Why the fall had to occur

originally posted by: chr0naut
How many people did God directly kill?

- The entire population, excluding a handful, with a global deluge.
- The entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
- Lot's wife.
- Er, the firstborn of Judah.
- Onan, Er's brother.
- All the first born sons of Egypt in Exodus.
- Pharaoh's host in the Red Sea.
- Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron.
- Burned to death a number of Israelites complaining.
- Sent plague to a number of Israelites, again for complaining.
- 10 scouts that were sent out to the Promised Land.
- Korah, Dathan, Abiram and their respective families.
- 250 Israelites for following Korah.
- 14,700 by Plague for complaining about the murder of Korah and family, and the previous 250 Israelites.
- A number of Israelites bitten to death by serpents for complaining.
- 24,000 Israelites for worshiping Baal.
- A number of Ammorites by hailstones from Heaven.
- 70-thousands depending for looking into the Ark.
- A guy named Uzzah for touching the Ark to prevent it from falling.
- A guy named Nabal because he didn't give David gifts.
- David and Bathsheba's child.
- An unnamed Prophet tricked into eating bread.
- Jeroboam's child.
- An unnamed man, for not striking a prophet that ordered him to do so.
- King Ahaziah.
- 102 soldiers for being impolite to Elijah.
- 42 young kids get mauled to death for making fun of Elisha.
- Jeroboam.
- Jehoram.
- Ezekiel's wife.
- Ananias and Sapphira.
- Herod.
- Jesus Christ, his son.

And again, I will mention all those OT commandments. I understand God is not directly responsible for any deaths that occured from these commandments being followed. At least in the sense that he didn't do the smiting himself. I can't remember Hitler ever dropping the Zyklon into the showers, or lighting the ovens, but we still hold him accountable for those things do we not?

Kill people who don't listen to Priests. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill witches. (Exodus 22:17)
Kill fortunetellers. (Leviticus 20:27)
Kill homosexuals. (Leviticus 20:13)
Kill nonbelievers. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Kill followers of other religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Kill false prophets. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, Zechariah 13:3)
Kill an entire town if anyone there worships another God. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
Kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
Kill people working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:12-15)
Kill sons of sinners. (Isaiah 14:21)
Kill in the name of the Lord. (Jeremiah 48:10)

Death for striking parents. (Exodus 21:15)
Death for cursing parents. (Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20)
Death for fornication. (Leviticus 21:9)
Death for adultery. (Leviticus 20:10)
Death for blasphemy. (Leviticus 24:10-16)
Death to followers of other religions. (Exodus 22:19)

Fast forward to Armageddon and the plan is to pretty much wipe any of us who aren't on the team out.

And I can't leave out Satan. That big baddie he gave this world to dominate...

You are suggesting that God is responsible for committing sin because He gave us the freedom to choose.

No. I mean to suggest that God is responsible for some tyrannical behavior and has successfully shifted all blame away from himself onto his scapegoat Satan. For a guy so pissed at Satan he sure let him have his way with Job.

I am not sure why you brought humans and free will into it?

Unless you suggest our free will and bad choices are responsible for God's actions.

I am 100% sure victims of abuse also believe it's all their fault.

This does not mean that God made evil or committed evil.

I disagree.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: chr0naut
Satan went to God to get permission to "test" Job's faith and would have killed Job if God had not forbidden it.

Since when does Satan obey God? Isn't his entire character built up around rebellion, disobedience, malice and jealousy? But he seeks God's permission..?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Just as I expected. Satan did nothing wrong!

#hailsatan

I didn't bother answering you because that is so clearly and obviously not true.

Satan led a rebellion against God.

Satan induced the initial disobedience of mankind.

There are suggestions in the Bible that Satan tried to destroy all of Creation, was defeated and is imprisoned here on Earth.

It is recorded that the fall of mankind introduced death into the world. Since Satan was the cause of the fall, that makes Satan responsible, by his actions, of which he was aware of the consequences, for the death of every single human - ever.

Satan is directly spoken of as a liar, destroyer and a murderer.

He has done as much wrong as he can.

Perhaps you would also like to suggest that Hitler or Stalin were good people, too? I mean, exactly what crimes did they commit?

