The most evil verse in the Bible Peter 2 18 how can this even exist

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Raggedyman

I’ll remember this argument the next abortion debate. I actually agree with it. But you are as a Christian commanded to be a light to the world. Different from atheists and other religions.

If a woman chooses an abortion, it's not for me to condemn, it's her choice

Yes Christians are called to be the light, we are not, sad isn't it

My sister we are to reprove one another....

Luke 17:2- 4 - It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3.Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4.Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”…

Definition of reprove

reproved; reproving

1 : to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
2 : to express disapproval of......

If I see a sin, I make it known to the sinner as I expect others to do to me. This is how we stick together...through thick and thin we are family.... a spiritual family and I do NOT want to see any brother or sister heading to hell due to living in sin. If it takes a hug, a stern scolding, or tears I don't care as long as my brother or sister sees the error and returns back to the fold.

Revelation 3:19 - Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

And who is Jesus addressing in the sermon?
Are you denying Gods gift of free will

I am against abortion, no question, I would warn against it, but it's not for me to deny another's free will

And how would you have me stop a person, force, violence

Deathslayer, that's just you forcing your views on others, you don't have that right
If you do, show me in scripture please

a reply to: dfnj2015

Its putting the judgement and stress of it on god's altar, we are not to judge if someone hurts us.

We are not to presume someones atonement of sin to god is true or not, its a personal relationship.

We are to forgive 7 times 70 and all that as symbolic of forever. You dont have to sit there like a punk and get slapped over and over, you forgive. That doesnt mean you stay for the abuse hoping it will change

This verse was used a lot during American slave times to justify African enslavement. The verse is clear and not some metaphor. People just have to get out of the fantasy that the Bible is some infallible book.

It's silly how many believers will stretch this verse and others to fit in their own bias beliefs on what these violent verses mean. This happens in many religious books and people just can't come to grips that their holy papers is nothing more than ancient writings by flawed men.

a reply to: dfnj2015

You are aware that Jesus Himself died willingly died for crimes He never committed, right?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: szino9
a reply to: dfnj2015

I wonder when will they start calling the bible 'racist'...

The Bible calls out and supports quite a bit of ethnic cleansing in the name of God. Especially in the OT. I wouldn't call it racist, but your sarcasm isn't exactly far off enough to make your joke funny.

If god was a person, he'd be on the level of Hitler's. But he's a god so everything he says and does in the Bible is completely fair and justified. The horrors that come when you can't ever question your leader...

a reply to: dfnj2015

There was a missing link in our family history somewhere from England to America. We finally found out our ggg grandfather was kidnapped, and sold as a slave in America. He was Irish! That sure seems to be a forgotten here, yes white folks were slaves too.

a reply to: dfnj2015

You need to look at the Greek. It's referring to workers in general not just slaves. It's telling workers to be honorable with their employers.

Jaden

dfnj2015 ....above is an excellent proposition for your examination.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I do agree with your sentiment. Yet, I have to disagree with a few notions in your post.

when dating a young girl "no" always means "no".

That is in the bible. As a matter of fact: Matthew 5:37 says to let your yes be yes and no be no. The letter written by James also reiterates this principle. It simply means what it says.

My point is not about sex but about what is sin and what is not sin changes over time.

It depends on your definition of sin. If it is missing the mark, than morality has nothing to do with it. There is a rule, you either make the grade or not. It also means that people whining about doing their best and missing the mark, not making the grade, are simply "sinners"

From a biblical perspective, the sin is missing the mark of being perfect.

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

This particular piece, attributed to St Peter, is also found in a letter attributed to Paul: Colossians chapter 3.
There is nothing in the gospel to support this notion. As a matter of fact, elsewhere St Paul says, I belief it is Corinthians, to find ways to become free from slavery, but if that is not possible, than remain as you were.

The backdrop of course is the Roman Empire being high on slavery. The economy needed slaves. It also pertained to the security of the Roman Citizens. What would the world come to if slaves were to Rebel?
The Spartacus slave uprising was not directly geared towards the institution of slavery as such, yet, has a few very alarming issues: the militia's dispatched to capture the run away slaves were defeated. And even Craccus was not capable of routing them. So, enter Pompi. And if the Spartacus rebellion is any indication, as 6.000 slaves were crucified along the via Appia, it was not wise to, on top of being a very unpopular Christian, also be a rebellious slave.

Also, connect it with the letter to the Romans in which Paul argues that the current government is put in place by God and carries a sword to punish the evil ones.

So, basically, the idea is that is not so much condones slavery, as well as counsels on not perverting the status quo. It is therefore political advice .... packaged as a religious admonition: to suffer injustice for righteousness sake.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Evil is always where you least expect it.

