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Why does the left believe that Fascism is on the right?

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posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:49 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
"May I point out that modern usage has shifted from "FAR right", to "not left", which is also a change of meaning."
So the left in the 21st century is communist and fascist at the same time?

I don't see how that follows from what I said.
Perhaps my comment was too succint, so I will expand it.
"You have complained that the right want to change the meaning of words.
My comment is that the left themselves are responsible for changing the meaning of the word "fascist".
It was originally applied to the FAR right, as you correctly oberved.
The current left now apply the word to anyone at all who is not on the left, which is broadening out the definition and thus changing it.
At the same time, they are taking the sense of moral opprobium which belonged to the old ["FAR right"] definition, and trying to pin it on the new ["Not left"] definition. That is where they are being dishonest.
A man should be ashamed, perhaps, of being a Fascist in the old "FAR right" sense.
There is no reason at all why anyone should be ashamed of being a "fascist" in the new "not left" sense."

I hope that is clearer.


The problem is is your stating that because someone called the conservatives fascist mean that the wording has changed, which is false, fascist will always be far right.




posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:51 PM
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a reply to: dukeofjive696969




Did you really waste your time on this



Right back at you.




What a tool .


Again, right back at you.


(post by dukeofjive696969 removed for a manners violation)

posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:54 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:55 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: dukeofjive696969




Did you really waste your time on this



Right back at you.




What a tool .


Again, right back at you.



So your dumb enough to think that fascist and commies are the same, wow i was giving you more props than i should have.



Care to quote me?


Whats the thread about, not how you feel, its about fascist and the left ?



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:57 PM
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originally posted by: Konduit
Hitler was a failed liberal arts student who self-identified as a socialist and hated the upper class. Sound familiar?

Nazism, at it's core, was nothing more then a social justice movement.



that is such B.S.......you seem to not have a grasp of history, which is now common on ATS......



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 03:59 PM
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originally posted by: dukeofjive696969

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: dukeofjive696969




Did you really waste your time on this



Right back at you.




What a tool .


Again, right back at you.



So your dumb enough to think that fascist and commies are the same, wow i was giving you more props than i should have.



Care to quote me?


Whats the thread about, not how you feel, its about fascist and the left ?



So that's a no you can't quote me saying that, cool.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: amfirst1

There were both left and right factions within Moussolini’s Fascist party. The collectivism and repudiation of individualism, symbolized by the bundle of rods, best describes the underlying beliefs. Collectivism and the repudiation of individualism is Found predominantly on the left.


Brilliant answer.

Draw a line. At one end of the line, the individual controls the individual. At the other end of the line, all individuals are controlled by the state. This is the true political spectrum.

The obvious examples still work - the guy living in his cabin in the woods, fending for himself and shooting at the revnoo men is still pretty far right. The SJWs trying to control what everyone thinks or says are still pretty far left.

The less obvious ones are more interesting. The people passing "morality" laws - bible belt anti-abortionists to use a stereotype - have always been considered right wing. The reality is that they are actually closer to centrist, or centrist left. The free love hippies into smoking dope, "sticking it to the Man", and rocking around in the ol' VW camper van? They're actually closer to the right.

Think of the line as granularity of control. The more granular the control - so the less the government is involved, the more the individual takes on their own risks and responsibilities - the more to the right they sit.

You'll also see a similar parallel with globalism/nationalism. The further to the left, the "bigger" the picture - ie, globalism. As you move to the right, globalism shrinks to nationalism. As you continue, nationalism gives way to smaller and smaller community groups, until you are down to the individual.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
The problem is is your stating that because someone called the conservatives fascist mean that the wording has changed, which is false, fascist will always be far right.

The meaning of the word is certainly changed whenever anyone uses the word as a label for someone who is merely conservative or non-left.
IN THAT SITUATION the word does not mean "far right".
Therefore IN THAT SITUATION the emotional overtones attached to the "far right" sense of the word are not appropriate, and I suspect that the word is being used in this way so that the inappropriate emotional overtones can be used dishonestly.
This broader, looser sense is not a novel or infrequent usage. I was noticing it among British students thirty years ago. "My dad's a fascist." "Yeah, my dad's a fascist too."

People can't have it both ways.
EITHER the word "fascist" means "far right", in which case it does not cover the "near right".
OR the word "fascist" means "anyone not on the left", in which case the self-righteous assumption that "fascism" is a state of unrighteousness must be abandoned.

You say that "fascism" will "always" be far right. I'm glad to hear you say so, and I hope you will (as consistency requires) renounce and get all your friends to renounce the habit of labelling people "fascist" just because they are conservative.
If you want "fascist" to mean "far right", make sure you use it that way and that way alone.


edit on 27-12-2017 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
The problem is is your stating that because someone called the conservatives fascist mean that the wording has changed, which is false, fascist will always be far right.

The meaning of the word is certainly changed whenever anyone uses the word as a label for someone who is merely conservative or non-left.
IN THAT SITUATION the word does not mean "far right".
Therefore IN THAT SITUATION the emotional overtones attached to the "far right" sense of the word are not appropriate, and I suspect that the word is being used in this way so that the inappropriate emotional overtones can be used dishonestly.

