How big will the counter-revolution to Trump be???

Thats like asking how soon will the gubment impeach itself?

neva

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

How big will the counter-revolution to Trump be???

About as big as an atom.

a reply to: JoshuaCox


The civil war was not about slavery.

If the South would've won, it would be known as "the second American revolution."

Confederates were fighting for state's rights and against big government. Slavery was only a small part of that, and in the context of SR/voluntary union vs. Lincoln's indivisible union.

That said, I don't regret the Union's victory. War was unneeded though. The South would've never been able to sustain itself, and would have collapsed in a few short years. But, much like Hiroshima/Nagasaki, sometimes military decisions are made for the purpose of demonstrating a point/making a statement more so than accomplishing some strategic goal. No love lost for the insurrectionists, that is for sure.

a reply to: JoshuaCox


JC, you really believe the Tea Party had to do with Obama (and his skin color)? Would it surprise you to know that a lot of Tea-baggers (myself include) voted for Obama, in his first term? It was only after he revealed himself to be an actual wall-street/establishment puppet that I revoked my support.

That is another revolution you forgot, the occupy movement. Despite their rhetoric, the occupy movement targeted wallstreet and other banksters. What happened with that? Well, Obama's DOJ targeted the "protesters" while Obama himself bailed out/propped up the banksters/banking cartels. Obama deserved every last ounce of BS he got.

The Tea Party targeted Republicans in primary races, who served the establishment/government and not the Citizens of this country. The Tea Party (much like its older brother, circa ~1770s) exists to herald a smaller government, deconstruct government overreach, restore the Constitution, restore rule of law and restore faith in public institutions.

That is why we elected Trump, ignoring his faults, because we believe he can deliver on that vision. Besides, some of us (myself included) were even willing to give that old socialist Bernie Sanders a shot - because *change* -any true change- was preferred to the SOS/tired-worn-out rhetoric of the Obama/Bush/Clinton/Bush saga.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Oh absolutely...


It wasn’t even hidden...

For every teapartier it wasn’t about the “black” but for plenty it was..

I specifically remember the conversations like “Is America ready?” FROM THE LEFT AND MIDDLE..

The rightwing media/Gop literally pretended like a very moderate/corporate democrat was a secret Muslim Plante, socialist from Kenya who was actively trying to destroy America.. while he was definitely making it ok for him to run for multiple terms and most likely was the antichrist..

Lmao..


It was only 9 years ago..

We aren’t talking Ancient history here...



The GOP elites were scared by obama because he won like a celebrity , by a mile..

But the average joe rank and file..

I heard “I’ll never vote for that “'n-word'” so many times in that time period.. and I was in Kansas City at the time, not in MS where I grew up and presently live.


Both places are VERY deep red with particularly racial histories, so I’m always open to a chunk of my experiences being regional.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Trump would have been farther left than hillary IF he wasn’t surrounded by the few hard right commentators who were willing to support him early..

However , instead he is surrounded by rightwing shills and conspiracy theorists.

a reply to: JBurns

Tea baggers voted for Obama? But I thought they were against Obamacare? That’s why I voted for him.

a reply to: BlueJacket

Whatever....I mean I agree in a POV sense completely... the The Fox News types manufactured a masterful propaganda empire that convienced people everything from him being the antichrist to a Muslim Plante from Kenya..

None of it was real... but lots of people bought it..

Well why did the same people who said “America wasn’t ready for a black president”, buy all those insane conspiracy theories???

Hmmmm...





We were just exiting an era where bush/Cheney lied us into the Iraq war, then gave his personal company the multi billion dollar rebuild contract....


There is nothing that obama/dems did to even remotely match that.. nothing even remotely close..

I'd guess by saying "poloitical assassination" by any means possible and obstructionism for obstructions has only reached the end of the beginning with Trump, his compatriots and his opposition. The door has been flung wide open now.

If we thought civil discourse was bad under Bush, Obama and now even Trump... I hate to see what it's going to be like when the next guy/girl is President.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Trump would have been farther left than hillary IF he wasn’t surrounded by the few hard right commentators who were willing to support him early..

I'm not convinced, I reckon Trump has paid for more abortions than Hillary.

Not more than Bill tho.

The problem was progressivism.

The reason Trump was elected in the first place should tell you that you are already in your counter-revolution - aimed at saving the world from progressives.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I don't think it really matters. The majority of people didn't vote for Trump last time and it didn't matter, so why would next time be any different? Voters in America have no power, only an illusion of it.