Here is the verse in the King James Edition,

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. -- KJV, 1 Peter 2:18

So, it's a bit different tone. Depends on the translation you read.

The basic idea, is however, the same.

We are all "slaves" to our "passions" our "lusts" etc..but how can we be made aware of that idea, so that we can become conscious of it, and contemplate the state of our own personal condition?

First, we need to externalize the idea and make it more "objective", raising it out of the murky fuzzy world of "subjective" ideas, so that it becomes concrete and meaningful to men.

Hence, the introduction of "slavery" as we know it. Where one man --the slave-- gives all the fruit of his labor to another man--the master-- getting nothing in return. The idea of working for someone else's "will", rather than doing your own "will", objectifies the concept, so that it becomes a real and meaningful experience in the lives of men.

Now that you have understood, the concept of "slave", "servant", "master", etc..we can abolish slavery and eventually abolish servants also---[i.e. everything becomes self-serve, with robots etc...each man under his own vine..etc. KJV, Micah 4:4 ]--then we can go back to contemplating our own internal condition. We can "grasp" the concept of the individual being a "slave" to his "emotions" and "desires"..etc..and then we can fully understand the next verse in the scriptures:

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. -- KJV, 2 Timothy 2:22

Because, we have now "grown up" and become an "adult"...after a few centuries of experiential training introducing the relevant "language concepts" that make us able to comprehend the scriptures better...

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. -- KJV, 1 Corinthians 13:11

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. -- KJV, 1 Corinthians 13:12

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. -- KJV, 1 Corinthians 13:13

Now you get to ask the question:

What is the essential difference between the "slave" who gives away all the fruit of his labor to his master, for his master's benefit, and not his own,

verses,

the "free man" who gives away all the fruit of his labor as "charity" to others, keeping nothing for himself?

Both the "slave" and the "free man" do exactly the same action, giving away all that they have, but the slave does it unwillingly, grumbling in his heart, and the free man does it with peace and joy in his heart.

That's why the bible says the "slave" or "servant" should "learn" to do these things willingly, so that when they become "free men" they would have learnt what "charity" is, and can conduct themselves as righteous men.

That's it, basically, in brief.

Now where is the evil?

"I have a bees nest in the bottom of my garden that I put there but they are starting to annoy me. So in order to kill them I will use DDT which will also destroy every other living animal in my garden - save a handful. I could easily kill just the bees as I am all powerful but no - lets kill all the other animals in the garden."

My above description is a modern take on the Noah story which is pretty evil. And will carry with it a disregard for other living animals in the name of religion for thousands of years.

originally posted by: templar knight
- lets kill all the other animals in the garden."

But, did you put all the other animals in the garden there also?

I'd think you could say it's evil to destroy another's work, but if it's all your own creation, and you decide to undo all of it, how can that be evil?

There is context to everything, and when you quote a single verse, you risk taking it out of that context.

2 Peter 2: 13-21

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

When reading the verse in context, it becomes clear who and what kind of slaves we are talking about -- Christians who are slaves to God's will, not necessarily actual slaves owned by human masters although they can be Christians just as well as anyone else can.

a reply to: dfnj2015

This has got to be the most evil and immoral verse in the Bible. How can the Bible be so wrong on slavery it were not written by men.

Peter's letter was meant to be read by the disciples of Jesus and not to the world of disbelievers. In all reality you have not considered that most all slavery practiced by disciples of Christ were people who had sold their labor and skills as indentured slaves. Much of this were young boys who wanted schooling and found a master who would pay their tuition for their skills of both labor or other such things such as scribes or caretakers of property. Then you have not addressed the fact of the Jubilee when all debts were forgiven by the masters of properties and slaves. That is more humane than we have today.

There are people by the millions in all of the advanced nations who are indentured slaves as a an employee to their masters and never consider that as being a slave. But actually it is. You can pay for a house for thirty years and you will never really own it or the property that it sits on. You will always be indebted to a master for either rent or taxes and if you don't pay then you don't stay. And you also do not have a jubilee to fall back on. Does that sound like it is better or worse than the biblical people to you?

You can work and become a multi millionaire and your children will pay a huge death tax on the money that was already taxed in becoming a millionaire. Most all people in this world today will never be free of debt and will always be indebted to masters and the masters themselves will experience the same to their masters. It is an unbroken circle till you die. Slavery is a natural and needful tool till the world becomes a first class civilization.

originally posted by: templar knight
"I have a bees nest in the bottom of my garden that I put there but they are starting to annoy me. So in order to kill them I will use DDT which will also destroy every other living animal in my garden - save a handful. I could easily kill just the bees as I am all powerful but no - lets kill all the other animals in the garden."