People can't have it both ways.
EITHER the word "fascist" means "far right", in which case it does not cover the "near right".
OR the word "fascist" means "anyone not on the left", in which case the self-righteous assumption that "fascism" is a state of unrighteousness must be abandoned.

This broader, looser sense is not a novel or infrequent usage. I was noticing it among British students thirty years ago. "My dad's a fascist." "Yeah, my dad's a fascist too."

You say that "fascism" will "always" be far right. I'm glad to hear you say so, and I hope you will (as consistency requires) renounce and get all your friends to renounce the habit of labelling people "fascist" just because they are conservative.
If you want "fascist" to mean "far right", make sure you use it that way and that way alone.



The issue i see is most people have no real clue how on the political spectrum parties stand, no knock on you by the way.

I see the gop has leaning right of center and the democrats leaning left of center, but both are closer center than to communism or fascism, well that's how i see it.

Oh and i can't help if people call others fascist or communist just to get a response out of others, i lean socialist and i get called a commie, i cant do anything about that bit.

Oh and thanks for the back and forth, and sorry for the terrible grammar, the whole going to french school and all.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: dukeofjive696969




Did you really waste your time on this



Right back at you.




What a tool .


Again, right back at you.



So your dumb enough to think that fascist and commies are the same, wow i was giving you more props than i should have.



Care to quote me?


Whats the thread about, not how you feel, its about fascist and the left ?



So that's a no you can't quote me saying that, cool.





Thats a no quote on you having a clue what your talking about, but thanks for taking the time to say hi and that you and op have no clue as usual.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:29 PM
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a reply to: amfirst1

It's going off of the assumption that there's a political spectrum that is exclusively left or right, or single-axis. A more accurate way to look at it would be, at least, a double-axis chart. You can take your pick:

Nolan Chart

Political Compass

Pournelle Chart



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: dfnj2015

I thought they mean this.




See their witch hunt with the FBI acting as the gestapo going papers please.



Yikes. That sounds exactly like a certain someone currently residing in the White House.




posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: jimmyx

Does this sound right wing to you?? lol it sounds like the Democrat party. Just replace Jews with Wealthy people.

NAZI's Manifesto (25 Planks)

We want all Germans to live in a "Greater Germany" [2]
We want Germany to be treated the same as other nations, and we want the peace treaties of Versailles to be cancelled.
We want land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.
Only Germans may be citizens of the Germany. Only those of the German races may be members of the nation, their religion does not matter. No Jew may be a citizen.[3]
Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.[4]
Only citizens can vote for parliament and councils, or vote on laws. Everyone who works for the German government, a state government or even a small village must be a citizen of Germany. We will stop giving people jobs because of the political party they are in, only the best people should get a job.
We think that the government's first job is to make sure every citizen has a job and enough to eat. If the government cannot do this, people who are not citizens should be made to leave Germany.
No-one who is not of a German-race should be allowed to live in Germany. We want anyone who is not of a German-race who started living in Germany after 2 August 1914 to leave the country.
All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.
Every citizen should have a job. Their work should not be selfish, but help everyone. Therefore we say
No one should live off money from rents or other income unless they have worked for that money.
So many people die or lose their property in a war, it is wrong for other people to make money from the war. Anyone who made money from the war should have all that money taken away.
We want all very big corporations to be owned by the government.
Big industrial companies should share their profits with the workers.
We want old age pensions to be paid.
We want
to create a healthy middle class
to split up big department stores, and let small traders rent space inside them
to make State and town governments try to buy from small traders.
We want to change the way land is owned. We also want
a law to take over land if the country needs it, without the government having to pay for it;
to abolish ground rent; and
to prohibit land speculation (buying land just to sell to someone else for more money).
Crimes against the common interest must be punished with death.
We want the Roman law system changed for the German common law system.
We want to change the system of schools and education, so that every hard-working German can have the chance of higher education.
What is taught should concentrate on practical things
Schools should teach civic affairs, so that children can become good citizens
If poor parent cannot afford to pay the government should pay for education.
The State must protect health standards by
protecting mothers and infants
stopping children from working
making a law for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and
supporting sports clubs for young men.
We want to get rid of the old army and replace it with a people's army that would look after the ordinary people, not just the rich officer-class
We want the law to stop politicians from being anti-German, and newspapers from writing about them. To make a German national press we demand:
that all editors of, and writers in the German language newspapers are members of the nation (of a German race);
Foreign newspapers need permission from the government. They must not be printed in the German language;
Non-Germans cannot own or control German newspapers.
any non German who does own or control a newspaper will be made to leave Germany, and the newspaper closed down,
Newspapers which criticise the country or the government are not allowed.
Art and books which support foreign ideas, should be banned.
We want to allow all religions in the State, unless they offend the moral feelings of the German race. The NSDAP is Christian, but does not belong to any denomination. The NSDAP will fight the Jewish self-interest spirit, and believes that our nation will be strongest only if everyone puts the common interest before self-interest.
We will
create a strong central government for the Reich;
give Parliament control over the entire government and its organizations;
form groups based on class and job to carry out the laws in the various German states.
The leaders of the Party promise to work—if need be to sacrifice their very lives—to put this programme into action.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: links234

I tend to favor the linear chart. It's clearly defined. Otherwise, the diamond charts would place people all over the place. www.youtube.com...



