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Why does the left believe that Fascism is on the right?

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posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 01:25 AM
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originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
The majority are in support of totalitarianism, just on their own terms.


A very astute observation, and one of the things that spurred me into rethinking how I saw the "left" and "right" defined.

For me, it becomes less important to consider what someone wants to achieve, and more about how they want to achieve it. The more you seek to use the power of the state to control and coerce others into meeting whatever objective you have, the further to the left you move.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is "the left" in my own paradigm, not necessarily "the left" in modern political thinking.


I agree with you that while ideas, suggested policies or systems, and beliefs matter, HOW people plan to implement those can be just as important. A leader can have potentially good ideas in a vacuum, but if that leader utilizes tyranny or other unethical means to achieve them, it can harm innocents and also create unintended long-term consequences. I actually think the real left is a good example of this, in that while fighting for justice, equality, or what have you, many of them historically were willing to use violent revolutionary means including cleansing the population of "reactionaries."

However, the right wing historically has also resorted to such tactics, including through oppression through right wing religious institutions, militaristic and dictatorial governments, and laws and policies that sought to oppress minorities or control society. A good example in the US context is the fact that often "conservatives" have sought to control people's sex lives, define marriage and relationships according to Christian dogma (for everyone), and use the power of the state to control things such as marijuana use, etc. You can call that "left," but that is a redefinition of the term.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that part of the classical definition of right wing ideology is that of obedience for authority, religious and government power, militarism, class divisions, etc. Historically it wasn't at all defined by some kind of libertarianism. In fact, most recently it was leftist hippies advocating such things, not conservatives. Meanwhile, conservatives at the time and to this day often mock people who don't conform with stereotypical religious and social norms.

Moreover, again, if we redefine all these terms, at some point discussions cease to land on a shared operational definition from which to debate.

It's been fascinating for me to watch recently conservatives try to appropriate this kind of absolute freedom idea.

I will say that there are some worrisome trends recently in liberal circles, that seem authoritarian, especially surrounding identity politics.

edit on 31-12-2017 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 01:39 AM
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a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Both parties are neoliberal.

So while both support powerful corporations it just happens politicians all own or work for corporations. Who set laws. Which could lead to fascism.

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.
edit on 31-12-2017 by PDP11 because: Too short. I forgot.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 02:42 AM
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originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.


The US constitution is the oldest constitution still in use today. It’s written on parchment.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 03:08 AM
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a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

ANTIFA are a mixed bag of groups that fight fascism. Including anarchists, communists, neoliberals and single interest members.

They employ all fascist tactics against fascists. It's a feature, not a bug. It naturally seems the same (though not.)

It looks like a duck, it quacks, but it is a pitbull.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 03:22 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Awesome. I stand corrected.👍Guard it well.
edit on 31-12-2017 by PDP11 because: Clarification



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 03:48 AM
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in germany here the antifa isnt more than a footballclub and they do not VOTE or love hillary or pedos. they even started to hate muslims. they have a feminism habbit. but just pls ask yourself why not all lefties like them. in germany you might hsave th epardy left LINKE but... no body thins real left politics can be maid at all. so bothsides as a political identity is neoliberal. m the world neoliberal is a important homework for trumpsopporter



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 03:51 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.


The US constitution is the oldest constitution still in use today. It’s written on parchment.


It was originally written on hemp paper ...

Oldest written constitution is Magna Carta dating back to 1215. Clauses 1, 9, 29 are still in use.
edit on 31-12-2017 by JanAmosComenius because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 04:07 AM
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From Marxist viewpoint there is no real difference between GOP or Dems, Labour or Conservatives, SPD or CDU. This centrist parties are in continual blowjob to corporations from banking through energy to media and MIC.

All governed by CIA ... for example here:

ATS

We are arguing about fascism on base of 70 years old realities and concepts. But we are living in brave new fascism right now.

For example way how far reaching international trade treaties are settled in total darkness without any public scrutiny? This is fascism.

Or personal revolving doors between industries and public offices supposed to keep industries in line? This is fascism.

Or industry successfully pushing law which in fact entrap large demographic group in debt. This is fascism.

FBI is GeStaPo and CIA have no comparison in human history - no "intelligence service" have had such grasp around the globe. It is state within the state, probably more powerful then state it is feeding on. What is going on in "Langley" is later somehow reflected in "WhiteHouse" etc farce.


edit on 31-12-2017 by JanAmosComenius because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-12-2017 by JanAmosComenius because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-12-2017 by JanAmosComenius because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-12-2017 by JanAmosComenius because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 05:48 AM
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originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree with you that while ideas, suggested policies or systems, and beliefs matter, HOW people plan to implement those can be just as important.

...

However, the right wing historically has also resorted to such tactics, including through oppression through right wing religious institutions, militaristic and dictatorial governments, and laws and policies that sought to oppress minorities or control society. A good example in the US context is the fact that often "conservatives" have sought to control people's sex lives, define marriage and relationships according to Christian dogma (for everyone), and use the power of the state to control things such as marijuana use, etc. You can call that "left," but that is a redefinition of the term.


This is my point.

I'm not saying that other people misinterpret the current spectrum so I'm trying to reinterpret it. I'm saying that I think there is a better spectrum to use - one based on methodology. I'm not setting out to redefine the existing spectrum, but to present an alternative. I use the terms "left" and "right" for my alternative spectrum, but I could easily use the terms "up" and "down". I use "left" and "right" because I think the two do reflect each other at on an ideological level, but not an implementation level.