My above description is a modern take on the Noah story which is pretty evil. And will carry with it a disregard for other living animals in the name of religion for thousands of years.

God made the perfect garden and gave it to mankind, who destroyed it.
Start from scratch and make it anew

You cant do that, God created, you can only plant and nurture

Outside of God you dont exst, in Him, just a memory

a reply to: AMPTAH

Interesting thoughts. .....

Nothing in return for labor? In the most extreme of circumstances that may very well be the case as some masters would consider slaves expandable. You buy them for a coin and as long as the slave turns out a little more than that coins worth, the master lands a profit. I really wonder whether that view is the predominant way slaves were treated through the whole of history.

Perhaps culture/ religion has it's bearing, like today, not every boss is a good boss, and for some companies you do not want to work unless you have no choice.

From what I have read, and this does not pertain to actual practice, see my question above, a person could become a slave within in framework of Mosaic Law: he had to sell himself to survive. So charity did not work, this was the last resort. The value of the work to be performed by a man who would sell himself into slavery is calculated based upon the time left to the next jubilee. And when that time had come, he slave was to be set free onto his land.

And here is where charity comes in again. A master could provide a little swing into a better future for his brother.

However, later on it is written that Israelites fought wars to capture slaves. And the number of them were such that the value of a slave was almost nothing.

When you consider the two systems side by side, it is not very difficult to imagine how the introduced tradition of enslaving conquered enemies, has had a detrimental economical and social effect on the nation. And, I would surmise, on the way slaves in general were treated. If it was so easy to get a slave, why would anyone hire a day worker? A carpenter, a smith, a baker, and so forth. The way a society produces more than immediate actual need, to be sold in a marketplace, provides room for specialization. The influx of cheap labor disrupts the subsistence of the large swathe of the artisans. And so, deepens the poverty rate and thus social unrest.

In our current system, many countries have setup so called safety nets, in case a worker no longer can participate in the working for a living scheme. To fund such generosity, the governments have taken it upon themselves to collect income/ wage taxes of which a portion is allocated to provide senior workers with a pension and younger workers with a payout when sick or invalid.

To expand a little more on this subject, robots are slaves. Robots have distinct advantages over human labor. Repetitive tasks are easily done by machines and boosts production. Enter intelligent machines, robots, it has an effect on production, costs and profit, exacerbating the gap between those being able to retain themselves into a position of economical value in the middle, the profit takers on the one hand and the poor not having access to an economical viable opportunity. Working for a living has then a tendency to become a relic of the past.

It seems to me that socialism does not emerge by accident and has a value in a changing environment in an ever more complex society. Basically, what is done by nature in the family unit, or in the tribe unit, it now is being expanded to the nation unit and even the supranational and world unit.

It is easy to see how charity will not alleviate poverty. For a society to evade such dystopian effects, it seems then to become helpful to change the view of what represents a meaningful life. It would seem that a universal income would help to address the gradual change. It would provide opportunity to enjoy life, embark on study, and if called for, work.

In my view, slavery does not have to be evil, when it is employed in the sense as was originally intended like described in the mosaic law, to help a fellow who has become destitute. It requires a moral compass of honesty and compassion to help your fellow back on his feet. And moral compasses cannot be legislated or enforced.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

All Muslims support pedophilia. I see no morality in Islam whatsoever. With that in mind, your argument looks especially awful.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.

Since much of the following information will come as a shock to those who are unfamiliar with this issue, we must be careful not to jump to hasty conclusions about Muhammad. Pedophilia is one of the most serious charges that can be leveled against a person, so the term "pedophile" should not be used lightly. We must also remember that, if a man has a sexual relationship with a young girl in a culture where such a union is permissible, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the man is a "sexual predator," as the term "pedophile" implies. Christians especially should be wary of flippant name-calling. With that said, let us carefully examine Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha, recalling the Western principle that a man is innocent until proven guilty.
www.answering-islam.org...

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

The hard truth about societies that allow slavery is that kidnapping some people is legal while kidnapping others is illegal. That's not a legitimate society. A legitimate society protects the rights of all.

Human rights means rights for all humans or else human rights do not exist.

Any society without human rights is thoroughly corrupt and worthless. Consequently, such a society should not exist.

a reply to: dfnj2015

The answer to verse 18:

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Is found in the next two verse, you just needed to keep reading (and get the right english Bible too)

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 1 Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

The texts clearly does not command slavery to be practiced, it simply says if you are a "servant" then you are to serve well, not with a bad attitude. you are to show even in bad outward circumstances, you have inner peace and joy. The master will see this and may convert to Christianity. But even if he doesn't, if you suffer in this life, you can rule in the next. Be a servant here, be a ruler in the hereafter.