Gold And Silver... It’s True Worth Is Alluding Me.

originally posted by: hombero
Try boiling water in a gold pot.

You could easily do this since gold has a melting point of close to 2,000*F.

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: olaru12

ask yourself, why is Russia and China are buying so much gold.

Perhaps they see something coming in terms of the global financial system and/or dollar hegemony?

That's my bet as well....

a reply to: Hazardous1408
I will read the rest of this thread after this post. Gold is a nearly indestructible technology metal required for the scientific advancement of the human race. Without gold and other platinum group metals, we would be limited to the advancements of the 18 and 19th centuries.

Everything carbon and calcium based may crumble to dust, but even as dust gold keeps its inherent physical properties that make it relevant to technology. In fact, dust size quantities and volume of gold is all that is needed to mass produce and proliferate all the technology we use as consumers. Without this worthless gold, there would be no internet communication. None of the devices that connect to it would even exist.

And there is your value of gold. The reason it is hoarded by all the rulers, governments, monarchs and criminals of power. It is those properties that make it valuable as money. Because that money can be turned into technology through refinement.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

It's value is 'Eluding' you. Eluding is to escape or evade.
An allusion is an artistic device that makes an indirect reference to something else.

Anyways, 'value' is determined by confidence in value, practicality, and supply vs demand dynamics.

What makes it “valuable? It is accepted as a form of money just about everywhere in the world, there is not a lot of it to flood the markets, an ounce of gold will still purchase the same items now as it did 200 years ago etc etc etc.a reply to: Hazardous1408

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Saying supply and demand doesn't really answer the question unless we understand what generates the demand.

I gave multiple reasons for what creates demand for gold. Did you even read my post?

Gold has always been overvalued relative to its practical applications.

As I explained, value is what someone is willing to pay for something. It is completely subjective, so you can't ever say a commodity is overvalued. If I have a lake of water, water doesn't have much value to me and I would not pay $100 for a gallon of water. If you have no water, water is of value to you and would potentially pay $100 for a gallon of water. If you were on the brink of death by dehydration, water is of extreme value to you, and you would gladly fork over a Benjamin for a gallon of water to save your life... value is subjective.

The fact that it does not tarnish or is easy to work with does not give it value unless there is an advantage to that.

Those are literally the advantages... malleability and endurance. Ever left a bike outside for a couple months? The steel chain rusts. Gold does not which is an advantage that gives it value.

It also does not tarnish, so gold jewelry/objects will always be gold and look new. Copper will tarnish and turn green, steel will rust and turn reddish brown, gold will always be gold. That gives it value. These are probably the reasons it's associated with divinity - it's untaintable.

Gold's malleability makes it easy to craft with. Ease of physical manipulation is an advantage.

The best use of gold seems to be the one it was used for centuries which to make currrency. Now that that is no longer the case, is its current value based on new uses (of which there are quite a few) or based just on history and belief in its value.

Ok, but what you don't understand is that gold is not, and has never been a fiat money. It wasn't valuable because it could be made into coins, it was made into coins because it was valuable. The fact that it could be made into coins did not give it it's value.

Even its use as jewellery is not a sufficient answer. Do people use gold as jewellery because it's looks good or because it's an expression of wealth?

I already explained that cultures associated adornment with power and gold with divinity. Those are reasons why it's use as jewelry is a sufficient answer.

a reply to: scojak

I did read your reasons, they included religious reasons and aliens. Strangely I was not fully convinced that explains the value.

The point isn't that gold had no use, it's that many other metals are more useful and much much less valuable.

No one is disputing that value of a traded commodity is the result of supply and demand. The question is what creates such high demand for gold.

The face value of gold coins used as money has (up until the link between gold and money was removed) been higher than value of the gold in the coins. The reason for this should be fairly obvious.

I think the case that gold gets its value from its historical use as money is fairly convincing. It may not be the the only reason but I suspect it is the main one.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: scojak
The question is what creates such high demand for gold.