What did satan do that was so bad in the bible? The stories say that he led a rebellion against god, but god was doing all kinds of horrible things to humans. Drowning us, burning us, poor Job? Maybe satan saw all of this and heroed up and fought back against god for mistreating us so much? Satan sounds like the hero in those stories.

It was Satan who did all those things to Job.

Satan went to God to get permission to "test" Job's faith and would have killed Job if God had not forbidden it.

But god allowed it right? He stood by and watched. If my dog bites someone, it’s my fault.

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver
a reply to: Dcopymope

Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and one day Adam said "Wow Eve, here we are. One with nature, one with God, we will never age, we will never die and all our dreams come true the instant that we have them."

And Eve said "Yeah.... It's just not enough is it?"

It's a good example of objective/subjective perspectives.

With no other humans (in the Garden at least) around to observe, they had nothing to compare themselves to, so did not know how good (compared to us) they had it. They had no way of knowing if they really were getting a fair shake from God.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: chr0naut
Satan went to God to get permission to "test" Job's faith and would have killed Job if God had not forbidden it.

Since when does Satan obey God? Isn't his entire character built up around rebellion, disobedience, malice and jealousy? But he seeks God's permission..?

Wait. Was that Satan, or Lucifer?? One is the rebellious angel who fell to earth and the other is the Adversary, God's loyal servant who tests us with temptation. Is that right?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: chr0naut
How many people did God directly kill?

- The entire population, excluding a handful, with a global deluge.
- The entire cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
- Lot's wife.
- Er, ...

...- Herod.
- Jesus Christ, his son.

And again, I will mention all those OT commandments. I understand God is not directly responsible for any deaths that occured from these commandments being followed. At least in the sense that he didn't do the smiting himself. I can't remember Hitler ever dropping the Zyklon into the showers, or lighting the ovens, but we still hold him accountable for those things do we not?

Kill people who don't listen to Priests. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill witches. (Exodus 22:17)
Kill fortunetellers. (Leviticus 20:27)
Kill homosexuals. (Leviticus 20:13)
Kill nonbelievers. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Kill followers of other religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Kill false prophets. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, Zechariah 13:3)
Kill an entire town if anyone there worships another God. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
Kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
Kill people working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:12-15)
Kill sons of sinners. (Isaiah 14:21)
Kill in the name of the Lord. (Jeremiah 48:10)

Death for striking parents. (Exodus 21:15)
Death for cursing parents. (Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20)
Death for fornication. (Leviticus 21:9)
Death for adultery. (Leviticus 20:10)
Death for blasphemy. (Leviticus 24:10-16)
Death to followers of other religions. (Exodus 22:19)

Fast forward to Armageddon and the plan is to pretty much wipe any of us who aren't on the team out.

And I can't leave out Satan. That big baddie he gave this world to dominate...

You are suggesting that God is responsible for committing sin because He gave us the freedom to choose.

No. I mean to suggest that God is responsible for some tyrannical behavior and has successfully shifted all blame away from himself onto his scapegoat Satan. For a guy so pissed at Satan he sure let him have his way with Job.

I am not sure why you brought humans and free will into it?

Unless you suggest our free will and bad choices are responsible for God's actions.

I am 100% sure victims of abuse also believe it's all their fault.

This does not mean that God made evil or committed evil.

I disagree.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I love God ❤

You stopped in the year ZERO AD though... Haven't there been any plagues, hailstones, people mysteriously dropping dead from a heart attack or stroke, etc since the year Zero? It's been 2,017 years, almost 2,018. Why was God only responsible for deaths before the year Zero? Did someone else take over?

a reply to: 3n19m470

It was also a Bill Hicks joke, or the lead-in to the routine itself.

originally posted by: 3n19m470
Wait. Was that Satan, or Lucifer?? One is the rebellious angel who fell to earth and the other is the Adversary, God's loyal servant who tests us with temptation. Is that right?

They are treated as one and the same by most Christians, as far as I know.

