Our Debt Doesn't Exist

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: neutronflux
Tell that to the countries that we barrow money from........

The bulk of our debt is owed to ourselves, not foreign countries.

Owed to the public is not the same as ourselves. With over 5 trillion owed to foreign interests.

The money borrowed is by lenders seeking profit by interest....

Bottom line, individuals and other governments have to be willing to loan the US money.

Or you referring to the money borrowed from social security that should never have been part of the General fund?

en.m.wikipedia.org...

On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross national debt of $19.8 trillion or about 106% of the previous 12 months of GDP;[7] $6.2 trillion or approximately 45% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were Japan and China at about $1.09 trillion for Japan and $1.06 trillion for China as of December 2016.[9]

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Jacques Fresco's dream of a resource based economy. The main hurdle in the Venus Project.

www.thevenusproject.com...

a reply to: neutronflux

So almost three quarters of the debt is either hejd by the federal government or by US citizens. That certainly seems like the bulk.

Would you feel better if the social security fund held dollars rather than treasury bonds?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: neutronflux

Show almost three quarters of the debt is either hejd by the federal government or by US citizens. That certainly seems like the bulk.

Would you feel better if the social security fund held dollars rather than treasury bonds?

You do understand that the debt held by citizens is to be paid back with interest.

And if the USA starts defaulting, there is no reason to leand the US money. Is that a false statement.

If it’s foreign or prive citizens, the money is promised to be paid back. Is that a false statement.

To say the debt is held by “us” is not really an intellectually honest statement. Is that false.

If the US ignored its obligation to pay back borrowed money. It would result in an economic disaster. International lawsuits. And sanctions. And trade restrictions. Are those false statements.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Flooz.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Realtruth

What Greenspan doesn't say it that short clip is that printing money leads to inflation , an inconvenience for governments as the people that put them in power feel the pain , just printing money is not an option.

Money is far from a Red Herring it is the glue that holds society together.

Except that we have a number of ways to export inflation to other countries.
The petrodollar is the number one way we have done that traditionally.
Imagine if Venezuela, rich in oil, could have exported their inflation abroad with their bolivar via money printing.

If we were an isolated country, not utilizing slave labor overseas, endless wars and the petrodollar to pay for it, the rich elite would be in worse shape.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Realtruth


Since I'm not watching close to 3 hours worth of video what is the option instead of money?

If we go back to bartering it might be a way to reset the system so true value is found again.
There would be no 300,000 dollar medical expenses where the insurance industry and wall street want a cut of your money.

a reply to: neutronflux

Your post is based on the US defaulting. Why would it choose to do that?

It's not not a dishonest statement to say most the debt is held by the US when 3/4 of it is.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: bulwarkz
funny, because i do have money management problems from past mistakes.

So because you're irresponsible the rest of us need to alter our system of currency?

...like your home (notice how you replace your need for my skills for the "absolute" need for a loan from a bank) and your clothing and most importantly your food. You choose to go through the bank for all those privilages that used to and still rightfully belong with us, the producers. I'm a carpenter by trade, a real good one. I run huge crews using force multipliers.

That's nice. I don't have the time or inclination to build my own home. I'd rather borrow the money at minimal interest, repay it at my leisure and use the remainder for investment purposes. If it were't for banks loaning people money to acquire real estate your industry wouldn't be nearly as profitable.

Well, at least you admit banks inflate the cost of homes.
The money the carpenter makes from it is not the intended beneficiary from it, it is an unintended side effect.
It is not much different when corporations were lobbying all the time for tariffs and the workers benefited as a side effect.
Now that corporations have gone global, tariffs is a dirty word.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: neutronflux

Your post is based on the US defaulting. Why would it choose to do that?

It's not not a dishonest statement to say most the debt is held by the US when 3/4 of it is.

Then the debt is obligated to be paid back. Then the title of this thread is not correct. “Our debt doesn’t exist.”

If the debt doesn’t exist, the you cannot default with foreign and private lenders.

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: neutronflux

Your post is based on the US defaulting. Why would it choose to do that?

It's not not a dishonest statement to say most the debt is held by the US when 3/4 of it is.

That debt is obligated to be paid back. The the title of this thread is not correct. “Our debt doesn’t exist.”