The real deep state got who they wanted in office, along with followers that will believe anything as long as it conforms to what they want to believe. All you have to do is log into 4chan, make vague Nostradamus style predictions that can be applied to anything, and Trumpers will relish not having to think and count themselves lucky they're being spoon fed what to believe.

Thinking can be scary. And these people have adopted fear to the point they will put their own imagined security over the cause of freedom every chance they get. The future is now, and the water is getting warmer in the pot while all the frogs croak like they're on a tropical vacation.

My advice? Move to New Zealand with the rich Republican strategists who are buying parcels of land right now because of what they see happening in our government.

The important thing to remember is that Confederate soldiers were still American Citizens, and their loss should be remembered by all Americans. Just as the victims of slavery should be remembered by all Americans.

Each component is a part of our past that has made us the nation we are today. No one in this country claims our civilization has been right about every single thing it has done - no civilization is always right. But our collective past, and the changes we've all witnessed prove that we can do better. We can always do better. In fact always striving to do our best and be the best is what makes America exceptional.

a reply to: JoshuaCox


How is the BS rhetoric against Obama any different than the BS rhetoric against Trump?

Despite the fact that Obama was a corporate/crony stooge, you're right that he wasn't a communist/Kenyan/gun-grabber/etc. I will not dispute that we overreacted to Obama. The birther bull# is shameful. But no one tried to bring criminal charges against him over mere allegations - we knew better.

He *was* involved in a lot of untoward dealings, and took a lot of action that we consider objectionable/questionable - including stuff just coming to light in recent days. That said, the rhetoric against him was wrong and he turned out to be a moderate/centrist albeit pro Wall street establishmentarian.

I heard “I’ll never vote for that “'n-word'” so many times in that time period.. and I was in Kansas City at the time, not in MS where I grew up and presently live.


Both places are VERY deep red with particularly racial histories, so I’m always open to a chunk of my experiences being regional.

True, and that is (unfortunately) the backwards a-hole cousins of our party. Are you telling me the Democratic party doesn't have people like that? Who say sick/disgusting/reprehensible things you totally disagree with? Racist morons are no more "allies" to me than they are to you. I want what is best for this country, and ALL of its Citizens.

There is so much Obama could've done, including for the POC community. What did he do, instead? Like Bill Clinton, he promoted a failed war on drugs, failed anti-gun legislation and supported laws that disproportionately incarcerate black men. We need to stop using the legal system to take black men out of their kids' lives, over non-violent victimless offenses. Where was Obama when this dreadful practice was skyrocketing under his Admin?

FFS, a lot of us voted for Obama in his first time. I'll be the first to admit, I was excited by his first campaign speech and the promises he made. He basically wrote the cause of Constitutional rights and civil rights a blank check. So what happened? Where did that can-do Obama spirit go? Where were his campaign promises, especially after the first term?

If he would've kept half the promises he made to the American people, he would've been a historic winner as POTUS. Now he's just "so-so" with a lot of unscrupulous things coming out in recent days.

a reply to: underwerks

Thinking can be scary. And these people have adopted fear to the point they will put their own imagined security over the cause of freedom every chance they get.

You mean like the hysterical left's call for gun control/"assault rifle" bans? How is that any different than what you're saying here?

Imagined security over the cause of freedom, eh? Do you know how low our murder rate actually is? ~5/100,000. Only about half of those murders are even committed using a firearm, while less than 1% involve so-called "assault" weapons. Who is imagining things? Who is crafting bogus arguments to further their own agenda/engage in culture war?

If Dems were truly interested in saving lives, they'd focus on fast food/smoking/drinking/driving/cancer/heart disease LONG before firearms even crossed their minds.

..and if your post was in reference to the insane level of "anti-terrorism" measures, then I agree entirely. They're a huge waste of money, and needlessly limit personal freedom. I'm willing to risk future terrorist attacks to uphold personal liberties and freedom. Just as I'm willing to risk future potential violence for the second amendment.

a reply to: JBurns

Please..

That is the oldest most considtantly debunked assertion in American history.. it is laughed at by ALL historians because it didn’t happen 1,000 years ago.. we still have all the paperwork.. I got to meet southern historian Shelby Foote the star of Ken Burn’s famous civil war documentary , and he was very pro-confederacy and have no problem acknowledging it was over slavery..

The political parties of the day were not counted in “liberals and conservatives”.. they were counted by “free and slave states.


The whole “war of aggression” stuff is laughable to ANYONE with any knowledge of the period..

The free states CONSTANTLY bent over backwards to appese the slave states. .. Hell they even agreed to giving them 3/5 legislative representation for all the slaves they weren’t allowing to vote..