The example of the "moral" right (and their obsession with using the power of the state to interfere with the individual's sex life) illustrates this very well, though I think in reality they are just substituting "the state" with "God". This puts them ideologically on the right (because things are not being done for "the state") but in implementation is puts them alongside Stalin because they are still seeking to use the power of the state to deny the individual their right to self-determination.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 05:57 AM
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originally posted by: JanAmosComenius

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.


The US constitution is the oldest constitution still in use today. It’s written on parchment.


It was originally written on hemp paper ...

Oldest written constitution is Magna Carta dating back to 1215. Clauses 1, 9, 29 are still in use.


On a point of technicality, it's not a constitutional document, it's a document that is constitutional in nature. Parliament could change it tomorrow. The only real "constitutional" principle we have is Parliamentary Supremacy - which is exactly why only some of the clauses are still in use.
edit on Ev58SundaySundayAmerica/ChicagoSun, 31 Dec 2017 05:58:21 -06005402017b by EvillerBob because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 06:57 AM
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originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: JanAmosComenius

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.


The US constitution is the oldest constitution still in use today. It’s written on parchment.


It was originally written on hemp paper ...

Oldest written constitution is Magna Carta dating back to 1215. Clauses 1, 9, 29 are still in use.


On a point of technicality, it's not a constitutional document, it's a document that is constitutional in nature. Parliament could change it tomorrow. The only real "constitutional" principle we have is Parliamentary Supremacy - which is exactly why only some of the clauses are still in use.


Absolutely, the only real inviolable restriction on parliamentary supremacy is that it can't bind it's successors. We can't have a formal constitution as any new parliament can override it's provisions.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 08:11 AM
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originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

ANTIFA are a mixed bag of groups that fight fascism. Including anarchists, communists, neoliberals and single interest members.

They employ all fascist tactics against fascists. It's a feature, not a bug. It naturally seems the same (though not.)

It looks like a duck, it quacks, but it is a pitbull.
"They employ all fascist tactics against _______." That's fascism.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: amfirst1
a reply to: Barcs

So that means that the left is anti nationalism, they believe in World Banking Government, if the far right is extremely nationalism. Glad someone finally admits they are anti American and globalist. Hey I'm just using your logic. If one thing is on the other side then the alternative has to be the opposite.


No, it doesn't mean that. It simply means that people exaggerate and pigeonhole folks with ridiculous labels.

This is why the 2 party system is terrible. You have polar opposites always fighting and disagreeing with each other. We need a four party system at least. Political views are more like a compass or spectrum. It's not just linear left vs right, but we all treat it like that because of emotional hot button issues and groups that are far left or far right, but they can indeed have a lot in common. They are generally authoritarian in both extremes.

edit on 12 31 17 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 11:08 AM
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originally posted by: JanAmosComenius

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Remember a constitution is ultimately just another piece of paper.


The US constitution is the oldest constitution still in use today. It’s written on parchment.


It was originally written on hemp paper ...

Oldest written constitution is Magna Carta dating back to 1215. Clauses 1, 9, 29 are still in use.


The UK has no constitution.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

Fascism is an ideal. Hitting someone over the head with a stick is not an ideal. It isn't fascism or any other -ism.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: airowineSailorcat

How big are other antifascists in Germany?



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

What's the difference? Wanting to form a fascist government vs. preventing one from forming. They are not a political party of any particular sort. Both sides are criminals for example. If you consider a Nazi to be a criminal. Nazis want to form a government though.



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 01:10 PM
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a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

The CIA was created by the CFR, and the CFR was created and bankrolled into existence by the Rockefellers a known democrat bankroller and globalists family. In fact, most globalists institutions are created by leftists, including the Central Banking system a la Democrat Woodrow Wilson. And the reason why the globalists tend to align with leftists is that their belief in International Socialism hello communism, it works great in a globalists system with a central banking system to control all nations. At the turn of the 19th century, the elites realized that colonialism was a difficult task so they came up with Internationalism as a stealth means to take over countries by merging the Intelligence agencies with the Financial Elites, which outcome is globalism and the emergence of markets which the Central Banks will control. This is found in the achieves during FDR tenure another Democrat. Don't get me wrong, I don't like a lot of the Republicans too, but the Democrats really pave the way to screw us all and it is not going to easy and nearly impossible to fix a screwed up system we have that has been co-opted for a long time.
edit on 31-12-2017 by amfirst1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2017 @ 05:15 PM
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I learned in Political Science and History that Fascism is a phenomenon of the left.


That's not what Political Science and History teach.



for some weird reason the leftists and their institutions have convinced people that Fasicism is right wing.


Because it is right wing. Liberals don't use militaries and conservative business fortunes to take away peoples' rights and force dictatorships on them- that's what conservatives do.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: PDP11
a reply to: airowineSailorcat

How big are other antifascists in Germany?


like a footballclub. there are mostly on protest but mostly sorrounding a certain area in the city where they try to access multiculturism

other smashing shops and blocking streets. argent provocateurs from the cops . the usal thing but .....

the dont even would in anyway -... drive in a isis camp in the middleeast. germsan people arent in anyway ready for the east. the is a lot # told to trump sopporters. and antifa shirts in walmart...
antifas here would try to cause choas in such shops. nobody in ger would sell those tshirts. you get those by those organsions . but the ceratin infowar on the net all this is anyway normal
edit on 1-1-2018 by airowineSailorcat because: (no reason given)




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