Well, if you want the "real" answer to that, it's because the Gods wanted gold.

If you've ever pondered over the elongated skulls, seen all across the earth, you'll realize that people started "imitating" the Gods that walked the earth, in many ways.

They bound the heads of their children, to change the shape of their skulls, to look like the ancient ruling class. And they adopted the manner and habits of those old Gods that lived here long ago.

The Gods taught men that Gold was precious and desirable, since the Gods had man dig for gold, in the first gold mines on earth. After men had put all that sweat and blood into mining gold for the Gods, they came to value the shiny metal highly too, and by "habit" and "tradition" this same idea of gold being precious has been handed down continually from generation to generation. So long, that nobody can point out the first time gold was seen, used, or desired by men.

So, the big question is, "Why did the Gods themselves want the gold so badly?"

I've heard two main theories

1) The Gods were aliens from another star system, and they needed the gold to sprinkle into the upper atmosphere of their dying planet, to protect the inhabitants from the radiation that was otherwise killing life on their home planet.

2) The Gods spun the Gold Metal into some strange form called "Monoatomic Gold" which is a white powder form that when they consumed, boosted their health and lengthened their lifespan. In other words, Gold was the "fruit" of the "Tree of Life" for the gods, that made them immortal. But, it had to be prepared in a special way, before consuming it. Just like most food requires some form of "cooking" or preparation. Gold, in fact, grows like a "tree" in the rock, with vanes branching out just like a the branches of a tree. So, if you've every seen gold inside a gold mine, you'll under stand the "tree of life" reference.

Today, of course, these ideas bounce around in various forms, with people making all sorts of claims.

But, those are the two popular explanations that exist in our human mythology that claim to give a reason for gold being popular among the Gods long ago.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: scojak

I did read your reasons, they included religious reasons and aliens. Strangely I was not fully convinced that explains the value.

I guess you missed the sections on both physical and medical utility, as well as the part about adornment being associated with power.

The point isn't that gold had no use, it's that many other metals are more useful and much much less valuable.

And more abundant.

No one is disputing that value of a traded commodity is the result of supply and demand. The question is what creates such high demand for gold.

Discussed at length already.

The face value of gold coins used as money has (up until the link between gold and money was removed) been higher than value of the gold in the coins. The reason for this should be fairly obvious.

Can you cite a source for this? You're lumping an entire planet's history of cultures and monetary systems into the statement that, up until recently, gold has not only had a different value than the coin it was struck into, but that its melt value has always been less than the value the coin represents. I doubt anyone else has ever made that statement.

I think the case that gold gets its value from its historical use as money is fairly convincing. It may not be the the only reason but I suspect it is the main one.

Well, there is the fact that gold was considered valuable long before it was ever used as a currency. The Trojans valued gold in roughly 2700 BC, but it wasn't used as a currency until the Lydians did it 2000 years late in 700 BC. It doesn't make sense that it's use as a currency would make it valuable if it was considered valuable long before its use as a currency.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

The values of metals like silver and gold, and rocks like emeralds and diamonds etc, is related to how easily they can be obtained. The rarer an item, particularly one that looks pretty, occurs in nature, the more highly it is valued. This value being entirely a human concept, nature doesn't care. Scojak has already covered the reasons for this above in detail, which I agree with

The origin of banknotes is also nothing nefarious, as you suspect it is. It is simply a more efficient way to trade. You may have two pigs, and require a horse. But I have a horse and no interest at all in acquiring two pigs, see?

Likewise, it would be very tiring hauling great bags of gold around, in order to pay gold for my horse so I can use the gold for what I may want to buy. That's why, here in the U.K., our money is in Pounds. This originally directly referred to pounds of sterling silver (hence the phrase 'pounds sterling' for our currency. Also, if can obtain any UK banknote, it says right where the sum of money is "I promise to pay the bearer upon demand the sum of" and then the note is £5, £10 etc. It was a promissory note that could be exchanged at the Bank of England for the actual amount in silver. I wonder when that practice was ended, or even if?