Which was THE ONLY piece of property that counted toward their congressional representation.


A) the slave states had held a congressional, senatorial, Presidental AND Supreme Court majority for decades..

The south rebelled BEFORE the (brand new party) republicans took power or Lincoln was inaugurated. AKA before any republican policies could even be considered.

B) the south fired first.. repeatedly..


C) Everyone of authority, in the confederacy made no qualms about the fact they were fighting to protect slavery and white supremacy.

White supremacy was considered a scientific fact and was universal in America and in the confederacy..

Every single succession document says EXACTLY that..

D) the confederacy didn’t allow succession in their constitution either.. their new constitution because they trash canned the US constitution.


The war wasn’t fought over anything that had already happened.. it was fought over demogouge scare tactics over what potentially COULD HAPPEN LATER since the slave states had lost the presidency and potentially the legislative majority, of Lincoln stopped the western states from being slave states...


The south rebelled mainly due to a small group of southern planters and politicians who were demagogues. They had plans to restart the import of slaves from Africa in a plan to buy them cheap there and sell them high in the new western states as they joined the union..

The John Brown raid split the democrat party on the eve of Lincoln’s election . Leading to him winning when he shouldn’t have and the republicans gaining power.

The southern “fire eaters” went home and hyped everyone up to suscede because “they are gonna come free all the slaves and make your daughters marry them.”

The “lost cause” treatment was how the south and US government reconciled. No one was wrong , no one was right. It was all for the best..


None of that is in question nor up for debate.. none of that is subjective..

I was raised in Vicksburg, MS and have spent THOUSANDS of hours researching the civil war, and started with the view it was over taxes..


Well it wasn’t..



It was EXACTLY the equivalent as if the south rebelled the second obama was elected because they believed “he was coming to get your guns”, even though no elected democrat has ever supported a gun ban and confiscation...even though obama swore up and down he had no desire to repeal the second amendment and ban all the guns..

The way I saw it following it after the election, and still see it today, is that unless Congress starts actually doing their job we're going to see a grassroots Tea Party-esque movement on the Left. And much like the Tea Party movement this will allow the Left to take back a lot of seats in Congress.

So far it seems like this is already happening. Here in Virginia we just elected an openly transgender woman, a self-professed Democratic Socialist, and our first Latinas to office. The Democrats ended up picking up a record number of seats and may take control of the House of Delegates depending on a coin flip (one of the Democrats won his election by a single vote.)

From there what happens depends on 2020. If Trump loses it will probably be to a moderate, establishment Democrat. If Trump wins in 2020 then we'll probably see the Dems pivot more to the Left and run a Sanders-style Leftist in 2024.

a reply to: JBurns

You mean the totally crazily invasive “assault rifle ban” that only bans the NEW sale of assault rifles and grandfathers in the millions already in circulation keeping them perfectly legal..

The horror...

That said I agree completely assaultrifles are by any measure the smallest part of any “gun problem” we have..

That said again lol, they have no functional value in our society..

A handgun/shotgun/rifle is almost always more efficient in any real life situation one is likely to encounter..


Unless someone is attacked by 6 armed people who’s primary goal is trying to kill you.. AKA a fictional situation that means you probably have a problem no one gun is going to fix lol..


No one wants to do a real ban on all the guns on either side..

There is no Law Enforcement/Military Body willing to implement it..


It would be political suicide to even suggest it..

It would definitely cause a second Civil War, except no one would fight on the confiscation side.. we would have to invent some fictional Storm troopers to even have an opposing team..

It is the biggest “non issue” in American politics.. yet it is the primary concern for millions of people...

The only reason their is even any debate concerning a total ban is because the conversation gets dragged there and the logic behind a lot of the pro gun arguments are logically ridiculous..

So the logic gets argued, not the reality of actually trying to do it..

a reply to: JoshuaCox


JC, I never claimed it was any kind of "war of aggression." Although I do admit I feel the same result would've been achieved without millions of Americans being slaughtered in warfare. The South had no infrastructure, and no means to sustain themselves in the long run.

That is the oldest most considtantly debunked assertion in American history.. it is laughed at by ALL historians because it didn’t happen 1,000 years ago.. we still have all the paperwork.. I got to meet southern historian Shelby Foote the star of Ken Burn’s famous civil war documentary , and he was very pro-confederacy and have no problem acknowledging it was over slavery..

Slavery was an issue, but it wasn't the only issue. How do you rectify the issues with state's rights and taxation? Picturing the civil war through the single lens of slavery only reveals a partial picture.