I did find this interesting though:

In ancient Canaanite mythology, the morning star is pictured as a god, Attar, who attempted to occupy the throne of Ba'al and, finding he was unable to do so, descended and ruled the underworld.[42][43] The original myth may have been about a lesser god Helel trying to dethrone the Canaanite high god El who lived on a mountain to the north.[44][45] Hermann Gunkel's reconstruction of the myth told of a mighty warrior called Hêlal, whose ambition was to ascend higher than all the other stellar divinities, but who had to descend to the depths; it thus portrayed as a battle the process by which the bright morning star fails to reach the highest point in the sky before being faded out by the rising sun.[46]

en.wikipedia.org...

Perhaps another thread that ties the Israelites to their Canaanite influences.

originally posted by: 3n19m470
You stopped in the year ZERO AD though... Haven't there been any plagues, hailstones, people mysteriously dropping dead from a heart attack or stroke, etc since the year Zero? It's been 2,017 years, almost 2,018. Why was God only responsible for deaths before the year Zero? Did someone else take over?

I don't know. But it stands to reason God carried on as usual. In my post I was only citing specific examples from the Bible.

How many hurricanes get blamed on the Devil and not righteous judgment?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Sometimes the writing is just bad and I'm thankful I've missed some of the movie.

I do hear what you're saying though and appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Perhaps God gave Satan self determination, the ability to make his own decisions, too?

... and so God restrained Himself from interfering, exactly like He does with us.

Do you think Satan is an automaton, programmed and controlled?

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Woodcarver

Perhaps God gave Satan self determination, the ability to make his own decisions, too?

... and so God restrained Himself from interfering, exactly like He does with us.

Do you think Satan is an automaton, programmed and controlled?

Do you have any way to back that assumption up? Saying you think this, or maybe that is not very compelling reason to believe you. If any of this were real, maybe you could check some facts instead of offering maybes.

Because it sounds like you just made that up on the spot. That is the thing about making claims that you don’t have any way of knowing about. They are really just assumptions.

I think satan is a plot tool used to scare little kids into submission. Kind of like santa but with more Fire and gnashing of teeth. I’m sure you recognize santa as a plot tool. Used to make children obey. Right? That little jewel isn’t lost on you is it? Santa is a secular version of satan which uses the carrot instead of the stick.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Because it sounds like you just made that up on the spot. That is the thing about making claims that you don’t have any way of knowing about. They are really just assumptions

I was thinking that you only made up your statement about The Code of Hammurabi but you may actually have been regurgitating something someone else made up ,seeing you claim to require prof before you believe things . To further understand the free will of the unseen realm the book of first Enoch which is referenced in the book of Jude is your go to along with 1st or 2nd Peter . have a merry Christmas .

a reply to: Woodcarver

Because it sounds like you just made that up on the spot. That is the thing about making claims that you don’t have any way of knowing about. They are really just assumptions.

Wow, why even call attention to the obvious hypocrisy you use
for an arguement. The only point in your obsessive persistence
with believers threads is do to a lack of faith in even your own
disbelief. Your assumption that makes you the sharpest tool in
the shed.would definitely be something you had to constantly
reinforce.Because somewhere inside you. You know
perfectly well you can't add it all up thru science or your disbelief.
You mock believers because what they believe is unbelievable to
you. When existence without the unbelievable isn't even close to
believable.
I'm so sorry that you haven't got the common sense to see the earth,
our home supplied with everything we need for survival, as it is hanging
on nothing in this gigsntic beautiful universe. You don't see
the miracle that supports you in your childish dismisals of the
answers that do make more sense than anything coming from you.

just clowning the answers others have is clearly all you have
to console you. Your disbelief leaves gigantic nagging questions
that would have you looking quite perposterous trying to answer
yourself.

I can see how it might upset you people would rather what
you call myth. Over having you explain it all for them. But I'll
give you a shot at it. Start any where you want. We have a
whole universe full of stuff. Surely you can explain at least
enough of it to convince me your knowledge is superior
and you are the shell answer man. Just remember the
ground rules you have set for yourself. It has to be
believable and make perfect sense with no astronomical
odds agaainst it that add up to the same damn thing
as saying God did it or the equivelent of miracle.
Oh and don't leave any gaps I'm all ears

You say God doesn't exist so back it up. GO!