I presume all currencies follow the same basic model.

a reply to: scojak

I am not completely discounting any of the reasons (except maybe the aliens). I am saying I find then then unsatisfactory or further down the chain.

Take the belief in medical properties. To me the reason why people would belief it has such properties is tied up with it having value (people like to ascribe powers to things if value) rather than a cause of the value.

Same with decorative use, the reason gold has remained more or less immune to changes in fashion is because it's a display of value. It's value makes it desired jewellery rather than its use as jewellery giving it value.

No one is saying gold has no value now or historically other as currency, but rather it's value is far in excess of what we would expect from its actual practical applications.

Of course nominal value of coins was above the metal value, otherwise they wouldn't be used at the nominal value.

The primary uses of gold for the last few thousand years has been as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Its properties and scarcity made it ideal as a currency.

There is no definitive right answer, it is just a matter of opinion. However its use as s currency seems the best explanation to explain its continued high value to me.

a reply to: waynos

Scarcity is only half the equation, something can be difficult to obtain but if there is no demand it will have no value. Likewise relatively abundant resources can command a price if there is enough demand.

The origin of the term Pound is correct although there has been no point that the actual pound note as we know it has actually been convertible to a pound of silver. The phrase 'promise to pay the bearer' is simply a way of saying a pound note is worth a pound sterling in value at the bank.

The pound sterling has came on and off various schemes of convertibility over its history. It hasn't been directly convertible since the 1930's.

Gold is very conducive. Important wires that absolutely must not fail are always made of gold. Parts of space craft, ect. Silver also has value as a material for manufacturing and such.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I was reading your reply and wondering what prompted it, regarding the exchange of banknotes for actual silver, looking back at my post I see I omitted the words "in theory", which very much changes the meaning of what I wrote as if it was once common practice. This is not what I meant to say, my mistake.

a reply to: ScepticScot
Hauling around pounds of gold in bags to buy a horse is an inconvenience that I am certain has never occurred anywhere in history. I don't think anyone has ever been burdened with lugging around bags of gold, as the only people that would be hauling bags of it in pounds+ quantity were likely very wealthy noblemen with armed guards in a caravan.

Regular folks throughout history literally only carried grams of it. Like the change in your pocket, except you can purchase significantly more than the copper/zinc/nickel you carry around from day to day. A gram of gold right now, if accepted as normal currency would get you a nice dinner out for two at like Chillis, or a new budget Smart phone. Or a night out @ the club/bar. Movie night for two, pair of decent sneakers, 1-3 video games for your PC or console, a handy power tool that does the job, the list goes on.

That is one single gram, the same weight as any denomination of Federal Reserve notes. You go for an ounce, which is about the size of a US quarter but about three times as thick, and you can get yourself a budget used automobile, a nice rifle with accessories, the latest consumer drone+ gear for it, an entire new wardrobe, or a single shirt from Neiman Marcus lol, etc...

I don't know what horses cost nowadays, but I assure you one would not need to haul bags of gold with mucho weight to buy one. If they are the price of a new car, then you can get an entry level horse for ten ounces. That is just over a half pound. Not that big a deal. How many horse you plan on buying?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: scojak

Boy, you are just all over the place and you are basing your beliefs on your opinions, not research.

I am not completely discounting any of the reasons (except maybe the aliens). I am saying I find then then unsatisfactory or further down the chain.

You're foolish to discount anything that hasn't been proven to be untrue.

Take the belief in medical properties. To me the reason why people would belief it has such properties is tied up with it having value (people like to ascribe powers to things if value) rather than a cause of the value.

Or it could be because gold has medicinal benefits. BTW, the earliest recorded use of gold medicinally was from over 5000 years ago. Your belief that gold's use as currency gave it value has been debunked twice now.