That is interesting that you were able to meet with K. Burns though, I am sure it was insightful and fascinating (despite his antiquated views on the matter).

The political parties of the day were not counted in “liberals and conservatives”.. they were counted by “free and slave states.

Agree, political parties will be the death of this country (one day). Nothing wrong with the "Democratic-Republican party" if you ask me.

The whole “war of aggression” stuff is laughable to ANYONE with any knowledge of the period..

Agree, I never said it was a war of aggression though. Clearly the first shots were fired by the Confederates, in their victory at Ft. Sumter.

The free states CONSTANTLY bent over backwards to appese the slave states. .. Hell they even agreed to giving them 3/5 legislative representation for all the slaves they weren’t allowing to vote..


Which was THE ONLY piece of property that counted toward their congressional representation.

No doubt, which was a mistake IMO. Appeasement wasn't the answer and it never is. Was a war that killed millions of Americans the answer? Perhaps not. But nevertheless it is what happened, and we won. Like I said, no love lost for insurrectionists. I do mourn the deaths of our American brothers, though.

The fact any living person was considered "property" is outrageous. I also do not dispute that.

A) the slave states had held a congressional, senatorial, Presidental AND Supreme Court majority for decades..

True

B) the south fired first.. repeatedly..

Also true. The type of warfare they engaged in was really surprising to our armies. However, they still surrendored. Lincoln/Grant got their "USS Missouri moment" and reunified the country. I don't believe war was the only way to achieve this end, but it worked out so in retrospect apparently it was the right choice.

C) Everyone of authority, in the confederacy made no qualms about the fact they were fighting to protect slavery and white supremacy.

White supremacy was considered a scientific fact and was universal in America and in the confederacy..

Well, I assume that is why we are generally more intelligent/enlightened in 2017 than the 19th century.

And science has come quite a long way since that time. I don't think you'll meet anyone serious that claims any race's supremacy. Maybe a few morons here and there, but in general people know better.

D) the confederacy didn’t allow succession in their constitution either.. their new constitution because they trash canned the US constitution.

I'm sure they did. Most tyrannical thugs aim to discard the Constitution, because it stands in the way of their power-grab or other unacceptable actions.

The war wasn’t fought over anything that had already happened.. it was fought over demogouge scare tactics over what potentially COULD HAPPEN LATER since the slave states had lost the presidency and potentially the legislative majority, of Lincoln stopped the western states from being slave states...


The south rebelled mainly due to a small group of southern planters and politicians who were demagogues. They had plans to restart the import of slaves from Africa in a plan to buy them cheap there and sell them high in the new western states as they joined the union..

That is interesting, and makes sense. Granted I had never done an extreme amount of research into the period leading up to the war. So I will have to take your word for that, although I have no reason to doubt what you say.

The John Brown raid split the democrat party on the eve of Lincoln’s election . Leading to him winning when he shouldn’t have and the republicans gaining power.

The southern “fire eaters” went home and hyped everyone up to suscede because “they are gonna come free all the slaves and make your daughters marry them.”

The “lost cause” treatment was how the south and US government reconciled. No one was wrong , no one was right. It was all for the best..


None of that is in question nor up for debate.. none of that is subjective..

I was raised in Vicksburg, MS and have spent THOUSANDS of hours researching the civil war, and started with the view it was over taxes..


Well it wasn’t..

That is very interesting, no doubt that hysteria and racism were major contributors. Admittedly, I have spent 10's of hours researching the topic (far from thousands) so I do not/can not dispute the above. I will say that I too always believed it was over taxation, so it is something I will certainly be looking into further

It was EXACTLY the equivalent as if the south rebelled the second obama was elected because they believed “he was coming to get your guns”, even though no elected democrat has ever supported a gun ban and confiscation...even though obama swore up and down he had no desire to repeal the second amendment and ban all the guns..

I agree. Our treatment of Obama was largely based on the same "what-if" scare tactics about what potentially *could happen* in the future. And it was despicable. I'll be the first to admit that many of the attacks on Obama were bull# scare tactics. That said, there are a lot of legitimate criticisms of Obama and his policies. The birther crap and fear mongering were not part of those legitimate gripes.

Some of the stuff that has come out is also disturbing, but he was far from the strawman many created/believed.

The left doesn't seem to be able to think on their own, they need anti Americans like Soros and Obama to do the thinking for them. A revolution would end quickly because the left would end up shooting themselves in the foot.a reply to: JoshuaCox