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Woodcarver

Because it sounds like you just made that up on the spot. That is the thing about making claims that you don’t have any way of knowing about. They are really just assumptions.

Wow, why even call attention to the obvious hypocrisy you use
for an arguement. The only point in your obsessive persistence
with believers threads is do to a lack of faith in even your own
disbelief. Your assumption that makes you the sharpest tool in
the shed.would definitely be something you had to constantly
reinforce.Because somewhere inside you. You know
perfectly well you can't add it all up thru science or your disbelief.
You mock believers because what they believe is unbelievable to
you. When existence without the unbelievable isn't even close to
believable.
I'm so sorry that you haven't got the common sense to see the earth,
our home supplied with everything we need for survival, as it is hanging
on nothing in this gigsntic beautiful universe. You don't see
the miracle that supports you in your childish dismisals of the
answers that do make more sense than anything coming from you.

just clowning the answers others have is clearly all you have
to console you. Your disbelief leaves gigantic nagging questions
that would have you looking quite perposterous trying to answer
yourself.

I can see how it might upset you people would rather what
you call myth. Over having you explain it all for them. But I'll
give you a shot at it. Start any where you want. We have a
whole universe full of stuff. Surely you can explain at least
enough of it to convince me your knowledge is superior
and you are the shell answer man. Just remember the
ground rules you have set for yourself. It has to be
believable and make perfect sense with no astronomical
odds agaainst it that add up to the same damn thing
as saying God did it or the equivelent of miracle.
Oh and don't leave any gaps I'm all ears

You say God doesn't exist so back it up. GO!

I hope you didn’t write all that for me because I definitely didn’t read it.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Because it sounds like you just made that up on the spot. That is the thing about making claims that you don’t have any way of knowing about. They are really just assumptions

I was thinking that you only made up your statement about The Code of Hammurabi but you may actually have been regurgitating something someone else made up ,seeing you claim to require prof before you believe things . To further understand the free will of the unseen realm the book of first Enoch which is referenced in the book of Jude is your go to along with 1st or 2nd Peter . have a merry Christmas .

Im not even sure what you are talking about. Have you read through the code of hammurabi?

originally posted by: chr0naut

Since the universe is incredibly varied and complex, and seems to follow rules, it may have been constructed. If it were constructed, there must be a constructor as one possibility for the existence of the universe.

Science tells us that the structured order of all matter must degrade over time. Science does not explain why the whole universe isn't all in the simplest lowest energy state, despite the fact that we can see that all things flow towards such entropy. The best science can do is to propose a beginning of simplicity (and therefore high entropy) and that over time this developed variation and difference to the extreme levels observed now. That process is anti-entropic and does not fit with known science.

The idea of an anti-entropic direction of the early universe integrates very well with the idea of a constructor of the universe who has hyper-intelligent attributes. They rationally reinforce each other as paradigms. There is rationality and reasonableness in such a paradigm.

To suggest that a pre-state of nothingness, expanded and condensed into the known universe, driven by random forces, is the unreasonable and unreasoned conclusion. We know from observation and testing that the process of change of states of matter and energy do not go in that direction - ever. That is why the laws of Thermodynamics are called laws, rather than postulates.

unreasonable.

There is an open question on entropy and the early universe but if you want to talk of "unreasonableness" and scientific ideas and scientific thinking than it's silly to hijack the entropic question and use it to back up a faith based idea that one of the many messianic, savior demigod mythologies is actually true.

The scientific approach - scholarship on the historicity of the bible - puts Jesus as a man (not a supernatural demigod) and the only people who disagree are biased by being actual Christians.
The evidence does not support that particular faith based ideology as being literal.

You can claim faith but using entropy to provide evidence for any mythology, be it Zeus or Judaism, doesn't make sense.

a reply to: randyvs

You basically explained why I don't waste my time engaging in lengthy discussions with people like Woodcarver. I just give my answers, and let the seeds grow where they may.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I hope you didn’t write all that for me because I definitely didn’t read it.

Why? Don't be skeered. You definitely got the time.

a reply to: randyvs

Whatever he may have to say, I'm pretty sure we have heard it before ad nauseam. I get the feeling that if he really had something useful or interesting to say, he would have said it by now.