Same with decorative use, the reason gold has remained more or less immune to changes in fashion is because it's a display of value. It's value makes it desired jewellery rather than its use as jewellery giving it value.

What is an immunity to a change in fashion? Whatever it is, you have no basis for this argument other than your own beliefs. I gave scientific reasons why gold is a desired (and thus valuable) metal for making jewelry, perhaps you could do the same for your opposing argument.

No one is saying gold has no value now or historically other as currency, but rather it's value is far in excess of what we would expect from its actual practical applications.

No, YOU literally said it's value is derived from it's use as a currency, which means you believe it didn't have value before that. Again, I've debunked that twice. And, as I've thoroughly shown, value is completely subjective, so you can't say it's overvalued, even if it's current spot price is in excess of what you expect it should be at.

Of course nominal value of coins was above the metal value, otherwise they wouldn't be used at the nominal value.

Well, the modern penny actually has a metal value greater than it's nominal value, so there goes that argument. More to the point, coins can have EQUAL nominal value to their metal value. The Egyptians were the first to use weighted ingots as currency. Their weight value was EQUAL to their nominal value. Later (as I previously stated) the Lydians were the first to do that with coins. Please stop opining and do some research

The primary uses of gold for the last few thousand years has been as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Its properties and scarcity made it ideal as a currency.

It's hard to know what you mean here. The primary use was actually as jewelry, art and other adornment, however those are forms of stored value and many were undoubtedly traded at some point. Either way, that's pretty obvious and not really relevant to our conversation.

There is no definitive right answer, it is just a matter of opinion. However its use as s currency seems the best explanation to explain its continued high value to me.

You're right, there isn't one, there are many. I've given several answers to prove that. Gold had value long before it was used as currency. That is a historical fact. So saying gold's use as a currency gave it its value is a definitively wrong answer.

a reply to: scojak
I think a bigger part of the problem of the penny costing about 50% more to produce than its face value is tied into energy costs rather than material. I mean #, scrap zinc, which is what pennies are mostly made up of now with a layer of copper electroplated over it is only paying like .15 cents a pound. One pound of zinc could easily produce significantly more than 15 pennies. The cost has to be energy, there is no other explanation, IMO anyways.

# nickels also cost double to produce. They are going to have to start sourcing sustainable or renewable energy during production if they intend to bring down costs.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

True. Good catch. It's the production value that's about $0.015, 1.5 cents. The metal value is only about $0.0007, .07 cents.

a reply to: scojak
Perhaps Philly, Denver and San Fran should incorporate a waste to energy reactor in their mints. They could probably just power themselves off of one or two trucks a day, AND charge tipping fees in the process. HA! Im a genius I tell you. Just solved the mints cost problems right there

a reply to: scojak

You haven't debunked anything or offered any 'scientific' explanations, you have offered your own opinion. As your opinion includes aliens and magic medical powers I am less than convinced.


I am discussing why gold is valued do highly and has been used for so long as a medium of exchange. I have at no point said gold is valueless except as a currency. I am saying that it's high value relative to other metals is a result of its association as a currency.

No major currency in the world is backed by gold the connection between nominal value of old gold coins and the gold value of course no longer exists. I already covered that in my previous post.

Jewelry point seems fairly obvious. People display gold because it has value, not that it has value because people display it.

Money as debt ( recorded as s nominal amount) had been records as far back as the Egyptians, so claiming the Egyptians used gold doesn't debunk anything

Precious metals as a currency can be explained in one of two ways :-

That a single (or limited number of) commodities week adopted over time as easier way of standardising exchange.

Or that metal was used to make records of nominal value (largely derived by taxation).

Probably both are the to done extent however I think the second is the major reason as it explains gold continued value above other commodities. . Again just my opinion (which doesn't require aliens as an explanation).

You seem very angry about what's a theoretical discussion about the nature of value. Maybe you need a nice elixir of gold to calm oh down...