If the debt doesn’t exist, the you cannot default with foreign and private leaders....,

Not my thread and not my argument.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: purplemer
Chadders babe. Be imaginative. Think of something different. Stop supporting a failed system.

What do you replace it with?

The poster is right in that the producers and workers make this country work and the renter class only take from others.
Making money from money like in the financial sector is an abomination that would not exist in a barter system.

The ones that usually defend it are the ones that are heavily invested in the stock market and have a lot to lose if we did away with it.

a reply to: ScepticScot

That was the only thing I was arguing against was the USA debt is imaginary? I would think one would say the USA is obligated to pay back its debt, and that makes the debt real. And defaulting would have an impact on our standing and economy.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

That was the only thing I was arguing against was the USA debt is imaginary? I would think one would say the USA is obligated to pay back its debt, and that makes the debt real. And defaulting would have an impact on our standing and economy.

The debt is very really. It's just not much of an issue. The US is perfectly capable of meeting it's financial obligations.

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: Realtruth

Meh, go back to a time when there was no money then.

Barter your potatoes for brain surgery, see how that goes.

No holidays either.

Work sun up to sun down till you die.

It may not be a perfect system, and it has made us lazy...but I’d rather that than work and fight every waking minute just to survive.

There are some of us fighting to survive everyday. Not fun. Glad you got yours. The rest of us are barely making it.

a reply to: neutronflux

You all are making this way too complicated. While our net debt is high. As a percentage of GDP, the U.S. is not significantly different than most other industrialized countries globally. Its ~88% of GDP. France and the UK are both slightly lower. Germany is even 60%.

At a simplified level in the U.S., 2/3 of the spending is Social Security and Health Care, interest expense is 6% and the remaining 28% is 50% military or 14% and the remaining 14% is a bunch of various stuff, education, embassy, research, education etc. The deficit annually is around 4% of GDP.

First, the U.S. government is not going to default. Second, if it wants to print more money to eliminate the deficit it can do that. Third, if the U.S. wanted to reduce its military spending it could eliminate the deficit.

Because the total deficit is not out of line with the rest of the world, we are not viewed as a huge risk. Regarding printing money and causing inflation. Well, a lot of the deficit arises from keeping old people alive. I am about to be one of them. The inflation related to old people is in the cost of health care, food and housing. The inflation related to these items already exists within the prices because the demand is already there. Printing money to reduce that deficit isn't going to change inflation too much. Its all relative and there isn't that much too worry about.

It becomes a problem when the U.S. is not in line with everyone else. The tax reform just passed ultimately is not a great idea as it adds pressure. But, these things tend to sort themselves out.

originally posted by: Realtruth

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: elementalgrove
Cryptocurrency!!!

Still money.

What is your point? lol

The thread is about the deception of our national debt, and current fiat system. Some type of exchange will always exist, but the current one in place only benefits an elite cartel.

We do have a choice not to buy into personal debt, which is a prudent choice, however the illusions of national debt is a myth.

Again to answer your question some type of money will exist, what type? Who knows, however the current system is corrupt.

The Greeks keep saying it and no one is buying that national debt isn't real.

True we have a must win for the Fed type of system. I am sure it was logical to make them be profitable and to not have the US Treasury be responsible for keeping the Dollar worth believing in trading to other currency. Now what we have is the Fed has members who have gamed the system. Time for a new one and Crypto currency would make it so no new debt was created to create the currency as it is now.

Both systems, printed and crypto currencies, would be creating it out of thin air and documenting the number of new ones. One way creates more debt and may need to go the way of the T Rex's. I guess that means I am now for crypto...

a reply to: neutronflux

We can print more money and pay the debtors.

a reply to: thepixelpusher

Really?

Like proper fighting to survive?

You have to hunt your own food, grow your own food?

What you think is a fight, isn’t the fight I’m talking about.

I’m sorry to hear that you’re barely making it, but why are you having a go at me for what I said?

That is bs. You do not have to do everything. That is crazy fear.

What you fear is having to rely upon your skillsets to be able to fit in with your neighbors and bond as a community. It is local communities that do all this now, and it will be then.
It is just proper credit is given. Not pretending the federal government does it. It has always been us. But we allowed government to take credit for all we do as people. But through a crisis we always get ops to bond and we get to see who really cares about us.

Government is meant to be servant. Not master!

Everything is backwards, upside down