second gen chobham armore, both have about the same level of protection.

And about Europeans ruling the tank scene, that is wrong. The Abrams has a superior Fire Control System, bascially finding other tanks before the Abrams gets spotted, whoever gets spotted first loses, and that's why the Abrams is #1.



[edit on 14-2-2005 by Hockeyguy567]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by gooseuk


American Fighters have only been able to develop because of the british designing the first computer, also there would be no radar if it wasn't for the british, also you wouldn't have supersonic jets if it wasn't for the fully moving tail plane that the british invented. Oh and for your German Scientists and ours that we liberated from Germany.



Well by that thinking the British or Germans wouldnt have any fighters or any planes if not not for the Invention of two US bicycles mechanics the Wright Brothers.

The whole arguement is bunk


Exactly. If we are going to go to the origins of flight, then we can thank the US.

Personally, I think it is a dumb argument. All that matters is the here and now.

And right now, the US has the fastest plane in the world (SR-71), Stealthiest plane in the world (B-2), best operational fighter record (F-15; 101+ kils, zero losses), best 5th generation fighter (F/A-22), best maritime fighter (F-18 Superhornet)....the list goes on and on.

To even argue that the US does not have THE dominate airforce in the world is just ignorant.



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