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: links234



sepetjian.files.wordpress.com...

edit on 27-12-2017 by amfirst1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:49 PM
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originally posted by: AboveBoard

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: dfnj2015

I thought they mean this.




See their witch hunt with the FBI acting as the gestapo going papers please.





Yikes. That sounds exactly like a certain someone currently residing in the White House.


Perhaps, but the quote is of questionable provenance.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: amfirst1
a reply to: jimmyx

Does this sound right wing to you?? lol it sounds like the Democrat party. Just replace Jews with Wealthy people.

NAZI's Manifesto (25 Planks)

We want all Germans to live in a "Greater Germany" [2]
We want Germany to be treated the same as other nations, and we want the peace treaties of Versailles to be cancelled.
We want land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.
Only Germans may be citizens of the Germany. Only those of the German races may be members of the nation, their religion does not matter. No Jew may be a citizen.[3]
Non-citizens may live in Germany, but there will be special laws for foreigners living in Germany.[4]
Only citizens can vote for parliament and councils, or vote on laws. Everyone who works for the German government, a state government or even a small village must be a citizen of Germany. We will stop giving people jobs because of the political party they are in, only the best people should get a job.
We think that the government's first job is to make sure every citizen has a job and enough to eat. If the government cannot do this, people who are not citizens should be made to leave Germany.
No-one who is not of a German-race should be allowed to live in Germany. We want anyone who is not of a German-race who started living in Germany after 2 August 1914 to leave the country.
All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.
Every citizen should have a job. Their work should not be selfish, but help everyone. Therefore we say
No one should live off money from rents or other income unless they have worked for that money.
So many people die or lose their property in a war, it is wrong for other people to make money from the war. Anyone who made money from the war should have all that money taken away.
We want all very big corporations to be owned by the government.
Big industrial companies should share their profits with the workers.
We want old age pensions to be paid.
We want
to create a healthy middle class
to split up big department stores, and let small traders rent space inside them
to make State and town governments try to buy from small traders.
We want to change the way land is owned. We also want
a law to take over land if the country needs it, without the government having to pay for it;
to abolish ground rent; and
to prohibit land speculation (buying land just to sell to someone else for more money).
Crimes against the common interest must be punished with death.
We want the Roman law system changed for the German common law system.
We want to change the system of schools and education, so that every hard-working German can have the chance of higher education.
What is taught should concentrate on practical things
Schools should teach civic affairs, so that children can become good citizens
If poor parent cannot afford to pay the government should pay for education.
The State must protect health standards by
protecting mothers and infants
stopping children from working
making a law for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and
supporting sports clubs for young men.
We want to get rid of the old army and replace it with a people's army that would look after the ordinary people, not just the rich officer-class
We want the law to stop politicians from being anti-German, and newspapers from writing about them. To make a German national press we demand:
that all editors of, and writers in the German language newspapers are members of the nation (of a German race);
Foreign newspapers need permission from the government. They must not be printed in the German language;
Non-Germans cannot own or control German newspapers.
any non German who does own or control a newspaper will be made to leave Germany, and the newspaper closed down,
Newspapers which criticise the country or the government are not allowed.
Art and books which support foreign ideas, should be banned.
We want to allow all religions in the State, unless they offend the moral feelings of the German race. The NSDAP is Christian, but does not belong to any denomination. The NSDAP will fight the Jewish self-interest spirit, and believes that our nation will be strongest only if everyone puts the common interest before self-interest.
We will
create a strong central government for the Reich;
give Parliament control over the entire government and its organizations;
form groups based on class and job to carry out the laws in the various German states.
The leaders of the Party promise to work—if need be to sacrifice their very lives—to put this programme into action.

Wow. That entire thing sounds like the right wing right here in America. I've always took it with a grain of salt when people call others fascists, but now I'm not so sure. Replace Jew with Muslim or liberal and it reads like some kind of Breitbart manifesto.



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:50 PM
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a reply to: underwerks

hahah so you didn't read it at all? I was just joking I got it off the DNC website. I didn't know the DNC is Breitbart now.
edit on 27-12-2017 by amfirst1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2017 @ 04:56 PM
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originally posted by: amfirst1

I find it interesting how leftists think and can cloak myself in their shoes. I just wonder sometimes if they can do the same because if they can then they would be converted. I find that there is some truth to the leftist ideas, but I think they take it too extreme which just ruins the whole concept.



I've tried but I just can't figure it out. It all seems so greedy. Money is the worst thing in the world, followed closely by inflation (IMHO of course)

One thing, if Lefties could see things from a Right Wing perspective, meaning they could be converted, why does it not work the other way?



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